Kelly Wong's appointment is the result of a 2020 voter-approved measure that removed the citizenship requirement to serve on San Francisco boards, commissions and advisory bodies.
So for those of you reading along at home this is where wintermute tries to hijack the conversation off the rails into some far off-topic tangent by demanding I teach him about the origins of modern conservatism by going all the way back to Edmund Burke, but no matter what I put forth he’s going to probably not read it and say it’s not valid or “just as I thought, made up garbage” and act like he has somehow invalidated my whole explanation of why people don’t want noncitizens on an elections commission.
So then yeah sure maybe I’m wrong about the whole thing. But why then, why is it a problem that a noncitizen is on an election commission? Why would someone be upset with that, or noncitizens voting in local elections? Either because they are against democracy and don’t believe in voting or for some other mysterious reason. No reason is given. Maybe I’m right and it’s because social stratification is seen as the natural order of things based on individual choices, and to give political power to outsiders is seen as unnatural and disruptive social engineering leading to anarchy and chaos. That’s pretty much what Joseph de Maistre said but hey I’m not here to teach history or connect dots for people who just want to argue.
So, I know where you’re coming from because I’ve read stuff by Edmund Burke and other conservatives. But, unless the conservative you’re talking with is the intellectual type, they probably haven’t. They’ve probably just internalized some version of social conservatism but would also be appalled that you’d accuse them of supporting social stratification even as they support it.
I learned some time ago that this particular argumentative strategy is incredibly pointless. They don’t care that you know the historical and philosophical foundation of their beliefs. For them, that foundation isn’t there for them. They probably don’t know it! Their life experiences inform them more than anything else.
They don’t care that you know the historical and philosophical foundation of their beliefs. For them, that foundation isn’t there for them. They probably don’t know it!
Hold on, this came back into my mind and I’m not sure how to interpret it. It seems like, someone who feels that they hold an opinion but can’t really say why they do, can’t point to some principle upon which the opinion rests, nor articulate any deeply held beliefs that would direct their thinking to come to such and such a conclusion- that person (and I am not directing this at any particular individual), that hypothetical person seems like a dumbass. Am I totally misunderstanding what is being said here?
Yeah thanks man. I don’t really expect to convince anybody here who is already been programed into a republican aparatchik. I am mostly posting for anyone reading this stuff who may be swayed by dumb arguments but can be pulled back from the brink by reason.
I’m also using these posts as a way of clarifying and organizing my own thoughts. What do I think about things? Why do I think this or that? It can be useful to have somethi g to react to, and examine my own reactions.
She has a number of chronic illnesses. All in all its a pretty normal day as unfortunate as that is. She will be ok, but it’s still spooky.
She is on medicaid. So when the conservatives around here say stupid shit like “i don’T wANt To pAy FOr SOmEbody ELse’s CARE. they sHoULD Get a JOb AnD pull ThEMSeLves UP By tHeIr BOoTSTrApS” it hits closer to home. They effectively want my girlfriend dead.
Screaming my head off around here about it is slightly better than screaming into the void over their attempts to kill social services.
Its funny to put conservative and evolving together in the same sentence. First, because a lot of religious conservatives don’t believe in evolution. Secondly, “evolution” implies change and innovation, and conservatism, in the traditionalist sense, has the attitude that change for the sake of change is generally not a good idea. Russell Kirk, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Kirk probably one of the most influential thinkers in American conservativism, said that two of the most important concepts are:
"A faith in custom, convention, and prescription, and
A recognition that innovation must be tied to existing traditions and customs, which entails a respect for the political value of prudence."
Right wing ideas are very much instructed in schools and in churches. I went to one of those schools and one of those churches. Right wing ideas are also instructed via tv channels, websites and think-tanks, paid for by those who want to promote those ideas, although I realize that’s not what you mean by instructed in the school sense. Prager U isn’t a school but it does right wing instruction.
It may seem like these ideas arise naturally and organically in the minds of free thinking people, but political ideologies -left or right- don’t spontaneously appear out of nothing.
If you have opinions but can’t point to where they come from other than “its just right” then your thinking has been influenced without you knowing it. And that’s not a good thing for anyone.
First, because a lot of religious conservatives don’t believe in evolution
Which is a pet peeve of mine. Coming from a science background, it annoys me. I grew up with religion but I’m not religious. I’m not anti-religious either.
Some people feel the two collide but I don’t. Evolution still has lots of questions but science is a journey, not a destination. It’s the best theory we have and fairly well documented in the fossil record. It didn’t mean there is or isn’t a good. It just shows how we adapt over time.
Well I don’t know how you figure. Some would say that to accept evolution is to deny the Bible, which amounts to denial of God. It also seems like to be “not religious” is by definition anti-religion, because if you were not against some aspect of traditional American society then you’d be a part of it. If you grew up with it, then at some point there was a rejection.
I never rejected it as I never believed it. I don’t have any semblance of faith. I go to mass on occasion because it’s tradition, not because I believe. I like the pageantry of it all.
As such I let people practive their religion and don’t interfere with it. I am a strong advocate of the 1st amendment.
Pretty much. If you really look at true modern American conservative values. There is a belief anyone can climb as hard as they are willing to work. If anything we believe in a more oval shape where the majority of Americans are in the middle.
Democrats are more about a pyramid shape where you have the rich ruling class, a small middle class and a large group of poor people who depend on the government. It’s why the war on poverty, increased poverty. It’s a feature.
Democrats are more about a pyramid shape where you have the rich ruling class, a small middle class and a large group of poor people who depend on the government.
Tell me you don’t understand anything about the left without telling me.
There are certainly oligarch owned democrats who are in favor of a rich ruling class (with that said, republicans are far worse about this).
And then there are the progressives, the actual leftists that begrudgingly vote democrat, and want to see an end to the ruling class and dependence on the state.
So for those of you reading along at home this is where wintermute tries to hijack the conversation off the rails into some far off-topic tangent by demanding I teach him about the origins of modern conservatism by going all the way back to Edmund Burke, but no matter what I put forth he’s going to probably not read it and say it’s not valid or “just as I thought, made up garbage” and act like he has somehow invalidated my whole explanation of why people don’t want noncitizens on an elections commission.
So then yeah sure maybe I’m wrong about the whole thing. But why then, why is it a problem that a noncitizen is on an election commission? Why would someone be upset with that, or noncitizens voting in local elections? Either because they are against democracy and don’t believe in voting or for some other mysterious reason. No reason is given. Maybe I’m right and it’s because social stratification is seen as the natural order of things based on individual choices, and to give political power to outsiders is seen as unnatural and disruptive social engineering leading to anarchy and chaos. That’s pretty much what Joseph de Maistre said but hey I’m not here to teach history or connect dots for people who just want to argue.
So, I know where you’re coming from because I’ve read stuff by Edmund Burke and other conservatives. But, unless the conservative you’re talking with is the intellectual type, they probably haven’t. They’ve probably just internalized some version of social conservatism but would also be appalled that you’d accuse them of supporting social stratification even as they support it.
I learned some time ago that this particular argumentative strategy is incredibly pointless. They don’t care that you know the historical and philosophical foundation of their beliefs. For them, that foundation isn’t there for them. They probably don’t know it! Their life experiences inform them more than anything else.
Hold on, this came back into my mind and I’m not sure how to interpret it. It seems like, someone who feels that they hold an opinion but can’t really say why they do, can’t point to some principle upon which the opinion rests, nor articulate any deeply held beliefs that would direct their thinking to come to such and such a conclusion- that person (and I am not directing this at any particular individual), that hypothetical person seems like a dumbass. Am I totally misunderstanding what is being said here?
You are not.
Yeah thanks man. I don’t really expect to convince anybody here who is already been programed into a republican aparatchik. I am mostly posting for anyone reading this stuff who may be swayed by dumb arguments but can be pulled back from the brink by reason.
I’m also using these posts as a way of clarifying and organizing my own thoughts. What do I think about things? Why do I think this or that? It can be useful to have somethi g to react to, and examine my own reactions.
Seconded
It was the exact same for me back when I argued about religion. But, a decent portion of it is also just for entertainment.
Right now my girlfriend is in the ER with me, and I don’t have much else to do. Arguing on here passes the time rather quickly.
In the ER? Hope everbody’s ok.
She has a number of chronic illnesses. All in all its a pretty normal day as unfortunate as that is. She will be ok, but it’s still spooky.
She is on medicaid. So when the conservatives around here say stupid shit like “i don’T wANt To pAy FOr SOmEbody ELse’s CARE. they sHoULD Get a JOb AnD pull ThEMSeLves UP By tHeIr BOoTSTrApS” it hits closer to home. They effectively want my girlfriend dead.
Screaming my head off around here about it is slightly better than screaming into the void over their attempts to kill social services.
I wish you two luck, I hope everything will be okay!
Ive been thinking about this comment.
Its true that I dont know the history or foundation of being pro-guns/pro-2a/etc but I do know the history of disarmed populations.
Theres also the stat that college educated people are more likely to be left wing.
I wonder if conservative idea are more naturally evolving than progressive ideas.
In other words, left wing ideas are instructed but right wing ideas are not.
Its funny to put conservative and evolving together in the same sentence. First, because a lot of religious conservatives don’t believe in evolution. Secondly, “evolution” implies change and innovation, and conservatism, in the traditionalist sense, has the attitude that change for the sake of change is generally not a good idea. Russell Kirk, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Kirk probably one of the most influential thinkers in American conservativism, said that two of the most important concepts are:
Right wing ideas are very much instructed in schools and in churches. I went to one of those schools and one of those churches. Right wing ideas are also instructed via tv channels, websites and think-tanks, paid for by those who want to promote those ideas, although I realize that’s not what you mean by instructed in the school sense. Prager U isn’t a school but it does right wing instruction.
It may seem like these ideas arise naturally and organically in the minds of free thinking people, but political ideologies -left or right- don’t spontaneously appear out of nothing. If you have opinions but can’t point to where they come from other than “its just right” then your thinking has been influenced without you knowing it. And that’s not a good thing for anyone.
Which is a pet peeve of mine. Coming from a science background, it annoys me. I grew up with religion but I’m not religious. I’m not anti-religious either. Some people feel the two collide but I don’t. Evolution still has lots of questions but science is a journey, not a destination. It’s the best theory we have and fairly well documented in the fossil record. It didn’t mean there is or isn’t a good. It just shows how we adapt over time.
Well I don’t know how you figure. Some would say that to accept evolution is to deny the Bible, which amounts to denial of God. It also seems like to be “not religious” is by definition anti-religion, because if you were not against some aspect of traditional American society then you’d be a part of it. If you grew up with it, then at some point there was a rejection.
I never rejected it as I never believed it. I don’t have any semblance of faith. I go to mass on occasion because it’s tradition, not because I believe. I like the pageantry of it all.
As such I let people practive their religion and don’t interfere with it. I am a strong advocate of the 1st amendment.
I didn’t say teach me anything. I asked you for a citation which should be easy to do if it’s as common as you claim.
Thanks for admitting you’re full of shit.
So you made it up. Got it.
Pretty much. If you really look at true modern American conservative values. There is a belief anyone can climb as hard as they are willing to work. If anything we believe in a more oval shape where the majority of Americans are in the middle.
Democrats are more about a pyramid shape where you have the rich ruling class, a small middle class and a large group of poor people who depend on the government. It’s why the war on poverty, increased poverty. It’s a feature.
An objectively false belief. The American dream has been dead for decades.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/stuck-on-the-ladder-wealth-mobility-is-low-and-decreases-with-age/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/brookings-institute/
Tell me you don’t understand anything about the left without telling me.
There are certainly oligarch owned democrats who are in favor of a rich ruling class (with that said, republicans are far worse about this).
And then there are the progressives, the actual leftists that begrudgingly vote democrat, and want to see an end to the ruling class and dependence on the state.