That was the default at one point in human history. If you didn’t hunt or forage, you probably didn’t get to eat. Eventually humans discovered agriculture and figured out a small group of people could produce enough food for a large group of people. You’d assume that would then mean not everyone would need to labour for their food, but you’d be wrong!
Most forager cultures are based around sharing, and everybody’s property rights usually include the right to use all of the group’s territory, and a share of all food that was gotten in large amounts like large prey etc. [1] The amount of labor needed for feeding people increased a lot with agriculture[1][2]; in most forager cultures you’d have people with a variety of different roles, anything from child and elder care, to tool making, to cooking etc. – and even some people who basically don’t do jack shit. Their concept of property and ownership was often different, so this’ll sound surprising in today’s culture where you need to earn a right to live.
Agriculture was initially only really good for population growth and rulers (easy to tax production), but it absolutely didn’t make anybody’s life easier or better for a long time when compared to foragers. In addition to taking a lot more work than foraging, it also led to diets getting much worse, a higher incidence of viral outbreaks due to more people living closer together for longer times, and a bunch of other problems, ultimately leading to early sedentary cultures having shorter life spans compared to foragers [1][3]
My sourcing isn’t extensive because this isn’t a scientific article 😁 just for the main points so people can verify I’m not pulling this out of my ass.
True, but agriculture and herding made stable civilizations possible. Hunting and gathering meant you had to go where the food was, and if you overhunted or overgathered, or your staple foods got wiped out by disease/famine/natural disaster/etc then your society was probably just done.
Writing only comes into existence after the first cities are established. Arguably, the ability to share knowledge in this way has improved quality of life for everyone (not just rulers).
Sure, like I said, agriculture is great if you want to grow your population a lot, and I’m not saying life isn’t better now because of agriculture – just that it took a long while for that to become true and early sedentary cultures were usually worse off than the foragers.
Famines obviously didn’t stop being a thing after agriculture, and I’m fairly sure they increased as you’d have groups of people who are much more reliant on just one crop instead of a variety of sources.
Fair points, but also a bit moot. We can’t stop agriculture and go back to tribal hunting, we are entirely too many people on earth and we have already hunted many species to extinction. I’m also fairly sure we wouldn’t have remotely enough “wild” growth of food and game to sustain our global population. All that would do now is cause famine and wars. And probably the extinction of many more animal species.
Where did I say we need to stop agriculture? I said that early sedentary cultures were worse off compared to foragers.
My point was that the claim that humans have always needed to earn a right to live isn’t true, and now everybody’s somehow convinced that I think we need to go back to being foragers
Fair enough, perhaps i misinterpreted your intent. Though I am confused why that needs a lot of evidence, isnt that obvious to anyone who thinks about the subject for a minute? I mean I fully agree with your intent, i am just surprised you consider that such a controversial position that you are coming in full force with reference links, on Lemmy, where the audience will overwhelmingly agree with you already, by virtue of being very left leaning themselves. Good on you though ✊
Considering the person I was replying to was claiming the exact opposite, I really don’t understand where your confusion comes from.
I write sources down for all sorts of stuff in my personal notes, and this myth has come up often enough that I’ve got more than a few links. I’d rather provide sources than just go “trust me bro”, let alone assume everybody agrees with me especially when it’s bleedin’ obvious everybody doesn’t
I mean, it still is. As another commenter pointed out, even in foraging societies people can share, so individuals might survive without labour, by the help of others - but only because others are labouring on their behalf.
If everyone stops working, everyone dies.
Labour in a society is about doing your share, even if others have the generosity to give you their food when you lack. And, in turn, you give to them/others when they lack. Or you make an ‘economy’ so you can kind of mix sharing with selfishness and try to make it fair.
Either way, labour has to be done for you to keep living. By you, or by others.
What we have now is a lot of wealth from a lot of labour, and a hugely complicated economy allowing even the fungible trade of such things as ideas, entertainment, trickery, authority and abstract property inheritance. But still, down at the bottom of it, people have to labour so that people can live.
You are precious without working to earn it; what you earn is your share of the ability to live on this difficult earth.
The Problem with things, like the 15 hour per week claim, is that work isn’t comparable in different forms of society.
The article for example never specified, what it defines as work. Is only the time spent hunting or foraging ‘work’ ?
Is making & maintaining tools work? Is learning a new skill from an elder work? Is experimenting with a new technique work? Is keeping the campfire alive work? Is keeping watch for dangerous animals work? All of which are work in today’s society. Hell, over half of my work week is spent ‘socialising’. Do I only work for 20 hours a week now?
Every article or study, that I know of, that claims that people in the past worked significantly less, fails to specify what it defines as work.
How many hours a week working on fundamental science, art, entertainment, medicine, engineering, etc. If you drink from the fountain of modern society, you get the benefits and you share the burden of the costs.
Life is unfair. There are no free rides, nor should there be.
Life is unfair. There are no free rides, nor should there be.
And this attitude is exactly why life is unfair. Doesn’t have to be like this, there’s other ways of organizing societies than “fuck you, I got mine” and not just hypothetically; welfare systems are a thing in many countries you know. Or at least were until relatively recently, thanks to people who think like you.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news my dude. I didnt make it this way. I assure you what I think doesn’t amount to squat.
Sitting around and wishing for the good old days is just an insane notion of looking at the past with zero appreciation for the magic of the modern world.
I wish the world was fair, truly. It sucks, but realism feels like a better place to hang my hat.
I had to go to school at 17. My entire childhood I was told that my life would be over if I didn’t and I would be set if I did. Couldn’t get a job after I finished undergrad, but I still needed to put food on my table. I could get federal loans if I went back to school, so I did.
Another shit part is for some people it does work, and they never have an inkling that there is another side. So they sit there all “bootstraps” this and “self made” that. Their parents fed them the lie because they didn’t know any better or worse, did. But it all worked out and now they are conservative.
Look, you are intelligent and able to communicate clearly. That is more than a great many adults I run into. You can find your way in this world, but it is going to be your way and not your parent’s.
That was the default at one point in human history. If you didn’t hunt or forage, you probably didn’t get to eat. Eventually humans discovered agriculture and figured out a small group of people could produce enough food for a large group of people. You’d assume that would then mean not everyone would need to labour for their food, but you’d be wrong!
That is not the default.
Most forager cultures are based around sharing, and everybody’s property rights usually include the right to use all of the group’s territory, and a share of all food that was gotten in large amounts like large prey etc. [1] The amount of labor needed for feeding people increased a lot with agriculture[1][2]; in most forager cultures you’d have people with a variety of different roles, anything from child and elder care, to tool making, to cooking etc. – and even some people who basically don’t do jack shit. Their concept of property and ownership was often different, so this’ll sound surprising in today’s culture where you need to earn a right to live.
Agriculture was initially only really good for population growth and rulers (easy to tax production), but it absolutely didn’t make anybody’s life easier or better for a long time when compared to foragers. In addition to taking a lot more work than foraging, it also led to diets getting much worse, a higher incidence of viral outbreaks due to more people living closer together for longer times, and a bunch of other problems, ultimately leading to early sedentary cultures having shorter life spans compared to foragers [1][3]
My sourcing isn’t extensive because this isn’t a scientific article 😁 just for the main points so people can verify I’m not pulling this out of my ass.
True, but agriculture and herding made stable civilizations possible. Hunting and gathering meant you had to go where the food was, and if you overhunted or overgathered, or your staple foods got wiped out by disease/famine/natural disaster/etc then your society was probably just done.
Writing only comes into existence after the first cities are established. Arguably, the ability to share knowledge in this way has improved quality of life for everyone (not just rulers).
Sure, like I said, agriculture is great if you want to grow your population a lot, and I’m not saying life isn’t better now because of agriculture – just that it took a long while for that to become true and early sedentary cultures were usually worse off than the foragers.
Famines obviously didn’t stop being a thing after agriculture, and I’m fairly sure they increased as you’d have groups of people who are much more reliant on just one crop instead of a variety of sources.
You should read David Graeber for a conclusive counter argument to this.
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Fair points, but also a bit moot. We can’t stop agriculture and go back to tribal hunting, we are entirely too many people on earth and we have already hunted many species to extinction. I’m also fairly sure we wouldn’t have remotely enough “wild” growth of food and game to sustain our global population. All that would do now is cause famine and wars. And probably the extinction of many more animal species.
Where did I say we need to stop agriculture? I said that early sedentary cultures were worse off compared to foragers.
My point was that the claim that humans have always needed to earn a right to live isn’t true, and now everybody’s somehow convinced that I think we need to go back to being foragers
Fair enough, perhaps i misinterpreted your intent. Though I am confused why that needs a lot of evidence, isnt that obvious to anyone who thinks about the subject for a minute? I mean I fully agree with your intent, i am just surprised you consider that such a controversial position that you are coming in full force with reference links, on Lemmy, where the audience will overwhelmingly agree with you already, by virtue of being very left leaning themselves. Good on you though ✊
Considering the person I was replying to was claiming the exact opposite, I really don’t understand where your confusion comes from.
I write sources down for all sorts of stuff in my personal notes, and this myth has come up often enough that I’ve got more than a few links. I’d rather provide sources than just go “trust me bro”, let alone assume everybody agrees with me especially when it’s bleedin’ obvious everybody doesn’t
As I said, I misinterpreted your intent. No need to be so defensive, I have only skimmed the thread and your comment caught my eye.
deleted by creator
I mean, it still is. As another commenter pointed out, even in foraging societies people can share, so individuals might survive without labour, by the help of others - but only because others are labouring on their behalf.
If everyone stops working, everyone dies.
Labour in a society is about doing your share, even if others have the generosity to give you their food when you lack. And, in turn, you give to them/others when they lack. Or you make an ‘economy’ so you can kind of mix sharing with selfishness and try to make it fair.
Either way, labour has to be done for you to keep living. By you, or by others.
What we have now is a lot of wealth from a lot of labour, and a hugely complicated economy allowing even the fungible trade of such things as ideas, entertainment, trickery, authority and abstract property inheritance. But still, down at the bottom of it, people have to labour so that people can live.
You are precious without working to earn it; what you earn is your share of the ability to live on this difficult earth.
How do babys survive? They can not hunt nor forage. Even more so we have remains of a person with Down sydrom who died in his mid 20s having been unable to walk on two legs for at least a decade before he died. So clearly unable to surive on his own. Also hunter gathers ususally work 15 hours a week. At least modern ones do that. Agriculture is able to provide food for more people, but tends to do so with a lot more work until relativly recently
The Problem with things, like the 15 hour per week claim, is that work isn’t comparable in different forms of society.
The article for example never specified, what it defines as work. Is only the time spent hunting or foraging ‘work’ ?
Is making & maintaining tools work? Is learning a new skill from an elder work? Is experimenting with a new technique work? Is keeping the campfire alive work? Is keeping watch for dangerous animals work? All of which are work in today’s society. Hell, over half of my work week is spent ‘socialising’. Do I only work for 20 hours a week now?
Every article or study, that I know of, that claims that people in the past worked significantly less, fails to specify what it defines as work.
How many hours a week working on fundamental science, art, entertainment, medicine, engineering, etc. If you drink from the fountain of modern society, you get the benefits and you share the burden of the costs.
Life is unfair. There are no free rides, nor should there be.
And this attitude is exactly why life is unfair. Doesn’t have to be like this, there’s other ways of organizing societies than “fuck you, I got mine” and not just hypothetically; welfare systems are a thing in many countries you know. Or at least were until relatively recently, thanks to people who think like you.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news my dude. I didnt make it this way. I assure you what I think doesn’t amount to squat.
Sitting around and wishing for the good old days is just an insane notion of looking at the past with zero appreciation for the magic of the modern world.
I wish the world was fair, truly. It sucks, but realism feels like a better place to hang my hat.
Yes, better just lie down and take it rather than aspire for something better
That does seem to be what ‘antiwork’ is about.
You saw through my clever charade!?
Look, I hate the man as much as anyone. It is just that I got a job and a mortgage and a family and I woke up one morning old and the man.
Quoth the poet Ben Folds, “everybody know it sucks to grow up”
I got a master’s of science with a 4.0 GPA and no one will give me a job after months. I did my part. Fuck society.
Yeah, the big lie. Do what we tell you and it will all work out. Nope. Work + Luck. Society isn’t out to get you, it is just ignorant of you.
I had to go to school at 17. My entire childhood I was told that my life would be over if I didn’t and I would be set if I did. Couldn’t get a job after I finished undergrad, but I still needed to put food on my table. I could get federal loans if I went back to school, so I did.
Another shit part is for some people it does work, and they never have an inkling that there is another side. So they sit there all “bootstraps” this and “self made” that. Their parents fed them the lie because they didn’t know any better or worse, did. But it all worked out and now they are conservative.
Look, you are intelligent and able to communicate clearly. That is more than a great many adults I run into. You can find your way in this world, but it is going to be your way and not your parent’s.
Yeah, but can’t really go back to foraging, can I? I have to somehow become a cog in the big societal machine, if I can, to survive.