To be fair being attracted to minors IS a mental illness as those people never chose it and can hardly do much about it, except for taking therapy like you do with other mental illnesses.
Likewise, being about who they are attracted to and again being something they did not choose, it also IS a sexuality.
More than anything else it is a curse. Imagine having to live with an attraction to people you can’t hope of actually dating, imagine having no way to love somebody you’re attracted to without harming them.
Now those people I have seen in the “MAP” space have a tendency to actually favour acting on their urges one way or another which is horrible, so I have no problem with your last paragraph. What I do not like is the other two, framing pedos as wicked people.
There is a stigma on pedophilia which is justified but also framed very poorly. The behaviour should rightfully be stigmatised, but the people should be treated for what the are: mentally sick and in need of help.
The stigma on the people that is well exemplified in your second paragraph is exactly what makes it hard for morally sound pedophiles to go and seek help.
Everything I said is about pedos that insist on being called MAPs. Calling them pedos doesn’t inherently frame them as wicked people. A pedo can only get help if they first recognize they’re a pedo.
They definitely need therapy for their mental illness. The problem is when they claim it’s a sexuality, neurodivergence or a disability, to try to normalize the condition/behavior or feel like a victim. Kids are victims, pedos are mentally ill.
Conflating mental illness with sexuality is wrong. Pedophilia is not a sexuality. Some pedos may be “morally sound” if they are filled with disgust at their thoughts, never act on them and instead make every effort to change. Sexuality is something you can’t change and isn’t inherently abusive.
For example, beastiality is abusive. It’s a mental illness that can be helped through therapy. Sexualities don’t need to be helped, and attempting to “fix” someone’s sexuality in therapy would be abuse.
Well those are your definitions, and of course under them I am wrong and you are right. But I don’t think they are correct.
Would you be able to find a definition of “sexuality” or “sexual orientation” that says it’s not inherently abusive? I’ll wait but I don’t think you will.
You can’t control who you are attracted to, and to be fair I think saying otherwise would be rather reactionary.
If you are attracted to people or things who can consent to your intimacy - or even to objects - that’s great. If you are attracted to kids or animals it’s not great at all. But they are all sexual orientations, and you don’t get to decide through legality which ones are not.
I don’t disagree with you on the disgust for pedo behaviour and the attempts of tbe “MAPs” to make it acceptable. I disagree with the stigma on those who have that attraction BECAUSE of the attraction itself rather than their actions.
Legality has nothing to do with it. Abuse is abuse whether or not it’s legal.
And you don’t need that to be explicitly excluded from the formal definition of sexuality for it to be obvious. Asking for a definition mentioning that is like asking for a definition of strawberries that explicitly mentions they’re not cyanide.
If sexualities included mental illnesses and abusive behaviors, we would treat them as such. Putting pedophilia and beastiality in the same category as normal sexualities is not only wrong, it’s harmful and disparaging to LGBTQ+.
You need it in the definition if you want to claim it as such. If cyanide strawberries were found in nature they would be part of the definition of a strawberry, and claiming otherwise would be silly.
Generally speaking what may seem obvious to you may very well not be. I could claim that donkeys are fish, and should you complain that nowhere is said that, I would reply “that’s because it’s obvious”. Not the best of arguments.
If sexual orientation is the classification of what you are attracted to then men, women, everything in between, kids, horses and warplanes are a - semantically - “valid” sexual orientation.
As for harming LGBTQ+ I disagree with that. Whenever someone says “I don’t care who or how you fuck” they generally add “as long as they are consenting adults” - clearly it’s not that obvious.
With this said I think I did my best to make my case and I do not think I can do more if this is not enough, so I will disengage from further discussion.
The core issue in your argument is being unable to define pedophilia as either a sexuality or a mental disorder.
Either pedophilia is an inherent part of a persons sexual identity that is uncontrollable and unable to be changed, or it is a disorder that requires treatment which can lead to beneficial outcomes for the individual.
That is a fair objection, and I don’t know why you got downvoted - here is my upvote for what that matters.
First of all I would argue that the difference between a “quirk” and a mental illness is whether it messes with your life, and pedophilia very much does - in that sense a sexuality can be a mental illness if it interferes with your mental wellbeing.
Secondarily would say that whether pedophilia can be “cured” through therapy - making it a mental illness in your definition - or it can only be mitigated, is something that therapists know and I don’t.
Regardless, it makes no difference towards the point I was trying to make: people who suffer from it should not be stigmatised because of it, as it makes it harder and scarier for them to seek help.
First of all I would argue that the difference between a “quirk” and a mental illness is whether it messes with your life, and pedophilia very much does - in that sense a sexuality can be a mental illness if it interferes with your mental wellbeing.
Being gay often messes with ones life and mental health. Is homosexuality a mental illness?
Secondarily would say that whether pedophilia can be “cured” through therapy - making it a mental illness in your definition - or it can only be mitigated, is something that therapists know and I don’t.
There is treatment, ranging from Drug to Behavioral therapies, and from what I can find they are pretty effective.
My “definition” does not involve “curing” anything. I said treatment can lead to positive outcomes, not that it will. Plenty of known mental illness’ and disorders have terrible outcomes with or without treatment.
The point is pedophilia is either a sexuality or a disorder and it cannot exist as both.
Regardless, it makes no difference towards the point I was trying to make: people who suffer from it should not be stigmatised because of it, as it makes it harder and scarier for them to seek help
If what you are trying to say is “Pedophilia should be de-stigmatized in order to see more people seek help and have better outcomes.” then simply say that.
Pedophiles need help before they hurt someone. Accepting Pedophiles for being Pedophiles and normalizing the behavior in anyway is not the way to go about it because it is not normal behavior.
It is not my responsibility to accept them for who they are as a prerequisite to them seeking help.
I do not care how “hard” or “scary” it is to seek help in the current climate. It is their responsibility, and only their responsibility, to deal with their issues before something bad happens.
To be fair being attracted to minors IS a mental illness as those people never chose it and can hardly do much about it, except for taking therapy like you do with other mental illnesses.
Likewise, being about who they are attracted to and again being something they did not choose, it also IS a sexuality.
More than anything else it is a curse. Imagine having to live with an attraction to people you can’t hope of actually dating, imagine having no way to love somebody you’re attracted to without harming them.
Now those people I have seen in the “MAP” space have a tendency to actually favour acting on their urges one way or another which is horrible, so I have no problem with your last paragraph. What I do not like is the other two, framing pedos as wicked people.
There is a stigma on pedophilia which is justified but also framed very poorly. The behaviour should rightfully be stigmatised, but the people should be treated for what the are: mentally sick and in need of help.
The stigma on the people that is well exemplified in your second paragraph is exactly what makes it hard for morally sound pedophiles to go and seek help.
“To be fair” to “morally sound” pedos?
Everything I said is about pedos that insist on being called MAPs. Calling them pedos doesn’t inherently frame them as wicked people. A pedo can only get help if they first recognize they’re a pedo.
They definitely need therapy for their mental illness. The problem is when they claim it’s a sexuality, neurodivergence or a disability, to try to normalize the condition/behavior or feel like a victim. Kids are victims, pedos are mentally ill.
Conflating mental illness with sexuality is wrong. Pedophilia is not a sexuality. Some pedos may be “morally sound” if they are filled with disgust at their thoughts, never act on them and instead make every effort to change. Sexuality is something you can’t change and isn’t inherently abusive.
For example, beastiality is abusive. It’s a mental illness that can be helped through therapy. Sexualities don’t need to be helped, and attempting to “fix” someone’s sexuality in therapy would be abuse.
Well those are your definitions, and of course under them I am wrong and you are right. But I don’t think they are correct.
Would you be able to find a definition of “sexuality” or “sexual orientation” that says it’s not inherently abusive? I’ll wait but I don’t think you will.
You can’t control who you are attracted to, and to be fair I think saying otherwise would be rather reactionary.
If you are attracted to people or things who can consent to your intimacy - or even to objects - that’s great. If you are attracted to kids or animals it’s not great at all. But they are all sexual orientations, and you don’t get to decide through legality which ones are not.
I don’t disagree with you on the disgust for pedo behaviour and the attempts of tbe “MAPs” to make it acceptable. I disagree with the stigma on those who have that attraction BECAUSE of the attraction itself rather than their actions.
Legality has nothing to do with it. Abuse is abuse whether or not it’s legal.
And you don’t need that to be explicitly excluded from the formal definition of sexuality for it to be obvious. Asking for a definition mentioning that is like asking for a definition of strawberries that explicitly mentions they’re not cyanide.
If sexualities included mental illnesses and abusive behaviors, we would treat them as such. Putting pedophilia and beastiality in the same category as normal sexualities is not only wrong, it’s harmful and disparaging to LGBTQ+.
You need it in the definition if you want to claim it as such. If cyanide strawberries were found in nature they would be part of the definition of a strawberry, and claiming otherwise would be silly.
Generally speaking what may seem obvious to you may very well not be. I could claim that donkeys are fish, and should you complain that nowhere is said that, I would reply “that’s because it’s obvious”. Not the best of arguments.
If sexual orientation is the classification of what you are attracted to then men, women, everything in between, kids, horses and warplanes are a - semantically - “valid” sexual orientation.
As for harming LGBTQ+ I disagree with that. Whenever someone says “I don’t care who or how you fuck” they generally add “as long as they are consenting adults” - clearly it’s not that obvious.
With this said I think I did my best to make my case and I do not think I can do more if this is not enough, so I will disengage from further discussion.
The core issue in your argument is being unable to define pedophilia as either a sexuality or a mental disorder.
Either pedophilia is an inherent part of a persons sexual identity that is uncontrollable and unable to be changed, or it is a disorder that requires treatment which can lead to beneficial outcomes for the individual.
It cannot be both.
That is a fair objection, and I don’t know why you got downvoted - here is my upvote for what that matters.
First of all I would argue that the difference between a “quirk” and a mental illness is whether it messes with your life, and pedophilia very much does - in that sense a sexuality can be a mental illness if it interferes with your mental wellbeing.
Secondarily would say that whether pedophilia can be “cured” through therapy - making it a mental illness in your definition - or it can only be mitigated, is something that therapists know and I don’t.
Regardless, it makes no difference towards the point I was trying to make: people who suffer from it should not be stigmatised because of it, as it makes it harder and scarier for them to seek help.
Being gay often messes with ones life and mental health. Is homosexuality a mental illness?
There is treatment, ranging from Drug to Behavioral therapies, and from what I can find they are pretty effective.
My “definition” does not involve “curing” anything. I said treatment can lead to positive outcomes, not that it will. Plenty of known mental illness’ and disorders have terrible outcomes with or without treatment.
The point is pedophilia is either a sexuality or a disorder and it cannot exist as both.
If what you are trying to say is “Pedophilia should be de-stigmatized in order to see more people seek help and have better outcomes.” then simply say that.
Pedophiles need help before they hurt someone. Accepting Pedophiles for being Pedophiles and normalizing the behavior in anyway is not the way to go about it because it is not normal behavior.
It is not my responsibility to accept them for who they are as a prerequisite to them seeking help.
I do not care how “hard” or “scary” it is to seek help in the current climate. It is their responsibility, and only their responsibility, to deal with their issues before something bad happens.