to preface: as much as the title sounds like a critique, it’s not. it’s just a realization i had while thinking about baldur’s gate 3, and it’s good they provided the options they did, for me to have this realization in the first place
i’m a transgender man, and i’ve been on hrt for several years, i haven’t had bottom surgery, and i’m intimately familiar with the effects testosterone has on a vulva. i’ve also been in trans femme circles long enough to know how estrogen affects a penis (if you are unfamiliar, you can read about each at https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/second-puberty-masc#genital-changes and https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/second-puberty-fem#genital-changes)
and it’s really weird to realize that most people cannot visualize what i have going on in my pants. a cis woman’s vulva is fundamentally not accurate (which is basically what’s presented as your option). for me, obviously; for some trans masc people, it is accurate
i don’t know how trans femme people feel, but i could see the argument for them going either way. i’d like to hear what you think, if you feel represented by feminine body shapes with a penis selected as your genitals
and also, it would be interesting to see bottom surgery options represented. even if that’s just the same models but with the “is this from surgery” option ticked or something
finally. my concluding thoughts are that i’d really like to see how big a half-orc’s tdick gets (presuming that half-orcs are subject to the same sex hormones humans are and/or that they can substitute their hormones similarly. i mean that’s it’s own can of worms there)
i know i’m not ending off on any kind of a question but i wanted to share my feelings about this with people and hear how this made others feel, as well
If I understand you correctly, what you’re suggesting would require programming in an entire system for trans bodies, a bunch more 3d models to make and to integrate into that system, as well as many small changes all over the rest of the game to make it all work.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that would be amazing and I too would like to see it, I don’t think it’s gonna be worth the investment for AAA games made for profit. Hell, I haven’t seen a system like that in explicitly adult games, and games like that would actually use that system.
They provided multiple vulvas and multiple penises to choose from already. Would it cost more to model an additional few? Yes. But it wouldn’t require an entirely new system or significant programming. You could add them to the list of selectable options.
I originally thought it was about deeper levels of customization that more realistiaclly portrayed trans bodies, which would be imo complicated. But you are absolutely right that just another variant of already existing selection would be reletively trivial.
i like the way you think. i was just thinking they could throw in a “androgenized vulva” and “estrogenized penis” models and call it a day. their options (in bg3) hardly represent the spectrum of possibilities even for cis people, and a couple models aren’t that much investment
BUT, what you suggested is much better. and i bet it could leverage existing technology we already have for resizing / interpolating facial features (with some adaptation). it’s definitely tech companies are investing in already
no, i think the cost actually isn’t that high, but i think the stigma (genitals lol) and lack of awareness are the bigger hurdles around it
Well if we’re talking about something more than just more options in a selector, then it can be as complicated as dev wants it to be. A separate 3d model or some adjustments to an existing one if you select a trans option in character creator would not be that hard. But it’s still time and effort of programmers and modellers and we know how much studios like to overwork and underpay them. I guess my point wasn’t that it’s too hard, but rather that it’s too hard to be deemed important by the money people.
Personally I think there can be actually artistic value in this. Character customisation can be a way to worldbuild before the game even started. BG3 is fantasy, so maybe there is magic or rituals used by trans people to get the bodies they want. Maybe the rituals leave a mark, so a trans fem would have scars from that ritual. What if some trans people got there by making deals with fey so a trans masc might have a chest they traded from a fey prince.
Or imagine if cyberpunk2077 was actually good and had done something with this. Transhumanism is a big thing in cyberpunk genre, and there is already borgware in the ttrpg, why not make nsfw borgware? If I can replace all my limbs with katanas I can make THAT katana cybernetic too.
i agree the incentive would need to be there, but given existing character creation technology, i don’t think the bar is as high as you think it would be. at least as far as strictly implementation is concerned
that said, you have big ideas and i like them and i hope you continue sharing them
Thank you :3
I guess I just don’t understand why my video game character needs genitals. Maybe I’m just out of touch but it seems so pointless to me.
There are good reasons for gender representation. That being said, often, like in CP2077, it’s to stir controversy for marketing.
You wouldn’t say that if it was you not being represented.
There’s sex scenes in the game. I want a character to look like me. It’s only controversial to uptight folk.
You wouldn’t say that if it was you not being represented.
I’m all about representation and I don’t think that it was an incorrect choice to have in the character creation, on its face. However, you don’t ever see your character’s genitals after creation, even in the sex scenes, from my recollection.
It’s only controversial to uptight folk.
That is what I think was the point and what I meant. Uptight folk are loud about being offended by “naughty” things. Adding explicit content in the character creation that has no material effect elsewhere is fairly low-effort and does have a positive effect for some. But, it outages the most annoyingly vocal group who shriek “think of the children”. So, more people heard about the game due to the few publicity.
Can’t really fault them as they did something positive for representation but, if it had a material impact on gameplay or story, it would be much better.
The only thing I’ll miss about my penis is peeing standing up outdoors. If my party has to pee at any point it’ll come up.
I think you underestimate how powerful the experience of seeing yourself represented is. I’m 38 and I grew up in a time when just being gay was illegal. I found exactly one book in our school library on my search for the subject of “sex change” - and so paranoid was I about being found out that u would read it only in the library so as not to be the person who checked this book out.
That one book was an autobiography of a trans woman who discovered who she was sometime in the 60’s. That’s it. That’s all I could find. That one story. Search engines sucked (yahoo mostly?) At the time. That’s all I had to go by. Before I came across that I never even realized that it was possible.
If this game can spark conversations or be the “one thing” where they’re represented then so what? Cyberpunk did something similar and I didn’t see accusers come out saying 'twas for publicity only.
You know, you’re right. I think it’s more that I underestimated the magnitude of their contribution and focused more on my perception of authenticity and motive. I’m near the same age as yourself and while I’ve had personal struggles due to mental health, nothing that I am intrinsically has ever been illegal or unrepresented, to my knowledge, so, magnitude isn’t something that I’m really equipped to accurately judge.
If you say that it was helpful in any way and made you feel more represented, that’s what matters.
You can take off all your clothes and run around nude if you so desire. So you can definitely see them, if you make that choice.
Same reason you pick hair or makeup or face structure or voice. You can make your character represent a person you want represented.
I guess the difference for me is that I’m not running around with my genitals exposed. Maybe for my barbarian but otherwise it’s pointless to me. I’m all for inclusion though and not trying to imply I’m upset. I 100% agree with OP that if they are going to do it they should try to be as inclusive as possible. I just saw it during creation and thought, weird, why do I need to customize my genitals.
I should also add that I feel the same way about graphic sex scenes in my video games. I’m not a big fan. I enjoy pornography I just don’t want it on my video games.
I agree. Not to sound too puritan but I think it would be okay if games were just like “bulge” or “no bulge” and left it at that.
I’d bet there still be people who be asking for a “kinda bulge”. (and others of course wanting B U L G E).
I bet mods for this game and other games where it matters could take care of this issue and give what people want.
On the other hand, my body, nudity, and sex and sexuality is a natural part of my life. I don’t see why it “shouldn’t” be included.
But I also don’t put too much weight on sex, so to say. It’s a part of life to me. It’s not any more special than something like eating. Being sex-positive and casual about sex is just how it goes, and so it’s nice to see that in a game as well. It just feels natural, and so more immersive.
Yeah, same goes for me. For those that haven’t played, BG3 had an option to turn off nudity altogether. It really doesn’t come into play with the exception of romance scenes (which are optional) And a few cut scenes where characters are nude but not sexy nude. All that being said, sex in video games is almost always awkward and choosing my genitals was not expected when I ticked the option for nudity.
Yeah I get ya. It’s a part of your body though and I get why devs want people to feel like they have the agency to choose (even if it’s imperfect)
This is why I try to keep an open mind. I have no idea how it might make others feel and inclusion is important to me. I may have thought it was pointless but it’s probably adding a lot for some and that is a good thing.
Hell yeah
lmao, ironically your comment reminded me that there are nulloplasties as well, which would be a cool option to see represented, as well as various intersex options…
ahem more to your point, though. while they currently have a very limited effect on gameplay, it doesn’t mean that they will never have an effect on gameplay. for example, one small thing that the devs of bg3 could do is have your bedmates remark on your genitals to you (i am being VERY presumptuous here that they don’t, but i would be VERY surprised if i was wrong). anywhere from remarks about it not being what they expected, to them saying they had a good time anyways, etc
it doesn’t necessarily need to be gratuitous because interactions with genitals aren’t necessarily gratuitous. maybe you learn another party member had the same surgery as you or something, y’know. or you run into the surgeon who did your bottom surgery on your quest
there’s a lot more we could be doing, than we currently are
So, I haven’t played BG3, but considering that it’s a fantasy setting, I am surprised that it seems to be same as irl for trans stuff. Compared to the pathfinder universe which had since the 1st edition magical hrt potions and salves which work way better than irl as well as straight up insta-transition magic items in 2e, DnD seems kinda boring.
it doesn’t touch on transition or related things, afaik, aside from allowing you to freely select both your appearance and your genitals (afaik). so it’s hard to say what it has or doesn’t have available
that said, i feel like… you lose something with “perfect” transition. for example, in a world where you could remove breast tissue without scarring, i might still have a double mastectomy, because my transness is part of who i am. obviously, there are people who would love to have that, and that’s great for them and they’re not less trans for it. but i think there’s a beauty in “imperfect” transition
i feel odd about feeling this way, though. almost certainly, medicine and technology will progress to the point where trans people will be indistinguishable from cis people. and i’m sure, at that point, these ideas will be considered backwards or coping or whatever…
anyways. i guess this is a long winded way to say, pathfinder/2e may have the nicer and more expedient options, but they’re also maybe not as interesting
That’s an interesting perspective, regarding the question of not just “where you are”, but also “how you got there” being something that can factor into what you see as part of your identity.
Closest thing I have is with weight gain and loss. When I get back down to my target weight, I’ll still have stretch marks that’ll show that I at one point was much larger. If I could just “be” my target weight without the physical evidence of the past, I’d opt for that path, so it’s interesting to me to consider that someone might take a different view. :)
Oh, random based Pathfinder take! I love seeing it get love over DnD because yes, it’s so much more inclusive and interesting. From a lore perspective and a mechanic perspective.
That’s not even getting into the issues with WotC as a company.
I was interested in pf2 for about a year now, but only got into it after the ogl thing. Now I honestly am baffled how 5e maneged to be so popular when 4e, pf1, and pf2 are all so much better than it as tttrpgs, and that only sticking to fantasy.
From just a TTRPG perspective, 5e is so much easier to get into than 4e or Pathfinder 1. Character creation is relatively simple and level ups are all outlined in tables. Have not tried 2e, but at least at first blush is still more complex. I have no love for Wizards, but as far as fantasy RPGs, I would call it medium crunch vs the heavy crunch of those you mentioned.
As a long time GM and player of 5e, PF2 is much more intuitive. It just gives you more character options and people get intimidated, that doesn’t mean it’s more complicated though. It’s still as easy as multiple choice, you just have more choices.
Combat is even easier and was a way smoother experience to teach to my players with PF2’s three action economy, instead of explaining the esoteric action, move action, reaction, etc. of 5e. I’ll die on the hill that PF2 is not more complicated than 5e simply because it presents more options at level 1 (and every level thereafter making ACTUALLY unique PCs). One of my pet peeves with criticisms against PF2, and it’s normally by people who haven’t actually played it.
If you try PF2, my advice is to drop your preconceptions. The biggest complaints from players was when they kept comparing to how they did things in 5e. It’s not 5e, it does things differently and has a different game design philosophy. It’s much more balanced so you’re not going to be doing as much damage as a single player and you have to use team work. Don’t even get me started on encounter design with 5e’s garbage CR rating, I was flabbergasted when I saw how amazingly easy and balanced it was to pick monsters for an encounter in PF2. It’s just a simple math equation for an exp pool, and then you “buy” monsters from the pool of exp. Once you use the entire exp pool, it will be balanced to the average party, the math is that tight.
I loved 5e for the years I played and ran it, but you’re really missing out if you don’t dive deeper into PF2. I’m frustrated I didn’t switch sooner quite frankly, it would’ve made my job as a GM much, much easier and my players would’ve been making cooler characters way earlier. My partner just made a 4ft tall stuffed clown PC that has the juggler feat and can go limp to pretend to be an inanimate object Toy Story style, no home brewing, that’s just options you have.
TL;DR: It’s really not that complicated, you and/or anybody reading this should really give it a try. If you don’t want to try PF2 that’s fine but I implore you to at least move to another system because WotC is not a great company anymore (as much as it pains this nerd heart). Tales of the Valiant by Kobold Press is basically 5e with the serial numbers filed off if you’re really in love with the actual mechanics of 5e. Shadowdark is another good, newer system that’s really rules light and hearkens back to OSR DnD days.
/rant
Great point! That is why it is important to keep an open mind. It may seem pointless to me but it may be very important to others.
So far no one wants to have sex with me in BG3. I thought Gale did for a bit but I must have pissed him off at some point. Maybe they did put some indication in the game that we will see later.
my condolences, gale is my boy and i’m going to be heartbroken if he realizes / remembers he’s extremely heterosexual partway through LOL
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i did not know any of this, thanks for sharing
Same. It’s super interesting and I wasn’t fully aware of it either.
I knew some things changed, but I didn’t realize how exactly or the extent of it.
The other day one of the few people I know who has a similar fairly unique genital configuration as me made an offhand remark about representation in this game and how they realized how none of the choices fit them. I honestly never considered modeling a character after myself, but realized that’s true for me as well. Ultimately I don’t particularly care, but it would be cool and extremely surprising if it happened.
like how much variety in body shapes does the game have? like coming from a transfem perspective i find the all too common “coventionally attractive cis woman” bodytype with penis stapled on to be pretty boring. otherwise i think it seems neat ^_^
They have a pretty good selection considering, including both strong and not-strong varients of many races for both masc and femme bodies. They however have no finer customization of your body shape; i.e. there’s no sliders in the way of hips/waist/head/chest size, level of muscularity, etc, so you’re just selecting a preset body shape to “paint” onto.
