Working-class parents often express interest in vouchers. But in Arizona, the nation’s school choice capital, these families aren’t using them due to the inaccessibility of private schools and the costs of transportation, meals and uniforms.
But it’s not just low income kids they keep out, it’s also the difficult kids’ with bad home lives, behavioral problems, and special needs. Mind you, public schools legally have to enroll every child, as they should.
My personal experience in public schools was a “one size fits all” and if you didn’t fit that one size, your education was subpar. Finally getting into a school that approach education differently (Vocational Technical) let me not only access the ability to learn the material, but also exceed the common exceptions.
Is there a way you can see to fix the Charter School problems while still preserving the concept that a school that can approach education in a different way that every other school?
I don’t know how your school was set up, but vocational technical high schools are often publicly run, even by the same school district that runs the local public school system.
I’ve never come across charter VT schools. Maybe they’re common, maybe not. I just don’t have any knowledge of them.
Charter Schools are generally something different, and specifically designed to cater to largely middle and upper middle class students that are heading on college track. While there are charters that do cater to low-income areas, they’re still targeting kids who are on a college track, and excluding those who they feel aren’t.
They’re private entities that operate under a legal charter, which allows them to siphon off public education funding in lieu of charging students tuition.
And I’m not even saying there’s no use case for charter schools, but I am saying is that they have been converted into a trojan horse. So whether or not they can be salvaged, would depend on legislation that prohibits, or limits, the type of behaviors I described previously.
I don’t know how your school was set up, but vocational technical high schools are often publicly run, even by the same school district that runs the local public school system.
Mine was publicly run, but I’m old enough to pre-date any US Charter Schools. My point in bringing up Vocational/Technical schools is that they were the rare exception to primary education that didn’t follow the traditional public school model. That difference meant success to me where the traditional public school meant mediocre performance and lack of achievement.
Charter Schools have the opportunity (I’m not saying they all do) to have that difference for a student that needs it outside of the traditional model of public schools.
Charter Schools are generally something different, and specifically designed to cater to largely middle and upper middle class students that are heading on college track.
I have no doubt that those exist, and may even be in the majority of Charter Schools, but I’ve also seen many the specialize in one type of education (STEM focused, Aerospace, Art, etc) or education to accommodate students with different learning methods (ADHD, Dyslexia, etc).
And I’m not even saying there’s no use case for charter schools, but I am saying is that they have been converted into a trojan horse. So whether or not they can be salvaged, would depend on legislation that prohibits, or limits, the type of behaviors I described previously.
This is the root of my question: Is there a way you can see to fix the Charter School problems while still preserving the concept that a school that can approach education in a different way that every other school? What would you laws/rules would you put in place to fix this without simply making Charter Schools illegal?
You’re calling out all the problems of what we have today as Charter Schools, and I can see they can be valid criticisms. How can we fix those so that the value of a different kind of education that Charter School’s can bring that Public Schools don’t can be achieved?
There’s nothing wrong with a school district operating different types of schools, such as VT schools…
Not one piece of my critique was about “educational styles or content”, it was entirely based on private entities siphoning off public funding for schools that are allowed to discriminate, not serve as a public resource, and disregard many, if not most, of the laws protecting students and public schools.
You’re conflating your experience with a VT to Charter Schools, and it’s not the same. Plenty of districts run specialized schools, for both blue collar and white collar track students.
I am sure there are plenty of white papers that deal with Charter School reform, and they would have much better ideas than I do on the subject.
Off the top of my head, they could start with:
Legally requiring transparency in admissions and a publicly accountable admissions processes. No more smoking mirrors that magically result in suspiciously high achieving, upper income, and low behavioral issues student bodies, relative to the surrounding areas.
Or better yet, abolishing them as they exist, and folding them into the public education system. If their is a parent demand for differentiated and specialized advanced public schools, have an established process to do that within a school district.
Charters are already stealing public funds, so why shouldn’t they be held to the same laws and regulations that protect all students?
The thing is, I would bet you that the majority of new Charter schools, like within the last 20 years, would shut their doors if they were forced into the public school system. Because student discrimination and having a publicly funded quasi private school, that keeps out the undesirables, is the point.
There’s nothing wrong with a school district operating different types of schools, such as VT schools…
Its not common. Its rare, and its needed more. That is my point. If public schools won’t, and Charter Schools will, I want students to have the ability to get education that matches their compatible way of learning.
Not one piece of my critique was about “educational styles or content”, it was entirely based on private entities siphoning off public funding for schools that are allowed to discriminate, not serve as a public resource, and disregard many, if not most, of the laws protecting students and public schools.
I understand ALL of that. I’m not saying that is your point. I’m expanding the conversation slightly because it sounds like you only have negative things to say about Charter Schools. I’m the one introducing the “educational styles” argument, because most of my personal experience with public schools was NOT compatible with my learning style. I’m guessing I’m not alone. In this way public schools are failing students.
You’re conflating your experience with a VT to Charter Schools, and it’s not the same.
They share a similarity in that they can offer different type of curriculum besides the traditional college prep track. In that way they can be the same. Yes, I’m saying in ONE WAY they are the same.
Plenty of districts run specialized schools, for both blue collar and white collar track students.
A very small percentage to, and my experience is that those that do offer different education are in largely high income districts where they have the money to offer those in addition to their regular college prep public school offerings.
Or better yet, abolishing them as they exist, and folding them into the public education system.
This is what I was looking for. Thank you for sharing that your opinion is that they shouldn’t exist.
Charters are already stealing public funds, so why shouldn’t they be held to the same laws and regulations that protect all students?
One-size-fits-all really means “one-size-fits-none-well”. Public School are failing students that don’t learn the way public schools teach. If public schools can’t or won’t adapt teaching/curriculum methods, I don’t accept that students just need to suck it up and fail. I’ll accept that Charter Schools may not be the answer, but we also know that Public Schools, as they are today, isn’t the answer either.
I appreciate your honest and you sharing you opinion even if I disagree with you.
It’s not rare. I went to public school in a medium sized, mixed income district, in a red state, that had VT schools, and alternative pedagogy schools for creative and gifted kids. All run by the public school district.
I don’t know what you think a Charter School is, but when I say educational style, I mean alternative pedagogies. Which is is how charter schools typically differentiate themselves publicly, but again, they’re not mentioning out loud the other aspects that I’ve laid out previously.
Which is why although you say you understand what I’m saying, I don’t think you really do. And maybe that’s my fault for not properly articulating everything, but I’m on a phone and these comments are already way too long to properly review and manage.
I didn’t say they shouldn’t exist. You asked me for ideas for reform. I suggested reading real academics who study this issue, but for the sake of conversation, one of my suggestions was folding the concept of charter schools into the public education system. As in, let them fulfill they’re publicly stated objective of developing alternative pedagogies schools for differently abled students, but bring them into the public sector, with all the accountability, transparency, and legal protections for all students.
To be fair, I can see you’re being genuine, but not sure you understand the money and influence behind these pushes for charter schools for the past 2 decades.
I’m wondering if part of the disconnect is that your envisioning charter schools from when you were a kid, versus what they are now after the explosion they’ve had in the last 20 years.
I feel that you sincerely believe this movement is done benevolently, and for the purpose of educating and creating better students. While I don’t deny that those schools do exist, nor that many parents and students believe that is the mission statement, that’s not as relevant to the political forces driving these changes.
This movement has gained political traction in the last two decades from the same people who push vouchers, and they do it with intent to degrade truly public education infrastructure, and create publicly funded private schools for the correct social and economic classes.
Because otherwise, there’s no reason why it couldn’t have been done within the framework of public education, just like my old school district did.
Oh, and public education isn’t failing. America has some of the best public schools in the world, and some of the worst. This comes down to a lot of factors, including the fact that schools are primarily funded by local property taxes. Meaning wealthy schools get more resources, and poor schools get a whole lot less, even if they’re right next to each other.
those that do offer different education are in largely high income districts where they have the money to offer those in addition
The first thing I’d want to know is actual data on this. What districts offer these? What percentage? Where? I don’t know enough about this to see a pattern but I know at least one district that is not high income. Is it rare or common? Is it because my state has among the best education systems in the country? Is it because we’re willing to spend more on our kids? Is it because a high cost of living area means that even low income is not low relative to other parts of the country? Gotta ask, but is it political?
Chances are the best answer is to do the hard work, spend the money to improve public education everywhere. I know that’s not always practical, and it would take too long to benefit current kids, but we really need to find a way.
School vouchers have the appearance of helping individual students immediately, but starving the school system just makes the overall problem worse
Given that these vouchers seem to be in effect subsidizing more well-off, ditch the vouchers. As a parent in a good school system, I did send my kids to private school on my own dime. I would never vote for vouchers because I understand it benefits people like me at the expense of the public school system. I’ll always vote to strengthen that. Granted I’d use the vouchers if they were there, I’m not stupid, but they shouldn’t be there.
But I understand the issue: we chose private schools exactly because the one size fits all approach really doesn’t, even in a good school system, and we felt that our kids would be better served with more focussed attention.
I don’t have a good answer but starving your public school is not it. Starving your public school and feeding the better off is very much not it. For your question: we so have public vo-tech schools and I know a kid taking that route in another district. It can be done. I don’t know it well enough to comment on effectiveness, but it exists
My personal experience in public schools was a “one size fits all” and if you didn’t fit that one size, your education was subpar. Finally getting into a school that approach education differently (Vocational Technical) let me not only access the ability to learn the material, but also exceed the common exceptions.
Is there a way you can see to fix the Charter School problems while still preserving the concept that a school that can approach education in a different way that every other school?
I don’t know how your school was set up, but vocational technical high schools are often publicly run, even by the same school district that runs the local public school system.
I’ve never come across charter VT schools. Maybe they’re common, maybe not. I just don’t have any knowledge of them.
Charter Schools are generally something different, and specifically designed to cater to largely middle and upper middle class students that are heading on college track. While there are charters that do cater to low-income areas, they’re still targeting kids who are on a college track, and excluding those who they feel aren’t.
They’re private entities that operate under a legal charter, which allows them to siphon off public education funding in lieu of charging students tuition.
And I’m not even saying there’s no use case for charter schools, but I am saying is that they have been converted into a trojan horse. So whether or not they can be salvaged, would depend on legislation that prohibits, or limits, the type of behaviors I described previously.
Mine was publicly run, but I’m old enough to pre-date any US Charter Schools. My point in bringing up Vocational/Technical schools is that they were the rare exception to primary education that didn’t follow the traditional public school model. That difference meant success to me where the traditional public school meant mediocre performance and lack of achievement.
Charter Schools have the opportunity (I’m not saying they all do) to have that difference for a student that needs it outside of the traditional model of public schools.
I have no doubt that those exist, and may even be in the majority of Charter Schools, but I’ve also seen many the specialize in one type of education (STEM focused, Aerospace, Art, etc) or education to accommodate students with different learning methods (ADHD, Dyslexia, etc).
This is the root of my question: Is there a way you can see to fix the Charter School problems while still preserving the concept that a school that can approach education in a different way that every other school? What would you laws/rules would you put in place to fix this without simply making Charter Schools illegal?
You’re calling out all the problems of what we have today as Charter Schools, and I can see they can be valid criticisms. How can we fix those so that the value of a different kind of education that Charter School’s can bring that Public Schools don’t can be achieved?
There’s nothing wrong with a school district operating different types of schools, such as VT schools…
Not one piece of my critique was about “educational styles or content”, it was entirely based on private entities siphoning off public funding for schools that are allowed to discriminate, not serve as a public resource, and disregard many, if not most, of the laws protecting students and public schools.
You’re conflating your experience with a VT to Charter Schools, and it’s not the same. Plenty of districts run specialized schools, for both blue collar and white collar track students.
I am sure there are plenty of white papers that deal with Charter School reform, and they would have much better ideas than I do on the subject.
Off the top of my head, they could start with:
Legally requiring transparency in admissions and a publicly accountable admissions processes. No more smoking mirrors that magically result in suspiciously high achieving, upper income, and low behavioral issues student bodies, relative to the surrounding areas.
Or better yet, abolishing them as they exist, and folding them into the public education system. If their is a parent demand for differentiated and specialized advanced public schools, have an established process to do that within a school district.
Charters are already stealing public funds, so why shouldn’t they be held to the same laws and regulations that protect all students?
The thing is, I would bet you that the majority of new Charter schools, like within the last 20 years, would shut their doors if they were forced into the public school system. Because student discrimination and having a publicly funded quasi private school, that keeps out the undesirables, is the point.
Its not common. Its rare, and its needed more. That is my point. If public schools won’t, and Charter Schools will, I want students to have the ability to get education that matches their compatible way of learning.
I understand ALL of that. I’m not saying that is your point. I’m expanding the conversation slightly because it sounds like you only have negative things to say about Charter Schools. I’m the one introducing the “educational styles” argument, because most of my personal experience with public schools was NOT compatible with my learning style. I’m guessing I’m not alone. In this way public schools are failing students.
They share a similarity in that they can offer different type of curriculum besides the traditional college prep track. In that way they can be the same. Yes, I’m saying in ONE WAY they are the same.
A very small percentage to, and my experience is that those that do offer different education are in largely high income districts where they have the money to offer those in addition to their regular college prep public school offerings.
This is what I was looking for. Thank you for sharing that your opinion is that they shouldn’t exist.
One-size-fits-all really means “one-size-fits-none-well”. Public School are failing students that don’t learn the way public schools teach. If public schools can’t or won’t adapt teaching/curriculum methods, I don’t accept that students just need to suck it up and fail. I’ll accept that Charter Schools may not be the answer, but we also know that Public Schools, as they are today, isn’t the answer either.
I appreciate your honest and you sharing you opinion even if I disagree with you.
It’s not rare. I went to public school in a medium sized, mixed income district, in a red state, that had VT schools, and alternative pedagogy schools for creative and gifted kids. All run by the public school district.
I don’t know what you think a Charter School is, but when I say educational style, I mean alternative pedagogies. Which is is how charter schools typically differentiate themselves publicly, but again, they’re not mentioning out loud the other aspects that I’ve laid out previously.
Which is why although you say you understand what I’m saying, I don’t think you really do. And maybe that’s my fault for not properly articulating everything, but I’m on a phone and these comments are already way too long to properly review and manage.
I didn’t say they shouldn’t exist. You asked me for ideas for reform. I suggested reading real academics who study this issue, but for the sake of conversation, one of my suggestions was folding the concept of charter schools into the public education system. As in, let them fulfill they’re publicly stated objective of developing alternative pedagogies schools for differently abled students, but bring them into the public sector, with all the accountability, transparency, and legal protections for all students.
To be fair, I can see you’re being genuine, but not sure you understand the money and influence behind these pushes for charter schools for the past 2 decades.
I’m wondering if part of the disconnect is that your envisioning charter schools from when you were a kid, versus what they are now after the explosion they’ve had in the last 20 years.
I feel that you sincerely believe this movement is done benevolently, and for the purpose of educating and creating better students. While I don’t deny that those schools do exist, nor that many parents and students believe that is the mission statement, that’s not as relevant to the political forces driving these changes.
This movement has gained political traction in the last two decades from the same people who push vouchers, and they do it with intent to degrade truly public education infrastructure, and create publicly funded private schools for the correct social and economic classes.
Because otherwise, there’s no reason why it couldn’t have been done within the framework of public education, just like my old school district did.
Oh, and public education isn’t failing. America has some of the best public schools in the world, and some of the worst. This comes down to a lot of factors, including the fact that schools are primarily funded by local property taxes. Meaning wealthy schools get more resources, and poor schools get a whole lot less, even if they’re right next to each other.
The first thing I’d want to know is actual data on this. What districts offer these? What percentage? Where? I don’t know enough about this to see a pattern but I know at least one district that is not high income. Is it rare or common? Is it because my state has among the best education systems in the country? Is it because we’re willing to spend more on our kids? Is it because a high cost of living area means that even low income is not low relative to other parts of the country? Gotta ask, but is it political?
Chances are the best answer is to do the hard work, spend the money to improve public education everywhere. I know that’s not always practical, and it would take too long to benefit current kids, but we really need to find a way.
School vouchers have the appearance of helping individual students immediately, but starving the school system just makes the overall problem worse
Given that these vouchers seem to be in effect subsidizing more well-off, ditch the vouchers. As a parent in a good school system, I did send my kids to private school on my own dime. I would never vote for vouchers because I understand it benefits people like me at the expense of the public school system. I’ll always vote to strengthen that. Granted I’d use the vouchers if they were there, I’m not stupid, but they shouldn’t be there.
But I understand the issue: we chose private schools exactly because the one size fits all approach really doesn’t, even in a good school system, and we felt that our kids would be better served with more focussed attention.
I don’t have a good answer but starving your public school is not it. Starving your public school and feeding the better off is very much not it. For your question: we so have public vo-tech schools and I know a kid taking that route in another district. It can be done. I don’t know it well enough to comment on effectiveness, but it exists