The problem is Hawaii is not shall-issue as the vast majority of states are. One can be denied such merely because the official feels like it, despite fully qualifying and jumping every hoop.
There’s Shall Issue and there’s “Shall Issue”. Where I live (Bay area) it’s 18 months wait and about $2,000 in fees including a state appointed psychiatrist who asks questions all of which have obvious correct answers. I think you need a coworker (specifically a coworker) to write a reference letter too. Also there’s a separate law saying you cannot carry in most places, basically rendering the permit useless.
I’m not sure what Hawaii was doing but basically all the blue states have some flavor of this, where in the past your kids just had to go to the same school at the sheriff’s or you had to be an executive at a company or a celebrity and you got to carry anywhere you liked. At least now the same rules apply to everyone?
So you’re not sure what Hawaii’s rules on carry permits are, but you’re sure they’re bad, and that excuses not registering a weapon purchased out of state.
For the record, a cursory search says it’s pretty straightforward to get a permit. Like, take a safety course, fill out a form and provide copies of a photo of yourself and get fingerprinted.
And yeah, they do have restrictions on where you can carry, which sounds like a protection of the rights of the rest of the people to me. If people don’t want to be around guns, they should be able to say you can’t bring one into their home or store without explicit permission, at the least.
What I never get is how people who don’t want to be around guns are generally perfectly fine being around people on a payroll to carry guns (not just cops, i mean bodyguards, armored trucks, etc). It takes shockingly little to get that qualification. It’s everything you listed where I live, without any technicalities or weird hoops, much easier than a carry permit, you don’t even need to have a formal personal protection or cash transport business. I know a bunch of people who got guard cards for the hell of it. The fact is the people who jump through all the hoops to get a permit are never the issue.
For one, I’m not sure what that has to do with this conversation. Generally speaking, the sort of person who carries a gun for work isn’t the same sort of person who thinks they need a gun to buy milk.
Second, bold of you to assume that people who don’t want to be around guns are entirely okay with them in the situations you mentioned. Most of them would rather not be around armed police, they would just prefer a police officer to a rando, because again, the cop didn’t get up and think “I better make sure I’m ready to kill people in case it comes up at the grocery store”.
Saw another post and thought of your response here… I think the difference is those of us who know what it takes absolutely feel more comfortable around people who have something to lose, because they do not conflate their position with expertise granting blanket immunity from consequences for their mistakes.
You seem to keep coming back to some belief that I hold cops in some esteem. I don’t.
For all the warts of the profession, they’re still a known quantity. You know why the cop has the gun. You know they completed their minimum of one semester of training and bare minimum psychological evaluation. You know they have a high school diploma.
Anyone else, you know that they could … Afford a gun. If it’s concealed, you know that they took an eight hour course in safety. You know rather little about their stability or anything else. You don’t know why they brought the gun.
In both cases, you also know that they likely exceed those minimums by a fair margin.
As mentioned, cpl holders tend to be enthusiastic and proficient, law abiding citizens. Where I live cops tends to have four year degrees on top of a full year of dedicated police training and supplementary medical training and continuing education requirements.
Again, don’t particularly want to have either around me, but one has less question marks.
Also, linking to idiots with guns isn’t a great way to testify to the responsibility of gun owners.
I don’t feel like I need a fire extinguisher in my kitchen to make some pancakes. Is it a good idea? Sure. The chances are really small that I’ll need it, but I’ll be very happy to have it in case the worst case scenario comes up.
I don’t carry a gun to the grocery store because I’m afraid I’ll need it, I carry because I acknowledge that violent crime happens randomly to normal people like me and I’d rather be prepared for it than not. Modern guns retained in concealed holsters are actually very safe. They don’t just “go off” on their own, and the only reason someone would draw theirs is if their life or a loved one’s was in immediate danger.
I don’t get up in the morning thinking “I better make sure I’m ready to kill people in case it comes up at the grocery store.” That’s way too reductive and gung ho.
Do you take your fire extinguisher with you to the store also?
When you drive there, do you make sure to buckle your five point harness and put on your full visor helmet?
Do you carry you basic EMS kit with you at all times?
What about a couple doses of narcan? EpiPen?
My point is, the gun is a big piece of equipment for a very niche contingency. There are significantly more likely threats that you can take care of with less burden to your daily life than even the modest inconvenience of carrying a weapon.
Don’t pretend that you need to carry a gun to the grocery store.
You want to carry a gun, for whatever reason.
No one thinks the gun is just gonna magic itself out of the holster and shoot someone.
The point is the gun doesn’t make anyone else feel more safe. No one thinks to themselves “oh good, a stranger with a gun has arrived. That’s just what this Baskin Robbins needed”.
Do you take your fire extinguisher with you to the store also?
When you drive there, do you make sure to buckle your five point harness and put on your full visor helmet?
Do you carry you basic EMS kit with you at all times?
What about a couple doses of narcan? EpiPen?
I was highlighting the convenience/safety tradeoff in taking basic precautions against low probability but high risk events. You were incorrectly stating that people feel like they need to carry a gun just to grocery shop, and I explained how that was false. Not sure how that went over your head, but it clearly did.
My point is, the gun is a big piece of equipment for a very niche contingency. There are significantly more likely threats that you can take care of with less burden to your daily life than even the modest inconvenience of carrying a weapon.
Ok, name a few? How else would someone mitigate risk of human threats against their life? I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at, but you don’t have to forgo carrying a weapon for self defense in order to eat healthy and exercise to mitigate risk of heart failure. Carrying a gun everyday also isn’t a burden, and I enjoy range time and training. People should be allowed means to self defense if they want it. If they abuse it, they get their rights taken away. It’s really quite simple.
Don’t pretend that you need to carry a gun to the grocery store.
You want to carry a gun, for whatever reason.
If the goal is having means for self defense against people, concealed carry is the only effective way to achieve it. Pepper spray, taser, knife, or anything else is objectively ineffective. I don’t need a gun to grocery shop, but I do need a gun if I want adequate self defense.
No one thinks the gun is just gonna magic itself out of the holster and shoot someone.
The point is the gun doesn’t make anyone else feel more safe. No one thinks to themselves “oh good, a stranger with a gun has arrived. That’s just what this Baskin Robbins needed”.
The goal isn’t to make other people feel safe, the goal is to help myself and my loved ones. Other people will never know that I have a gun on me, so whether I actually have one or don’t doesn’t change anything from their point of view.
The problem is Hawaii is not shall-issue as the vast majority of states are. One can be denied such merely because the official feels like it, despite fully qualifying and jumping every hoop.
Is the issue that he was denied needlessly, or that he didn’t even try to register or get a carry license?
Also, your link describes Hawaii as a shall-issue state per a previous supreme Court ruling.
There’s Shall Issue and there’s “Shall Issue”. Where I live (Bay area) it’s 18 months wait and about $2,000 in fees including a state appointed psychiatrist who asks questions all of which have obvious correct answers. I think you need a coworker (specifically a coworker) to write a reference letter too. Also there’s a separate law saying you cannot carry in most places, basically rendering the permit useless.
I’m not sure what Hawaii was doing but basically all the blue states have some flavor of this, where in the past your kids just had to go to the same school at the sheriff’s or you had to be an executive at a company or a celebrity and you got to carry anywhere you liked. At least now the same rules apply to everyone?
Okay?
So you’re not sure what Hawaii’s rules on carry permits are, but you’re sure they’re bad, and that excuses not registering a weapon purchased out of state.
For the record, a cursory search says it’s pretty straightforward to get a permit. Like, take a safety course, fill out a form and provide copies of a photo of yourself and get fingerprinted.
And yeah, they do have restrictions on where you can carry, which sounds like a protection of the rights of the rest of the people to me. If people don’t want to be around guns, they should be able to say you can’t bring one into their home or store without explicit permission, at the least.
What I never get is how people who don’t want to be around guns are generally perfectly fine being around people on a payroll to carry guns (not just cops, i mean bodyguards, armored trucks, etc). It takes shockingly little to get that qualification. It’s everything you listed where I live, without any technicalities or weird hoops, much easier than a carry permit, you don’t even need to have a formal personal protection or cash transport business. I know a bunch of people who got guard cards for the hell of it. The fact is the people who jump through all the hoops to get a permit are never the issue.
For one, I’m not sure what that has to do with this conversation. Generally speaking, the sort of person who carries a gun for work isn’t the same sort of person who thinks they need a gun to buy milk.
Second, bold of you to assume that people who don’t want to be around guns are entirely okay with them in the situations you mentioned. Most of them would rather not be around armed police, they would just prefer a police officer to a rando, because again, the cop didn’t get up and think “I better make sure I’m ready to kill people in case it comes up at the grocery store”.
Saw another post and thought of your response here… I think the difference is those of us who know what it takes absolutely feel more comfortable around people who have something to lose, because they do not conflate their position with expertise granting blanket immunity from consequences for their mistakes.
(cop startled by falling acorn, empties gun into occupied building) https://old.reddit.com/r/Idiotswithguns/comments/1aq4jjr/a_bit_excessive/kqaj4kh/
You seem to keep coming back to some belief that I hold cops in some esteem. I don’t.
For all the warts of the profession, they’re still a known quantity. You know why the cop has the gun. You know they completed their minimum of one semester of training and bare minimum psychological evaluation. You know they have a high school diploma.
Anyone else, you know that they could … Afford a gun. If it’s concealed, you know that they took an eight hour course in safety. You know rather little about their stability or anything else. You don’t know why they brought the gun.
In both cases, you also know that they likely exceed those minimums by a fair margin.
As mentioned, cpl holders tend to be enthusiastic and proficient, law abiding citizens. Where I live cops tends to have four year degrees on top of a full year of dedicated police training and supplementary medical training and continuing education requirements.
Again, don’t particularly want to have either around me, but one has less question marks.
Also, linking to idiots with guns isn’t a great way to testify to the responsibility of gun owners.
Small thing I want to point out.
I don’t feel like I need a fire extinguisher in my kitchen to make some pancakes. Is it a good idea? Sure. The chances are really small that I’ll need it, but I’ll be very happy to have it in case the worst case scenario comes up.
I don’t carry a gun to the grocery store because I’m afraid I’ll need it, I carry because I acknowledge that violent crime happens randomly to normal people like me and I’d rather be prepared for it than not. Modern guns retained in concealed holsters are actually very safe. They don’t just “go off” on their own, and the only reason someone would draw theirs is if their life or a loved one’s was in immediate danger.
I don’t get up in the morning thinking “I better make sure I’m ready to kill people in case it comes up at the grocery store.” That’s way too reductive and gung ho.
Do you take your fire extinguisher with you to the store also?
When you drive there, do you make sure to buckle your five point harness and put on your full visor helmet?
Do you carry you basic EMS kit with you at all times? What about a couple doses of narcan? EpiPen?
My point is, the gun is a big piece of equipment for a very niche contingency. There are significantly more likely threats that you can take care of with less burden to your daily life than even the modest inconvenience of carrying a weapon.
Don’t pretend that you need to carry a gun to the grocery store.
You want to carry a gun, for whatever reason.
No one thinks the gun is just gonna magic itself out of the holster and shoot someone.
The point is the gun doesn’t make anyone else feel more safe. No one thinks to themselves “oh good, a stranger with a gun has arrived. That’s just what this Baskin Robbins needed”.
I was highlighting the convenience/safety tradeoff in taking basic precautions against low probability but high risk events. You were incorrectly stating that people feel like they need to carry a gun just to grocery shop, and I explained how that was false. Not sure how that went over your head, but it clearly did.
Ok, name a few? How else would someone mitigate risk of human threats against their life? I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at, but you don’t have to forgo carrying a weapon for self defense in order to eat healthy and exercise to mitigate risk of heart failure. Carrying a gun everyday also isn’t a burden, and I enjoy range time and training. People should be allowed means to self defense if they want it. If they abuse it, they get their rights taken away. It’s really quite simple.
If the goal is having means for self defense against people, concealed carry is the only effective way to achieve it. Pepper spray, taser, knife, or anything else is objectively ineffective. I don’t need a gun to grocery shop, but I do need a gun if I want adequate self defense.
The goal isn’t to make other people feel safe, the goal is to help myself and my loved ones. Other people will never know that I have a gun on me, so whether I actually have one or don’t doesn’t change anything from their point of view.
Its shall issue. Just because you do all that, you can still be denied.