- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
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Here’s the problem:
- After spending 4 years saying that our elections are secure, how do you start a serious investigation into this without sounding like whining hypocrites at best?
- Even if you prove to be 100% in the right, do you honestly think that you’re going to get people to believe it?
- Even if you prove to be 100% in the right, doesn’t that also just prove that our elections really aren’t secure and can be manipulated pathetically easily?
- The number of people needed to pull a stunt like this off would be in the thousands. Yet, not a single person has come forward and talked? Not a single election worker saying “Hey, I opened up a box of ballots to count, and all of them were just votes for Trump and nobody else.” Not a single worker tasked with tracking the shipment of these ballots reporting any anomalies? Remember. Every state went redder. You don’t think that in blue states like California or even purple states like Wisconsin, that if there were any anomalies they wouldn’t be screaming about it on social media before they were done unpacking the damn box?
- Wouldn’t this have just lead to several anomalies in the voting count in at least some cities? Bulk cramming votes by the tens or even hundreds of thousands would surely lead to the number of votes cast in some states or counties being higher than the number of registered voters.
- How do you prove that it wasn’t just a bunch of low-information Trump voters showing up just to support him, not caring about the other downballot races?
Personally, I’d rather stick with the narrative that our elections are safe and secure, and the US voters simply voted against their own interests. The best we could hope for beyond that is the GOP saying that the election was stolen in 2020, the Democrats saying it was stolen in 2024, and nobody believing our elections are secure at all heading into 2026 and 2028.
And even if you want to put all of that aside. A stunt like this would make Mission Impossible seem like Sesame Street by comparison. Think of the work it would take on a national level to pull this off with absolutely nobody talking and without a trace. Now look at the people Trump has leading the charge. What in the name of Jesus’s favorite camel makes you think that any of those fuckwits have the mental capacity to pull that off?
These claims have little to no basis in reality and should be immediately disregarded just like Trump’s claims of 2020. The fact of the matter is that we lost.
EDIT: People are saying these were digital counts that were manipulated. The argument still stands, though. For that argument to be valid, that would mean that our elections are so insecure that Trump and the brainworm crew were able to hack into voting systems nationwide, en masse, and without anybody noticing. Thousands of people would still have to be involved. There would be a digital trace showing something happened, even if we couldn’t figure out exactly what or by whom. Someone would have made a human error that would stick out like a sore thumb. Digitally or physically, you are not pulling that kind of stunt at that level without anybody noticing, particularly not those lead paint eaters.
Regarding your points:
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That would be a difficult discussion, yes, but the difference between now and then is that there are red flags that should, at the least, warrant a recount. Unlike 2020, we’re not saying it’s rigged, but rather that a recount is needed to validate and verify.
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The same way you would try to prove anything else like this, you put facts out in front of people, bring in experts, and attempt to bring the truth to light. If there was something nefarious uncovered then we present it, otherwise it shows that things are working correctly.
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Yes and no. It means that tabulation machines are manipulatable and that we need improved security there. Hand counting ballots is still secure as the red flag here is a digitally inflated count, which is what a physical recount would prove or disprove.
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You didn’t read the letter, or at least didn’t understand it. They’re not talking about fradulent physical ballots. There’s no reason for anybody to be looking at them for multiple reasons. Secondly, the letter states that swing states are the ones specifically that need to be looked at.
5/6. We know that a good portion of the population that is eligible to vote doesn’t. We also have historical data that gives us the averages for when voters only vote for the president and nothing else. That range is 2-5%. Seeing that number jump above 10% is eye catching and can be indication that something is wrong. So again, it’s not a claim that things are rigged, but a warning that the numbers indicate that they need to be looked at closer and be recounted to ensure they are correct.
Claiming out elections are secure and ignoring something like this just allows the GOP to continue to use it. If they get away with it this time and are the ones in power, how is anyone supposed to prevent them from doing it again? The whole reason were having to deal with the idea of rigged elections is because the GOP and Trump decided fuck up that system our trust and replace it with fear and lies.
On the last point, these claims do have a basis in reality looking at the data. The math shows a departure from historic norms, which calls it question how accurate the counts are. Asking for a recount is not a problem, but saying and doing nothing when it looks like something is wrong is a problem.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree, then. I think we’re both on the same side and ultimately want the same things. And I’m not saying your points are invalid. But at the same time, I don’t see any real evidence to support it, I have absolutely no reason to believe that Trump’s team of all people would have the brain capacity necessary to pull it off, and I think chasing down conspiracy theories with little tangible evidence is going to do far more harm than good.
Again, the best that we would be able to hope for is to say “Our elections are so insecure that Trump and his band of human crayon eaters was able to hack into systems nationwide without a god damned person noticing. Oh, and Kamala Harris actually won the election. Believe us!” Because you will not get any further than that with your average American voter.
The undeniable facts are this: Kamala Harris got 10+ million less voters than Joe Biden. Which means that 10+ million Biden voters stayed home. The GOP had absolutely nothing to do with that. If those 10 million democrats came out to vote, we’d have won the election in a landslide even if Trump was able to pull off that little stunt.
We lost because 10 million Democrats stayed home. What the GOP did or did not do has absolutely no impact on that fact. No investigation will change that fact.
Why would you think it was Trumps team and not Russia?
Does it really matter? The end result would still be the same. “Our elections were so insecure that ________ were able to go into networks across the nation, alter or invalidate the votes of over 10 million people, and escape undetected.” Doesn’t matter who you put in that blank. The message would be the same. “Our election systems our compromised, Trump certainly isn’t going to fix it in 4 years, so it won’t matter who you vote for in 2028 since _________ is probably just going to decide the result again anyway.”
We lost because 10 million Democrats stayed home.
Show me the evidence that they stayed home, rather than their votes having been suppressed or not counted.
Sure.
Choose one:
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United states elections are secure; hacking voting systems to invalidate or alter over 10 million votes would be an impossibility, and any attempts to do so would be caught and thwarted by a team of networking experts using at least the bare minimum of networking security at multiple levels.
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United states elections are so insecure that ____________* can hack into voting systems nationwide undetected, alter or invalidate the votes of tens of millions of people across all 50 states and hundreds of districts, exit with impunity and escape detection for two weeks and counting.
- can be anything you want. Trump’s team. Trunp supporters. Russian hackers. North Korean hackers. Aliens. Doesn’t matter. The point would be that it’s apparently so easy to change the vote counts that your vote doesn’t even matter; the election is going to be decided by whatever hacker was most successful anyway.
Pick one. The two cannot coexist simultaneously. For fraud to exist at that scale, you’re saying that our election integrity is about as secure as my grandmother’s wireless hotspot. A problem of that scale can’t be fixed in four years, rendering it irrelevant to even bother trying in 2028. Trump would make sure of that.
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Aaaaand what are the chances this will happen?
I laughed my ass off at the pathetic, baseless attempts to dispute the 2020 election, but never questioned their legal right to do so (which they failed miserably at). If suspicious Harris supporters believe they have convincing evidence of manipulation, then let their claims be examined and proven or disproven by a recount or in a court of law. Call it copium, but I’d rather check these claims out and be disappointed than pre-emptively assume they’re bullshit.
The number of people only voting for Trump and leaving the rest of the ballot blank is super weird. Seems like a great reason to do one of those hand recounts the GOP loves.
Call your reps about this people. I’m calling Senator Bennett’s office on Monday. Can’t hurt.
Or voting Democrat for everyone but Trump.
The tell: A historically absurd number of Trump-only bullet ballots or undervote ballots.
There are always a handful of voters who cast a vote in one race which they care about, and do not make other selections on the ballot. These are called bullet ballots. In Presidential Races since 1980, these bullet ballots rarely account for more than 1% of the total votes including in Mr. Trump’s winning 2016 election and losing 2020 election, and when they do it warrants further investigation. In 2024 in the 43 non-swing states, bullet ballots make up a nominal >1%. In the seven swing states the numbers are so high to be unbelievable, unprecedented and demanding of further investigation. Here is analysis from totals as of late Nov. 12th
Here are the unprecedented results of drop-offs in the two western swing states:
AZ - 123K+ 7.2%+ of Trump’s total vote. Enough to reverse the outcome.
NV - 43K+ 5.5%+ of Trump’s total vote. Enough to exceed recount threshold.
It is my belief these two states have illegally added votes.
For comparison, examine Trump’s 2024 results in three states which border AZ and NV. They have equally passionate Trump supporters, but have the normal levels of drop off or bullet ballots.
ID <2K 0.03% of Trump’s total.
OR <4K 0.05% of Trump’s total
UT <1K 0.01% of Trump’s total.
In the case of Idaho and Utah, Mr. Trump was a run-away winner and had no need to add votes. In the case of Oregon, Ms. Harris was a run-away winner and adding votes to Trump’s total would add risk without adding value.
The same pattern of large numbers of drop-off votes or bullet ballots exists in the totals of MI, NC, PA, WI.
123,000 Arizonans voted only for President & nobody else? That is weird.
Source?
It doesn’t say. It does also mention
Maricopa County AZ, seems to be the source of the vast majority, perhaps nearly all, of the AZ bullet ballot voters for Trump. If these ballots were introduced it would require co-conspirators working inside the tabulation center.
Which - is at least believable.
Sounds crazy on both accounts. Either a record number of people voted for only one person or the fraudsters thought, “Eh, President is the only office we care about right?” I don’t know how they track votes but another key factor could be how dispersed the votes were. If it was fraud I’m guessing they’d be sloppy and you’d see the bullet voters show up in huge chunks.
I’d think it’d be easy enough to check - take these suspect ballots and make sure the people are alive, and then see if they say they voted. Get more than 10 that say they didn’t, and we’re off to the races.
AZ - 123K+ 7.2%+ of Trump’s total vote. Enough to reverse the outcome.
As odd as it is, you are not cramming 123,000 ballots in there without anybody noticing. It’s just not going to happen. Even spread out, that’s still thousands if not tens of thousands of ballots per district. Somebody would have noticed. Somebody would have said something. Some counties would have vote counts higher than the number of registered voters. There would be a giveaway. You don’t cram 7.2% of Trump’s total vote in a state as big as Arizona and leave no trace. That’s just impossible.
EDIT: People are saying these were digital counts that were manipulated. The argument still stands, though. For that argument to be valid, that would mean that our elections are so insecure that Trump and the brainworm crew were able to hack into voting systems nationwide, en masse, and without anybody noticing. Thousands of people would still have to be involved. There would be a digital trace showing something happened, even if we couldn’t figure out exactly what or by whom. Someone would have made a human error that would stick out like a sore thumb. Digitally or physically, you are not pulling that kind of stunt at that level without anybody noticing, particularly not those lead paint eaters.
This is us noticing.
About 2 weeks to late, for starters.
It takes this long to count stuff and get detailed information
Just kinda how it is with the size of this shit
If it happened, it was a digital attack. Which means (a) this should have been found and defeated in the first place by even rudimentary network security, and (b) it should have been caught within seconds, not weeks. “Hey, Bob. We’ve got these preliminary totals that are all over the map here, might wanna come take a look at this.” If your poll numbers show that 50,000 people showed up to the polls and sent in early ballots, the number in that system had better be 50,000. If it’s 50,001 or 49,999, you have a problem.
For the numbers to be off to the tune of ten million people nationwide, and it wasn’t caught live and in real time, that is a systemic failure of epic proportions and actively makes the situation worse. Because it means that not only was some group of people allowed to enter our systems with impunity, alter the counts, and escape undetected, but it means that even the most rudiementary checks for accuracy are so bad that they simply may as well not exist, and the “election security” that Democrats have been touting for the past 4 years will also prove to be nonexistent.
Like I said. They knew how many people showed up to the polls. They knew how many people sent in early ballots. Before even looking at a single vote, if the total number of votes cast in the system is not equal to the number of people who physically showed up to the ballot, they need to double check and find out where the error is. If that vote is off by thousands, then counting shouldn’t even begin and several people should be jumping up and down screaming like everybody’s hair was on fire. By about 6 PM or shortly after whatever time that voting closed on the east coast, the entire east coast should be aware that there is something very, very wrong here. Incompetence wouldn’t even begin to describe a level of failure at that scale if it didn’t.
It doesn’t have to be Trump himself - could be anyone with an interest in seeing him elected, such as Russia or Elon Musk
They’ve been replacing election officials with partisan hacks for several years now. Especially in arizona. They are really pissed at the more populated areas that tend to go democrat.
Does it mean the election was stolen. No. Would it be criminally negligent not to investigate this after Republicans told us they were going to do this and put people in place to do this. Yes.
Would it be criminally negligent not to investigate this after Republicans told us they were going to do this and put people in place to do this.
It is not criminally negligent to ignore claims that have no basis in reality. In fact, it would be more criminally negligent to waste taxpayer money to give credibility to these claims by investigating.
Only one of these two sentences can hold true
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Our elections are safe and secure, with multiple fali-safes in play to ensure said integrity.
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Our elections are so insecure that people can simply drop off thousands or even millions of fake ballots across the country, mix them in with the real ones, and absolutely nobody notices. In multiple states.
Again. Think of what it would take to be able to cram tens of thousands of ballots into the ballot box without a trace in multiple states across the country. Thousands of people would be needed to print, fill out, drop off, mix in, and count these ballots. And not one person has said something? Not one person let the cat out of the bag? Not one county ended up with an anomoly where there were more votes than voters? And it still doesn’t explain the 10 million or so Biden voters who just stayed home.
We lost, and these theories have no basis in reality. If they did, we’d know it by now.
It is not criminally negligent to ignore claims that have no basis in reality.
Here’s your reality basis. With them every accusation is a confession. They’ve been putting partisan election deniers in positions of control in many state and country elections office. Just for this sort of thing.
We lost, and these theories have no basis in reality. If they did, we’d know it by now.
I never said we didn’t. But as I posted the theories are strongly based in reality. General polling shows ignorant young and minority men swung hard for trump. White people in general held to tradition, carrying water for fascism as well. He likely did win. These sort of outliers should be checked however. And no, as long as we rely on states to set procedure and police themselves. No I don’t trust them implicitly. These are the groups that implemented poll taxes and practiced heavy handed disenfranchisement. Chances are this is nothing. But it is worth being sure.
Ok, but ask yourself…even under a best case scenario, what do you expect to realistically accomplish? Trump won, but by slightly less?
Because if you prove anything, that also comes with the side effect of proving that our elections are not secure. You just proved that __________ successfully hacked voting machines across multiple counties in several swing states without being detected. It doesn’t matter who you put in that blank. Trump’s cronies. Russian hackers. North Korean hackers. Chinese hackers. Killer clowns from outer space. All of the above. Doesn’t matter. You’ve just told the entire population of the United States that their vote really doesn’t matter because the election is going to be decided by whatever hacker group is most successful. Good luck trying to get any voter to believe our elections are secure ever again. No matter what happens, the losing side will always just blame “the hackers”. Those lawsuits against Dominion and the other voting machine manufacturers? Yeah, they’re going to be giving that money back, because you just proved that any old hacker group actually could get into them at will and change the outcome of the election. Fox News will gladly take back their 800 million. Good luck getting anyone to believe that either the 2020 or 2024 election was legitimate. Or any other election ever again, for that matter.
Look if you want to gaslight someone. Gaslight someone else. I’ve been paying attention and got receipts.
If someone verbally and physically threatens poll workers. Putting people into offices they have no qualification for. Who’s only goal is to deny a Democrats victory, and there are unusual or suspicious circumstances. If we do not look into it. We don’t deserve a democracy. And yes if he wins by less. He wins by less. But at least we know. This isn’t a baseless wild goose chase like the fascists wanted. If the Democrats were the ones making the threats and taking these actions and a similar discrepancy or unusual anomaly popped up. I would still say we need to look into it. If this isn’t something worth looking into. Something worth understanding. Then what is?
I’m not trying to gaslight a thing.
Try telling people “Our elections are secure” while also telling them “Trump supporters changed ballot counts in voting systems across multiple states without detection.”
Pick one. The two cannot exist simultaneously. If you pick the former, your investigation is irrelevant. If you pick the latter, nobody will ever believe our elections are secure again. If you try to pick both, you’re the one gaslighting.
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The letter is suggesting that the vote counting machines were compromised, adding fake digital votes to the total after it had counted all of the real physicsl ballot votes. The letter suggests that a hand count of the physical voted would show the manipulation, because the extra digital votes would not show up in the physical ballots.
I hate to say it, but this seems like copium. I’d love to be wrong about that.
Same.
While i believe they would have the resources to do this technically, i think voter suppression from the right, the failures in the biden/harris whitehouse, and plane old racism/misogyny is a rather solid argument.
The lack of leaks from these absolute colanders is really hard to believe.
It would probably need a lot of internal cooperation, and he just doesn’t go into that. But the excessive bullet ballots only being in swing states is pretty weird, honestly. I wonder how hard it would be to recount/reverify in maybe 2 states as a pilot.
I dont think itd be hard, just costs money
Well good thing they have massive reserves now
There’s also the issue that Harris and the Democrats spent the last four years repudiating the idea that there was anything insecure about our elections systems, and being the big-tent party that favors process over outcome and desperately clings to democratic norms and the status quo, it seems to me that she’d likely be very loathe to call them into question now.
And even if she were so inclined, she already conceded (and pretty quickly, at that). Does she even have standing to demand a recount now? And even if she should still have standing, would SCOTUS agree?
FWIW, personally, these statistical anomalies seem compelling enough to me that I agree we should go ahead and double-check. I’m not holding out much hope that it will happen, though.
I don’t know. When Republicans tell you they are going to rig the system for years. When Republicans take action to rig the system for years. It seems like it’s pretty plausible. Now whether or not it would ultimately change the outcome. That’s a good question and no one should get their hopes up. But Democrats absolutely should be investigating this.
DAnon
He’s gonna destroy the country anyway; fuck it in say we try. If the numbers in this article are accurate, then anomalies exist. Might as well find out if it’s a “nothing burger”
Might as well do the check - you sure as fuck aren’t going to be able to check anything out in 2028, if we even hold an election that year.
Do the check, see where the info leads, no brainer
I’m not experienced enough to know for sure if those claims would truly hold water, but to my layman mind, it sure does sound like a compelling case to at least do a hand count.
When Mr. Musk announced his $1M lottery for people to go online and sign a pledge to vote for Trump, I became personally suspicious of why such a promotion would be done. I signed up to see what information he wanted and what the pledge actually stated. He did not want to know people’s socials or send them texts. To sign up you had to provide your street address. That was all they cared about. Once they had the people’s names, and street address this would allow for building a pool of ghost voters who could logically be marked for fake ballots, structured in a manner which matched ePollBook and precinct data.
Elmo surely wouldn’t try such a thing.
They had pledged to vote though, I would assume the vast majority of them would have done just that, so how are they “ghost voters?” I feel like I’m missing something here.
Might have done it for the $1 million. Then never planned on voting or only if they won.
Yeah, maybe. Compare the list against a list of unlikely voters. Would be tricky to make sure no attempted double votes were cast. The theory is that these people were voted for, by mail? Or that an inside worker at the polls fed the votes into the machines? In the 2nd case maybe investigators could look at the times the “bullet ballot” votes were cast to see if there were irregularities indicating trouble, like them being clustered around certain times of day.
I mean, check it out just to rule out the possibility, I guess. The letter spells out how to determine whether this was the case or not - do a hand recount.
people don’t understand computers or hacking just like they don’t understand global warming or math
all they need is 1 0day exploit to get the code for the machines
and 1 0 day exploit on the machines
the idea that it’s impossible or unlikely now is absurd, justlike the idea it was impossible in 2020 was absurd, which is why it was so apalling to call the Jan 6 protesters insurrectionists instead of protesters
I believe this man. Some countries with an interest in this election have brilliant hackers,just beyond what I could ever understand, but I’m not a programmer or hacker, just someone who likes linux
no one will believe or understand this person, just like no one will believe in global warming and stop believing in jesus until climate ecological collapse
oh well
