With that sort of thinking, much of the planet should be uninhabited.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, just pointing out that since the first human put an animal skin over their shoulders we’ve been developing technology to live in places that we’d otherwise not be able to exist in.
I think there is a big difference between the passive warming / cooling of clothing vs the huge energy requirement, spent resources and emissions required to basically run your entire home / office / factory / hotel as a giant fridge.
Ancient people developed technology to cool their buildings long before electricity. Windcatchers, awnings, evaporative coolers combined with good old-fashioned thermal insulation were all very effective technologies for keeping cool in otherwise inhospitable places.
There are serious talks about reintroducing these in some places to reduce ballooning electricity use from AC.
I think the debate in that is passive vs active rather than just using technology. If the Hoover Dam were to become inoperable, would residents of Las Vegas be able to survive? And if it’s questionable what does aid, or worse a middle of the desert mass evacuation, even consist of? And this avoids even discussing current residents who in the face of increasing temperatures and energy prices may not be able to keep up with cooling needs.
Oh, absolutely. That would be an instant massive humanitarian disaster. I was more trying to respond to this though:
just pointing out that since the first human put an animal skin over their shoulders we’ve been developing technology to live in places that we’d otherwise not be able to exist in.
I think there is a big difference between the passive warming / cooling of clothing vs the huge energy requirement, spent resources and emissions required to basically run your entire home / office / factory / hotel as a giant fridge.
Essentially going through some of the ancient technologies used for cooling buildings.
If the Hoover Dam becomes inoperable, the entire Southwest US is in trouble. It provides water for farms and power, both mostly in California. Las Vegas would actually be the last to feel the effects of Lake Mead drying up because they’ve installed a deeper “straw” to draw water from, along with a pumping station.
There’s a lot of farming being done right in the US Southwest now that’s only profitable because the water is massively subsidized. The first thing to do is to make them pay something closer to the real cost. Nobody should be growing rice, cotton or almonds in the Central Valley. That’s just burning public money and squandering a scarce resource. If they can’t figure out a more suitable alternative crop, let 'em go bust.
As for A/C, it’s a lousy, wasteful solution to hot climates compared to passive construction, insulation, heat pumps and other technologies (some very old). But anyone in Vegas with a pool or lawn needs some immediate education. And I’d be reluctant to encourage people to live in places like that when there are more temperate places they could live in if they wanted to.
The farmers have the most senior water rights, so there’s a lot of legal hurdles to that solution. It’s definitely something that needs to happen though. Letting them go bust means the Southwest US needs to get food from somewhere else, most likely shipped in on trucks. It’s not as simple as people make it out.
Heat pumps are AC in reverse, so why’s that so much more efficient? And most new homes are built with good insulation and lawns are illegal for new homes. Most grass has been removed and replaced with rocks, only older homes are allowed to keep their lawns. There’s cash incentives to get them to remove it though. In fact, Las Vegas has actually decreased it’s water usage in the past few decades, while increasing the population.
More energy is used in the US to heat homes than to cool them, so I’m really not seeing why people should live elsewhere. At least not from a pure energy use standpoint.
Serious talks? At least insulation is the standard in new construction, at least in Germany. Works for winter and summer. Add ventilation with energy recuperation, solar panels and a heat pump, many homes produce more energy than they consume in a yearly scale.
Hold up there pardner, homes producing more energy than they consume? That sounds vaguely communistic-like, and we don’t take kindly to that sort of thinkin’ round here. Just gonna hunker down and let the invisible hands of Jesus and the market take care of us 'cause this here’s the greatest nation on the whole earth. /S
I meant to imply that thermal insulation is a prerequisite to any cooling tech, new or old. Looking at my comment again, I just worded it badly.
That’s pretty cool. Getting modern insulation on older apartment blocks here in Romania is an uphill struggle. You need every occupant of the block to sign off on it, and that always results in massive headaches from someone who doesn’t want to pay the 30 Euros per person.
It’s easier and more efficient to wrap yourself up with blankets and covers and use minimal heating (with decent home insulation) to warm yourself up than it is to cool down when you are too hot.
Its pretty US centric though so I think one would have to contrast that against the UK and Europe which generally has homes that are brick and concrete rather than lumber, we also have (I believe) tighter insulation regulations and - just generally - vastly smaller homes.
I think if US houses were built to European regs and sizes then the numbers would look much different.
huh. I was just looking at air conditioners being really inefficient and it being really hard to keep a thing cool passively because all the stuff we do/have makes heat nowadays.
Edit: Many older houses don’t have AC in Vegas. They use evaporative cooling mostly.
So they waste more water but less energy.
Colder climates have their challenges, but tend to have more energy-efficient solutions than hot ones. Then there ae the wonderful places with brutally cold winters and boiling summers, so you get the worst of both worlds.
Humans probably shouldn’t be living in these conditions if they can’t survive without AC, no?
With that sort of thinking, much of the planet should be uninhabited.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, just pointing out that since the first human put an animal skin over their shoulders we’ve been developing technology to live in places that we’d otherwise not be able to exist in.
I think there is a big difference between the passive warming / cooling of clothing vs the huge energy requirement, spent resources and emissions required to basically run your entire home / office / factory / hotel as a giant fridge.
Ancient people developed technology to cool their buildings long before electricity. Windcatchers, awnings, evaporative coolers combined with good old-fashioned thermal insulation were all very effective technologies for keeping cool in otherwise inhospitable places.
There are serious talks about reintroducing these in some places to reduce ballooning electricity use from AC.
I think the debate in that is passive vs active rather than just using technology. If the Hoover Dam were to become inoperable, would residents of Las Vegas be able to survive? And if it’s questionable what does aid, or worse a middle of the desert mass evacuation, even consist of? And this avoids even discussing current residents who in the face of increasing temperatures and energy prices may not be able to keep up with cooling needs.
Oh, absolutely. That would be an instant massive humanitarian disaster. I was more trying to respond to this though:
Essentially going through some of the ancient technologies used for cooling buildings.
If the Hoover Dam becomes inoperable, the entire Southwest US is in trouble. It provides water for farms and power, both mostly in California. Las Vegas would actually be the last to feel the effects of Lake Mead drying up because they’ve installed a deeper “straw” to draw water from, along with a pumping station.
https://www.snwa.com/where-southern-nevada-gets-its-water/our-regional-water-system/intake-no-3.html
There’s a lot of farming being done right in the US Southwest now that’s only profitable because the water is massively subsidized. The first thing to do is to make them pay something closer to the real cost. Nobody should be growing rice, cotton or almonds in the Central Valley. That’s just burning public money and squandering a scarce resource. If they can’t figure out a more suitable alternative crop, let 'em go bust.
As for A/C, it’s a lousy, wasteful solution to hot climates compared to passive construction, insulation, heat pumps and other technologies (some very old). But anyone in Vegas with a pool or lawn needs some immediate education. And I’d be reluctant to encourage people to live in places like that when there are more temperate places they could live in if they wanted to.
The farmers have the most senior water rights, so there’s a lot of legal hurdles to that solution. It’s definitely something that needs to happen though. Letting them go bust means the Southwest US needs to get food from somewhere else, most likely shipped in on trucks. It’s not as simple as people make it out.
Heat pumps are AC in reverse, so why’s that so much more efficient? And most new homes are built with good insulation and lawns are illegal for new homes. Most grass has been removed and replaced with rocks, only older homes are allowed to keep their lawns. There’s cash incentives to get them to remove it though. In fact, Las Vegas has actually decreased it’s water usage in the past few decades, while increasing the population.
More energy is used in the US to heat homes than to cool them, so I’m really not seeing why people should live elsewhere. At least not from a pure energy use standpoint.
Serious talks? At least insulation is the standard in new construction, at least in Germany. Works for winter and summer. Add ventilation with energy recuperation, solar panels and a heat pump, many homes produce more energy than they consume in a yearly scale.
Hold up there pardner, homes producing more energy than they consume? That sounds vaguely communistic-like, and we don’t take kindly to that sort of thinkin’ round here. Just gonna hunker down and let the invisible hands of Jesus and the market take care of us 'cause this here’s the greatest nation on the whole earth. /S
I meant to imply that thermal insulation is a prerequisite to any cooling tech, new or old. Looking at my comment again, I just worded it badly.
That’s pretty cool. Getting modern insulation on older apartment blocks here in Romania is an uphill struggle. You need every occupant of the block to sign off on it, and that always results in massive headaches from someone who doesn’t want to pay the 30 Euros per person.
Seems like a good time to change the law to require something less than unanimity.
I would love to see it!
Also you don’t suddenly disrobe during a power outage, well not unintentionally at least.
Speak for yourself, pal.
Would you say the same about places where it gets well below freezing in the winter?
Edit: Many older houses don’t have AC in Vegas. They use evaporative cooling mostly.
It’s easier and more efficient to wrap yourself up with blankets and covers and use minimal heating (with decent home insulation) to warm yourself up than it is to cool down when you are too hot.
At an individual level sure, it’s easy to throw on a blanket when it’s cold. But at a household level, much more energy is used to heat homes.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-10/why-we-always-fight-over-air-conditioning
Interesting article!
Its pretty US centric though so I think one would have to contrast that against the UK and Europe which generally has homes that are brick and concrete rather than lumber, we also have (I believe) tighter insulation regulations and - just generally - vastly smaller homes.
I think if US houses were built to European regs and sizes then the numbers would look much different.
Also, most existing homes were built when energy was very nearly free, so that there was no incentive to be efficient.
yeah if you don’t have heating (wood, pellets, gas, fossil, electric, whatever) you can’t live in that climate. its, like, a thing.
but its way easier to heat a thing and keep it warm than cool a thing.
huh. I was just looking at air conditioners being really inefficient and it being really hard to keep a thing cool passively because all the stuff we do/have makes heat nowadays.
It’s easy to passively cool things, as long as you’re okay getting them wet :)
me? yes. my living space? less.
On the other hand, ACs are heat pumps, which are generally efficient for transferring heat energy (both to warm and cool)
heat pumps are extremely cool.
The laws of thermodynamics disagree
Edit: the downvoters may want to actually learn about this https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/why-does-it-take-more-energy-to-heat-a-home-than-to-cool-one.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-10/why-we-always-fight-over-air-conditioning
Pepperidge Farm remembers
So they waste more water but less energy.
Colder climates have their challenges, but tend to have more energy-efficient solutions than hot ones. Then there ae the wonderful places with brutally cold winters and boiling summers, so you get the worst of both worlds.