• AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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    7 months ago

    Talking about the “initial fault” in this conflict is moot. We’re at a point, where both sides can reasonably point to some events in the past and blame the other side for the conflict.

    Fact is, Iran is a theocratic dictatorship and its allies are religious fanatic militias, while Israel is a liberal democracy, supported by pretty much all of The West™. Of course the expectations towards Israel regarding human rights and international law are slightly higher. And let’s be honest, what Israel is doing right now is certainly not helping calming the situation, or even making long term peace.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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      7 months ago

      while Israel is a liberal democracy, supported by pretty much all of The West™.

      Man Israel has more than 5 million people under an occupation that denies them any and all human rights. They’re not a liberal democracy in any stretch of the word.

      • kurwa@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Israel is an authoritarian state, they throw people in jail for disagreeing with the government, or just being Palestinian / Muslim.

        • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          authoritarian, apartheid, theocratic, genocidal and willing to start world war three over looking bad

          Iran is authoritarian and theocratic, and the people there don’t love that.

          I feel like one of these things is worse than the other. indefensibly, past the fucking moral event horizon, ‘kill them all and then shoot the bodies to make sure they’re dead’ levels of worse.

          world war three isn’t, like, acceptable. theres no defense for that sjit, especially with some of the military hardware they now have.

    • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
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      7 months ago

      lol “liberal democracy”. they’re as homophobic and more transphobic. they’re howling fascists that make the Nazis look like noobs (learning from history I guess. in a the worst ways). they don’t have virtue.

      but iranisnt trying to start world war three, and they aren’t trying to do a genocide, so theyre the sensible allies here.

      unless you want a global thermonuclear war. then by all means; back the Zionist terror forces.

    • WamGams
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      7 months ago

      I don’t know if I fully buy that argument.

      If somebody supports Israel, they are supporting a genocide based on perceived land needs of the Israeli people.

      If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.

      I don’t think we can get anywhere unless all of us as leftists acknowledge that the Jews of Israel will be in the same position the people of Palestine are in right now if we don’t thread the needle of support and guess what? We are not fucking threading that needle.

      • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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        7 months ago

        If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.

        What? No significant player in Palestine is trying to do that.

        • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          equivocating ‘the Jewish peolle’ with kapo genocide orcs doing 'protocols of the elders of zionc larp is antisemitic as fuck. what do you expect from a bunch of literal Hitler apologists though?

        • WamGams
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          7 months ago

          If we pretend the “elected” government of Palestine is in significant than sure.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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            7 months ago

            Uh… Hamas has tried to make peace with Israel before. Multiple times. Including two attempts to hand over Gaza to the PA and start peace negotiations. Israel has refused all of them.

            • StormFather@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza after the takeover in 2006. when did they ever attempt to give gaza back?

              • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                7 months ago

                So first, “Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza” ignores that it was the PA trying to overturn the result of democratic elections. Not saying Hamas didn’t do fucked up things either, but let’s not forget how it happened.

                That said, there were many efforts for reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah. You’ll notice a theme of Israeli opposition to all of these.

                • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  nothing like throwing people off of roofs to show how democratic you are

                  israel being against reconcilliation does not effect hamas, they did it because they wanted to.

                  so…when did they try to give it back multiple times?

                  • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                    7 months ago

                    nothing like throwing people off of roofs to show how democratic you are

                    Did you forget the part when Fatah then did the exact same thing?

                    israel being against reconcilliation does not effect hamas,

                    It literally does, though. Israel and the US have materially and successfully obstructed reconciliation multiple times before, and hell the whole schism started in the first place because of international pressure on Fatah.

                    they did it because they wanted to.

                    Uh… Again, it was Fatah who “did it”. What happened in 2007 was a Hamas response to a planned US-backed coup.

                    when did they try to give it back multiple times?

                    So… That’s kind of the point of reconciliation here.

              • sazey@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                Israel was literally funding Hamas in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians and stop chances of a unified leadership arising. Netanyahu admitted to as much. It is an Israeli media source, inb4 muh bias.

                • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  the real reason he bribed them was to buy quite to appear as someone who is “strong against terorrism”

                  about the funding, so i guess hamas had no choice but to murder people in order to recieve more money. after all its not like they recieve millions in aid from all over world, the only funding is bibi so he gets to tell them how to act and who to kill

                  • sazey@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    Funding from “all over the world” doesn’t quite slap the same as funding from your nemesis. While Hamas may not receive play by play instructions from Israel, it cannot be denied that they were allowed to thrive to act as counterweight to more moderate elements and viewed as “an asset” (Smotrich’s words in 2016) to keep Palestinian unity movement divided fighting amongst themselves. This worked fairly well too until recent events, whereby Netanyahu and his like were able to benefit politically by waving the boogeyman of their own making instead of making a genuine effort at peace.

            • WamGams
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              7 months ago

              Israel isn’t the one rejecting the cease fire right now.

              • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                7 months ago

                Uh… They are? Hamas has stated what they consider an acceptable ceasefire by listing their bare minimum “if we don’t get this there’s no point” demands and Israel keeps rejecting them. It’s Israel refusing to compromise here.

                Also you ignored my reply.

                • WamGams
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                  7 months ago

                  Uhm… No.

                  Hamas rejected the last ceasefire because they won’t hand over 40 hostages.

                  At least keep current of the news if you are pretending you care.

      • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        uh, not the Jewish people. I support Palestine, and I’m not down for killing the guy who runs the donuy shop, or the guy at the deli, or even two of my ex girlfriends.

        equivocating ‘the Jewish people’ with ‘israel’ is blatantly antisemitic and potentially genocidal. stop.

        • WamGams
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          7 months ago

          I don’t believe you truly didn’t understand what I said. I think you just wanted to tell the person concerned about antisemitism that he is the true antisemite.

          You will be blocked if you try that on me again. So please either try good faith dialog in your next response or don’t bother responding.

          • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            they’re not concerned about antisemitism if they’re equating Jewish identity with a genocidal fascist apocalypse cult that draws protocols of the elders of Zion fan art on everyone’s maps.

            well, not in the direction one would hope they’re concerned.

            • WamGams
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              7 months ago

              You were told you would be blocked if you didn’t stop playing that game.