I support Palestinian emancipation, not the actions of Hamas. You’re confusing geopolitical interests of countries that want to weaken the global power of the US and humanitarian interests in Palestinian people to have basic human rights. I guess Ireland is also siding with North Korea if your view is that simplistic. Most of those countries you mentioned just want to weaken the US foothold in the middle east and soft power and don’t have a genuine interest in Palestinian emancipation. You’re the one getting it twisted
Have the civilians been giving warnings to evacuate again and again? Yes. Do they stay behind to die as voluntary martyrs to draw sympathy? Yes.
Those are the facts. And they aren’t doing because they want to “see America weakened” or whatever bs you think you know about. The are doing it because the self determination of individuals through representative government is antithetical to their entire sense of identity and being, you know, rich customs such as stoning women to death for learning too much math and other atrocities.
You think Palestinians like to get killed for Internet fame? That makes no sense, you have no idea what a martyr is here, it’s anyone who dies from the occupying forces.
Your argument boils down to “it’s their fault they died because they wanted to” and “they deserve it because of their backward views” none of which are based in reality. I’ve given you a huge variety of sources you can easily verify on your own accord. Yet you consider that a ‘trick’ unlike the official IDF narrative supported by many western media outlets despite a record of falsified information. Even Biden has literally repeated IDF talking points such as the 40 beheaded babies, until it was quickly proven false and walked back.
Hey when you can’t make an argument call me a racist, which is ridiculous.
I supported statehood for Gaza through October 6. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are not at all comparable to this war right here, though. This war began with an a terrorist-invasion of mass shootings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Israel is in fact a “flawed democracy” by the consensus of political scientists. Still a democracy.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Seperate is the question of the morality of proceeding with a bombing mission that will knowingly kill civilians, even if you’ve warned them. That’s a question for the ballot box.
My logic as to the question of genocide the same logic as every major western power and NATO. My view is hardly unique and whole hard to swallow, not flawed, if I may say so myself.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn. Read the articles people have shared with me, and articles that you read, carefully. Can you identify the date and location of the bombing? As in South Africa’s complaint, the most sensational and horrific stories are attributed to anonymous “reports” or even straight from Hamas.
My followon thought process is simple: when the “reports” do not include material information sufficient to fact check the story, I color in the blanks based on the evidence from the reports I can fact check. And every single time I have fact checked one of these horrific stories, it turns out to be not so horrific because I’ve been able to find attributed sources describing the warnings, sometimes including audio recordings and screenshots, of the warnings that the decedents received, as well as the IDF explanation.
And the next part is simple too: I find the information shared by IDF and Hamas so incongruent that it can only mean that one side is completely lying, and I find that Hamas is the liar because: Hamas never admits it’s fighter are among the dead, and never admits that it’s weapons or infrastructure are in or under the destroyed buildings. It stands to reason that with tens of thousands of rocket attacks and hundreds of miles of tunnels, the air strikes must sometimes be killing Hamas fighters or infrastructure. Therefore, I find Hamas not credible.
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes. Whereas, Hamas openly embraces corruption, social crimes, and war crimes; rather than prosecuting criminals that target civilians; that is Hamas’s objective and in Gaza people are rewarded for doing so, not punished.
To ignore the above reasoning, and nevertheless give credit to unattributed reports or Hamas’s reports, seems like a trick, to me.
In Palestine, the term shahid for “martyr” is used to mean any person who was killed by an aggressor, whether targeted or untargeted, and regardless of religion. Researchers Neil Whitehead and Nasser Abufarha state that the shahid concept of a victim who falls at the hands of an oppressor became a symbol of the First Intifada and was congruent with the political dynamics of the time when efforts were made to lobby international support for Palestinians’ pursuit for independence.
You have all the links to learn about the history of Israel practicing Settler Colonialism and the creation/maintainance of an Apartheid State. You choose to ignore them
Yes, we Palestinians celebrate resisting colonial oppression, and even though a “martyr” is essentially an Islamic term used to describe people who die fighting the enemy, we Palestinians use it for any and every Palestinian of every religion or of no religion out of respect for their struggle, whether they die while fighting or in their homes alongside their whole family.
Yes I know, and glorify them as heroes for the cause. Does Hamas not force people to stay and be killed? Does Hamas not lie to people about whether they are safe, about whether to evactuate? Do not some Palestinians knowingly ignore warnings so that they can be “martyred?”
I don’t think Hamas forces people to stay in places to be killed lol
Do some Palestinians ignore warnings? Yeah I think some decided they’d rather die together as a family with dignity and not risk the risky roads to the “safe zone” and die instead on the streets. I hope you never have to make such a choice in your life…
But no, I don’t think it’s a widespread phenomena to stay in harm’s way… Except when Israel put harm all around you.
It’s funny because it’s literally Israel that orders people into a safe zone then bombs them there…
I hope I never have to make such a choice either. Hamas really sold out every person in Gaza with those tunnels and terrorist attacks, huh?
Does Hamas lie to people to trick them into staying, yes or no? And if yes (it is yes), why?
Orders them into a safe zone, *then calls them on the phone again before the bombing, you mean. *Bombs a military target under the building, not the “them.” That’s the evidence.
Islamic fundamentalists, of which Hamas is included, along with its patron states, Iran and Qatar. I’m exaggerating about the stoning for rhetorical purposes, but not by much.
You claimed that they shoot women for learning math despite there actually being women in Hamas.
You then claimed that you just exaggerated, but only to make the connection between radical Islamism and Hamas.
Then when the evidence you showed doesn’t show Hamas stoning anyone nor adopting the kind of Islam we’d expect of ISIS or the Taliban, you jump to a totally different example with a sassy “Anyhow!”
The point you’re making about Hamas is fine: they are awful dictators, they treat people who oppose them like that. But what I’d like to know is why you are trying to generalize and paint Hamas in a different picture. Also, playing on Islamophobic tropes… interesting, why? They already suck enough, you just have to say real examples directly. And on top of that, almost no one on lemmy will like Hamas or support them in any way, yet in every discussion with you, it starts to be clear that you simply converge to Hamas even though we all dislike them just as much as you do. But that wasn’t good enough maybe?
The point you’re making about Hamas is fine: they are awful dictators, they treat people who oppose them like that. *But what I’d like to know is why you are trying to generalize and paint Hamas in a different picture.
Please excuse my ignorance if I said anything you feel was inaccurate. Certainly not my intention to be wrong about anything. Hamas’s ideological origins did not arise with the founding of Hamas™ in 1987.
It’s an ideology of Sunni Islamism, which is itself an ideology of Sharia law and Islamic separtism, nationalism, supremacy, and violent oppression of anyone that some some unelected cleric or imamate unilaterally says are “the infidels.” And that would largely be fine with me if it wasn’t part of an international coalition of far right authoritarian theocracies bent on one missiom: bleeding out the west using any means necessary including indiscriminate attacks on civilians, suicide bombings, until it can get its hands on nuclear weapons and “destroy the West for good.” It includes virtually all militant Islamists and arise from pan-Islamism.
It is an ideological alliance that can be fairly lumped together for some purposes. It’s not just a total coincidence that this coalition constitutes most of countries supporting South Africa’s application to the UN, many of whom are state sponsors of terrorism, including support for Hamas, as well as other terrorist groups. As I understand it, ISIS and Hamas have virtually identical ideologies with the exception being as to who should be the head of the snake, Iran or the Caliphate. Both organizations are indistinguishable as to their willingings to target civilians, ya know, terrorism, and their desire to bring death to all infidels. Both groups are adherents of jihad.
I’m not saying they are the same, I’m saying they are ideological allies to a point, and that point is well within the bounds of intolerance to western civilization, once they are acting like imperialists I mean.
That’s not to say that imperialism is only okay when the West does it. Rather, it’s to say that it took all humanity including the West thousands of years to come up with government of the people and by the people rather than by some king or some imaginary magicical sky man, and damn it all to hell if decent people fail to stop us from falling back into the dark ages.
Yes it’s true. The UK is not trick averse, as with Brexit. A lot of people there, as in America, are angry want to see the violence stopped. I am too. I just don’t think the violence should stop until Hamas is gone and the area can be rebuilt safely.
It seems clear to me why Irish leadership has more sympathy with Hamas than than folks in the UK. Do you need me to explain their history?
No they cannot defeat Hamas using strategic bombing alone. The strategy is evolving. Already the bombings have slowed way down. Pretty soon it will be man to man combat followed by at least a few years of martial law during reconstruction.
I don’t see any other way forward in Gaza in the short term. Do you? It will look awful for a while but with light at the end of the tunnel. The foundations of the three largest cities were turned to Swiss Cheese, and are completely uninhabitable from a structural standpoint. I imagine the cities must essentially be paved over and rebuilt.
The tunnels are unprecedented. I don’t know that anyone knows what it looks like or how they will deal with pressing concerns such as restoring arable soil. I know Palestinians in Gaza have no institutions in place to address any of these concerns. Hamas should have thought of these innocent people who would suffer the reconstruction before it sold out their foreseeable futures to kill 1,300 Israeli civilians and first repsonders. I know Hamas was super popular in Palestine on October 8.
I’ve said that the Israeli people are going to need to accept their obligation to restore Gaza and its people and that’s going to start with the upcoming elections and whether the Likud party maintains its narrow margin. I have hope they will do the right thing.
I don’t see any other way forward in Gaza in the short term. Do you?
Literally a fucking ceasefire.
It will look awful for a while but with light at the end of the tunnel.
Except for the Palestinians who needlessly had to die
The foundations of the three largest cities were turned to Swiss Cheese, and are completely uninhabitable from a structural standpoint.
Thanks to Israel.
I imagine the cities must essentially be paved over and rebuilt.
Literally admitting that Israel destroyed homes and infrastructure: a fucking war crime.
Hamas should have thought of these innocent people who would suffer the reconstruction before it sold out their foreseeable futures to kill 1,300 Israeli civilians and first repsonders. I know Hamas was super popular in Palestine on October 8.
Would you like just for one second in your life hold Israel (a so-called democracy) up to the same standards you hold Hamas? If Hamas can’t and shouldn’t kill 1,300 Israeli civilians (btw like 1/3 or something were military personnel, and the number was revised down to “1000+” whatever that means), then Israel shouldn’t do the barbaric crap they are doing now that I have no words for.
I support Palestinian emancipation, not the actions of Hamas. You’re confusing geopolitical interests of countries that want to weaken the global power of the US and humanitarian interests in Palestinian people to have basic human rights. I guess Ireland is also siding with North Korea if your view is that simplistic. Most of those countries you mentioned just want to weaken the US foothold in the middle east and soft power and don’t have a genuine interest in Palestinian emancipation. You’re the one getting it twisted
You and Ireland got tricked.
Have the civilians been giving warnings to evacuate again and again? Yes. Do they stay behind to die as voluntary martyrs to draw sympathy? Yes.
Those are the facts. And they aren’t doing because they want to “see America weakened” or whatever bs you think you know about. The are doing it because the self determination of individuals through representative government is antithetical to their entire sense of identity and being, you know, rich customs such as stoning women to death for learning too much math and other atrocities.
“Everyone who disagrees with me has been tricked” /s
Pretty much. Thanks for reading! Lot of bad actors out there right now trying to trick Americans and it seems to be working.
You think Palestinians like to get killed for Internet fame? That makes no sense, you have no idea what a martyr is here, it’s anyone who dies from the occupying forces.
Your argument boils down to “it’s their fault they died because they wanted to” and “they deserve it because of their backward views” none of which are based in reality. I’ve given you a huge variety of sources you can easily verify on your own accord. Yet you consider that a ‘trick’ unlike the official IDF narrative supported by many western media outlets despite a record of falsified information. Even Biden has literally repeated IDF talking points such as the 40 beheaded babies, until it was quickly proven false and walked back.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d say that JustZ guy/gal thinks Gazans are a bunch of camel-piss drinkers…
Classic colonial argument, “We have to bring them democracy! They don’t know any better!”
Worked for the US when invading Iraq and it’s sure as hell working for Israel now lol up to a point.
Hey when you can’t make an argument call me a racist, which is ridiculous.
I supported statehood for Gaza through October 6. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are not at all comparable to this war right here, though. This war began with an a terrorist-invasion of mass shootings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Your basic logic is:
Not only is the idea of Israel being a democracy questionable at best, but also your logical reasoning is flawed.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, I’m saying your logic is bad.
Edit: formatting
You’ve mistated or misunderstood my argument.
Israel is in fact a “flawed democracy” by the consensus of political scientists. Still a democracy.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Seperate is the question of the morality of proceeding with a bombing mission that will knowingly kill civilians, even if you’ve warned them. That’s a question for the ballot box.
My logic as to the question of genocide the same logic as every major western power and NATO. My view is hardly unique and whole hard to swallow, not flawed, if I may say so myself.
Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn. Read the articles people have shared with me, and articles that you read, carefully. Can you identify the date and location of the bombing? As in South Africa’s complaint, the most sensational and horrific stories are attributed to anonymous “reports” or even straight from Hamas.
My followon thought process is simple: when the “reports” do not include material information sufficient to fact check the story, I color in the blanks based on the evidence from the reports I can fact check. And every single time I have fact checked one of these horrific stories, it turns out to be not so horrific because I’ve been able to find attributed sources describing the warnings, sometimes including audio recordings and screenshots, of the warnings that the decedents received, as well as the IDF explanation.
And the next part is simple too: I find the information shared by IDF and Hamas so incongruent that it can only mean that one side is completely lying, and I find that Hamas is the liar because: Hamas never admits it’s fighter are among the dead, and never admits that it’s weapons or infrastructure are in or under the destroyed buildings. It stands to reason that with tens of thousands of rocket attacks and hundreds of miles of tunnels, the air strikes must sometimes be killing Hamas fighters or infrastructure. Therefore, I find Hamas not credible.
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes. Whereas, Hamas openly embraces corruption, social crimes, and war crimes; rather than prosecuting criminals that target civilians; that is Hamas’s objective and in Gaza people are rewarded for doing so, not punished.
To ignore the above reasoning, and nevertheless give credit to unattributed reports or Hamas’s reports, seems like a trick, to me.
Second sentence of your link:
You have all the links to learn about the history of Israel practicing Settler Colonialism and the creation/maintainance of an Apartheid State. You choose to ignore them
Yes, we Palestinians celebrate resisting colonial oppression, and even though a “martyr” is essentially an Islamic term used to describe people who die fighting the enemy, we Palestinians use it for any and every Palestinian of every religion or of no religion out of respect for their struggle, whether they die while fighting or in their homes alongside their whole family.
Yes I know, and glorify them as heroes for the cause. Does Hamas not force people to stay and be killed? Does Hamas not lie to people about whether they are safe, about whether to evactuate? Do not some Palestinians knowingly ignore warnings so that they can be “martyred?”
I don’t think Hamas forces people to stay in places to be killed lol
Do some Palestinians ignore warnings? Yeah I think some decided they’d rather die together as a family with dignity and not risk the risky roads to the “safe zone” and die instead on the streets. I hope you never have to make such a choice in your life…
But no, I don’t think it’s a widespread phenomena to stay in harm’s way… Except when Israel put harm all around you.
It’s funny because it’s literally Israel that orders people into a safe zone then bombs them there…
What is your source? Curious.
I hope I never have to make such a choice either. Hamas really sold out every person in Gaza with those tunnels and terrorist attacks, huh?
Does Hamas lie to people to trick them into staying, yes or no? And if yes (it is yes), why?
Orders them into a safe zone, *then calls them on the phone again before the bombing, you mean. *Bombs a military target under the building, not the “them.” That’s the evidence.
You made the claim about Hamas, you provide the evidence.
Who stones women to death for math? 😬
Islamic fundamentalists, of which Hamas is included, along with its patron states, Iran and Qatar. I’m exaggerating about the stoning for rhetorical purposes, but not by much.
You know who I’m talking about, right around this region here: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_map_showing_countries_where_public_stoning_is_judicial_or_extrajudicial_form_of_punishment.SVG#mw-jump-to-license
Funny how Gaza is not on that map lol
Well the resolution is not fine enough to see. Any place that implements Islamic law though,
Anyhow, Gaza punishes their capital thought crimes with firing squad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Gaza_Strip
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_in_Islam
You claimed that they shoot women for learning math despite there actually being women in Hamas.
You then claimed that you just exaggerated, but only to make the connection between radical Islamism and Hamas.
Then when the evidence you showed doesn’t show Hamas stoning anyone nor adopting the kind of Islam we’d expect of ISIS or the Taliban, you jump to a totally different example with a sassy “Anyhow!”
The point you’re making about Hamas is fine: they are awful dictators, they treat people who oppose them like that. But what I’d like to know is why you are trying to generalize and paint Hamas in a different picture. Also, playing on Islamophobic tropes… interesting, why? They already suck enough, you just have to say real examples directly. And on top of that, almost no one on lemmy will like Hamas or support them in any way, yet in every discussion with you, it starts to be clear that you simply converge to Hamas even though we all dislike them just as much as you do. But that wasn’t good enough maybe?
I appreciate you.
Please excuse my ignorance if I said anything you feel was inaccurate. Certainly not my intention to be wrong about anything. Hamas’s ideological origins did not arise with the founding of Hamas™ in 1987.
It’s an ideology of Sunni Islamism, which is itself an ideology of Sharia law and Islamic separtism, nationalism, supremacy, and violent oppression of anyone that some some unelected cleric or imamate unilaterally says are “the infidels.” And that would largely be fine with me if it wasn’t part of an international coalition of far right authoritarian theocracies bent on one missiom: bleeding out the west using any means necessary including indiscriminate attacks on civilians, suicide bombings, until it can get its hands on nuclear weapons and “destroy the West for good.” It includes virtually all militant Islamists and arise from pan-Islamism.
It is an ideological alliance that can be fairly lumped together for some purposes. It’s not just a total coincidence that this coalition constitutes most of countries supporting South Africa’s application to the UN, many of whom are state sponsors of terrorism, including support for Hamas, as well as other terrorist groups. As I understand it, ISIS and Hamas have virtually identical ideologies with the exception being as to who should be the head of the snake, Iran or the Caliphate. Both organizations are indistinguishable as to their willingings to target civilians, ya know, terrorism, and their desire to bring death to all infidels. Both groups are adherents of jihad.
I’m not saying they are the same, I’m saying they are ideological allies to a point, and that point is well within the bounds of intolerance to western civilization, once they are acting like imperialists I mean.
That’s not to say that imperialism is only okay when the West does it. Rather, it’s to say that it took all humanity including the West thousands of years to come up with government of the people and by the people rather than by some king or some imaginary magicical sky man, and damn it all to hell if decent people fail to stop us from falling back into the dark ages.
Thanks, wish I could say the same about you.
The democratic country of Ireland got tricked? Hmm. What makes the UK trick-averse?
Yes it’s true. The UK is not trick averse, as with Brexit. A lot of people there, as in America, are angry want to see the violence stopped. I am too. I just don’t think the violence should stop until Hamas is gone and the area can be rebuilt safely.
It seems clear to me why Irish leadership has more sympathy with Hamas than than folks in the UK. Do you need me to explain their history?
Do you think they can actually remove Hamas with this strategy they are using now?
No they cannot defeat Hamas using strategic bombing alone. The strategy is evolving. Already the bombings have slowed way down. Pretty soon it will be man to man combat followed by at least a few years of martial law during reconstruction.
And how will that look for the Palestinians there “in a few years’ time”? 🤔
I don’t see any other way forward in Gaza in the short term. Do you? It will look awful for a while but with light at the end of the tunnel. The foundations of the three largest cities were turned to Swiss Cheese, and are completely uninhabitable from a structural standpoint. I imagine the cities must essentially be paved over and rebuilt.
The tunnels are unprecedented. I don’t know that anyone knows what it looks like or how they will deal with pressing concerns such as restoring arable soil. I know Palestinians in Gaza have no institutions in place to address any of these concerns. Hamas should have thought of these innocent people who would suffer the reconstruction before it sold out their foreseeable futures to kill 1,300 Israeli civilians and first repsonders. I know Hamas was super popular in Palestine on October 8.
I’ve said that the Israeli people are going to need to accept their obligation to restore Gaza and its people and that’s going to start with the upcoming elections and whether the Likud party maintains its narrow margin. I have hope they will do the right thing.
Literally a fucking ceasefire.
Except for the Palestinians who needlessly had to die
Thanks to Israel.
Literally admitting that Israel destroyed homes and infrastructure: a fucking war crime.
Would you like just for one second in your life hold Israel (a so-called democracy) up to the same standards you hold Hamas? If Hamas can’t and shouldn’t kill 1,300 Israeli civilians (btw like 1/3 or something were military personnel, and the number was revised down to “1000+” whatever that means), then Israel shouldn’t do the barbaric crap they are doing now that I have no words for.