In a story out of Springfield Elementary School in Des Moines, IA, 9-year-old Max Hannagan, who was suspended for verbally harassing his fellow third graders, has now claimed he was just āpushing boundariesā with his comedy.
āDid I caw Jimmy a loser? Yes,ā Max told reporters while rocking ba
This is the old āWell you canāt say X anymoreā fallacy. You can. You just did. Itās really āYou canāt say X anymore without people criticizing you for it.ā Yeah, thatās just how the right to free speech works. Dave Chappelle has the right to say what he wants. Other people have the right to criticize him for it. People have a right to not watch his comedy special. Netflix has the right to decide to not buy what heās selling. Everyone has their rights, but why is it only some violation of rights when it negatively affects a celebrity? Why is that more of a concern than when Chappelle uses his rights in a way that negatively impacts Trans people? Why is he the one thatās so special that no one is allowed to exercise their right in a way that negatively impacts him?
Why is this a problem? Itās just a TV show, why does it matter?
Teachers are being fired for emotionally abusing children? Thatās what it is, right?
If you were a boy in school and your teacher was constantly calling you a sissy girl. When told to stop the teacher refuses, because āthatās what I see that kid as, nothing but a sissy girl. Itās MUH RIGHT to call anyone I want a sissy girl if thatās how I think of them!ā Would you think, oh well, thatās cool, thatās the kind of attitude someone entrusted with the development of children should have.
Come on, you know the teacher would be fired for calling a cis boy a girl. People have a right to think how they want, but when youāre in a workplace you have to be a professional. If you canāt behave like a professional in the workplace, you get fired. Just how things work.
Itās sad to me how politics have eroded the concept of workplace professionalism. Used to be there was a rule about the three things you donāt talk about at work: sex, religion, and politics. But now thatās been labelled as wokeism or whatever, and people think they have the right to be an asshole in the workplace. Well if your employer has the right to fire you, then they can exercise that right. I have the right to walk into bossās office tomorrow and tell him heās an asshole. And I can do that and no one can stop me. But itās probably not a good career move, is it?
And then thereās that time someone got all passive aggressive at me for referring to them as a they/them. Like, Iām sorry Pat, weāre communicating over email, I donāt know your pronouns unless you tell me. Until you indicate your pronouns I have no other option but to refer to you as a they/them. I understand youāre in a red state, Pat, but pronouns are just words, either put them next to your name or be cool about people that have never met you in person calling you they/them. FFS I donāt actually give a shit about anyoneās gender when Iām at work but I do need to type something to someone else saying āPatās account seems to be locked, could you reset ___ password?ā I gotta put something in that blank, Pat. Help me fill in that blank, ok?
Ok sorry ofr the rant, but the politics around the pronouns are stupid to me. I work with emails and when someone puts their pronouns next to their name (especially when their name is ambiguous) Iām like alright, youāre helping me out there. If there werenāt so many stupid poiltics around this it would make things easier in the workplace for people that communicate over email. Makes things a lot less awkward, but dumb politics prevents people from doing something thatās useful even in scenarios where there are no Trans people involved. Itās like weāre making things more difficult for everyone just to spite trans people.
Do people not have the right to write to Netflix? Does Netflix not have the right to decide what they want to put on their streaming service?
Once again, weāre still in a place where Dave Chappelleās rights matter more than other peopleās rights. The thing about rights is, everyone has them. And many times people will exercise their rights in ways you donāt approve of. To some people the way Dave Chappelle exercises hist rights crosses the line. For you, people writing to Netflix crossed the line. But these lines are all subjective.
So why do people think Dave Chappelleās rights takes precedence over other peopleās rights? Itās just down to para-social behavior. People feeling like Dave Chappelle is their friend so they should stick up for him. If you donāt have any trans people as friends then you donāt feel like sticking up for them.
And thereās the rub. Itās why trans people get targeted. Not many trans people around so most people donāt have any trans people as friends. The whole trans thing is confusing and uncomfortable. Thereās a surgery involved. Thereās a feeling that trans people are trying to trick us into being gay. If you had no morals and needed a convenient target of hatred to manipulate people, which group is the easiest target? Itās trans people. Itās always trans people. Itās the group they always go after first.
Depending on the style of comedy, it can be a part of a comedianās job to understand culture. With Dave Chappelleās comedy style thatās definitely the case. Heās not doing Norm MacDonald style comedy where heās pretending to be the dumbest guy in the room while actually being the smartest guy in the room being meta with anyone knowing. Heās not Conan OāBrien doing some silly things. His comedy is about commentary on culture and relating to the audience. If he canāt understand the cultural impact of the things heās saying, heās being incompetent at his job.
This is not a good thing. How many people died because they listened to Joe Rogan and took horse de-wormer instead of the covid vaccine? We canāt know the number but Iām certain that number is not zero. Yes, celebrities can affect positive change. But they can also create negative change. Having narcissists living in the Hollywood bubble be the arbiters of truth isnāt actually a good thing for society. At one time guys like Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite were the arbiters of truth. Now some coked up actor at an orgy with underage boys mashes 280 characters into their iPhone is what determines whatās real for us now. While Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite may have gotten a few things wrong in their careers, I donāt think what we have now is an improvement.
Also not a good thing. Two million people unemployed and Bill Burr thinks the most important issue is one Hollywood person losing her job. Dave Chappelle thinks his friend not getting to host the Oscars is an important issue. These guys live in a different world from us. They donāt understand what issues issues are important. All they accomplish is making people think the things that impact them are important. Which is a distraction.
In the end of it all thereās nothing anyone can do about cancel culture. You canāt strap people down and force them to watch things they donāt like ala Clockwork Orange. Popular people will be on TV and unpopular people wonāt be. Thatās just show business. The internet offers celebrities new ways to say and do things that will make them unpopular. When that happens you wonāt see them on TV anymore because people donāt want someone they donāt like on their TV screens.
The problem is when you have politicians talking about doing something cultural changes because a celebrity convinced people that a cultural shift is a poltical problem that government should be involved in. Politicians running on anti-woke (whatever that means) cultural issues is a very bad thing. The government shouldnāt be regulating cultural norms and it feels like thatā where things are headed. And Hollywood assholes ranting on podcasts making people feel like nothing burgers like cancel culture being major problems just puts fuel on that fire.
I wish we could go back to the days when if a comedian bombed, the only thing they could do was improve their material. Now itās like they have a power over the audience to make people think their weak material is good and if the audience isnāt laughing itās because the audience is wrong. Itās all backwards.
Make comedy funny again.
(Btw someone already downvoted you and I just wanted to be clear that it was not me)
You are kinda all over the map here - you jumped from hollywood has zero impact on us to how they are trying to kill us. I get it, both are true, in differing ways, but it points to how complex these topics are (e.g. Hollywood has little direct effects on us, and some people in it are highly irresponsible - also, Joe Rogan is from Austin Texas not Hollywood California, but thatās not terribly relevant, just saying that we could get lost in all the little ādetailsā for days on end!:-P).
One simplifying rule: Right or Wrong, the biggest thing in life, at least as it relates to Freedom, seems to me to be the notion of āconsentā. e.g. Hitler/Putin/whoever invades countries: if they somehow wanted that (spank me hardy Nazi daddy) then itās all cool, but on the off-chance that it was nonconsensual, then it is NOT COOL.
If Netflix were to drop Chappelle b/c heās not funny, then thatās their choice. But if they drop him b/c one segment of society has an enormous amount of power, especially in proportion to their numbers, then that is ānot fairā. Why canāt *I* watch Chappelle, if I want to, just b/c ātheyā say that I canāt? Thatās not freedom, and I might have an opinion on that. On the other hand, maybe my opinion is undeserved? Like if Chappelle were to advocate violence against America, that should get him cancelled, or if he were to advocate that we become actual, literal Nazis (even without the urgent and direct call to the actual violence), then that too should get him cancelled. But saying that he is perpetuating āviolenceā against trans peopleā¦
On this point I am willing to be convinced, bc I havenāt managed to come to a firm stance here yet. Although you havenāt even watched his special so you could not be the one to do that for me in any case. On its face though it seems absurd to me - not wanting to call someone by a preferred pronoun is not the same thing as āviolenceā. And to be clear, *I* myself will call people by their preferred pronoun, plus I also will always use ātheyā if it is unknown, but even so I do appreciate his insight there, that consent of all the parties involved should matter. So especially if someone starts the school year with one pronoun and then changes it midway through, it makes sense that it may get difficult to always remember to switch, especially if the person still presents as the other gender (e.g. a man with a deep voice now calling herself a woman - yet still has a deep voice?). Iām saying that itās confusing, and itās NEW.
More to the point, Chappelle barely talks about trans people at all (edit: used to, before the attempt to cancel him over it), except to point out the extreme unfairness of it all. Black people have been trying to be called āpeopleā for HUNDREDS OF YEARS, but then homosexual white men advocate for their chosen lifestyle and suddenly in ONE DECADE win a Supreme Court that makes it legal to get married? And now trans people are coming up, and even though as you say they are so rare that most of us have never even so much as MET one before (I had lots of gay friends - both men & women, and most of the people I become friends with online seem to be homosexual men, I think b/c of the sensitivity aspect that allows us to enjoy talking with one another - but even so I have never met a single trans person in my entire lifetime that I know of), and yet despite that, they instantly get a seat at the table? Suddenly we all have to use whatever pronouns they want? As if they areā¦ āpeopleā? Well, they are, but also: BREONNA TAYLOR WAS SLEEPING!!! His point seems to me to be: why canāt black people be treated the same way - as āpeopleā? - like, whenever a trans person is harmed, people rise up in arms and defend them, but except trans, do that for black? He has this wonderful story about being called into HR and told never to say the āF-a-.ā(-o-t) word again. He agrees, but asks: āwhy notā, especially when he can use the N- word with impunity? The response is that he is not one of them. HIS response in turn is that well, he isnāt an N- word either!?!?!?!:-P
Also, Chappelle has advanced civil rights for his entire lifetime, by breaking into what was previously mostly-white or mostly-black spaces, and bringing audiences together from both races that enjoy his brand. But now the newest minority group has the gall to tell him the equivalent of āthanks bitch-ass n-word, but you can go back out into the fields now, we got thisā. He feels sleighted, he feels ignored, he feelsā¦ much like the trans people must feel, except instead of displaying sensitivity, both of those sides for whatever reason cannot seem to get along.
And then here we are, talking about what is going on in Hollywood, as if it is important:-). But the whole country is getting up in arms over all of this - to the point of checking peopleās literal genitals, bathrooms, in sports, and on and on. Both sides are pushing on this hot-button topic: either for or against, itās YUGE. What I get from Daveās comedy is that if we put even 1% of that energy and attention into solving racism, then it would be over by the end of the day tomorrow. Right or Wrong (the issue did not arise in just one day hence will not be solved in one either), ā¦ he has a point? White people have, once again, appropriated civil rights language and processes, and in so doing managed to entirely ignore the oppression of black people. Like, I donāt know if refusing to use preferred pronouns is a form of āviolenceā (I cannot imagine that it feels very nice, but is that word too extreme?), but what is happening all across the nation to black people - e.g. in Ferguson MO - is ACTUAL VIOLENCE. And it would be nice if BOTH issues were to receive attention, although at the time a lot of his specials were coming out (before BLM, before the situation with Floyd was caught on camera), trans were getting nearly all of the attention while black people little to none, at least, on the larger scale. Thankfully, that has changed somewhat. Exceptā¦ has it though?
(Btw I donāt care about internet points so donāt worry about it)
I think it sounds all over the place because I recognize that Hollywood is something thatās a significant thing in our society BUT I donāt think it should be.
Seems like a downward spiral to me. So heās making more and more of his routine based not on making the funniest jokes possible, heās making his routine about spite. Sorry I donāt find spiteful people all that funny.
I think thereās too much focus on whether or not Dave Chappelle has a right to say what heās saying that there isnāt enough consideration given to whether or not what heās doing is actually right. Heās bullying people in his show. Creating a culture where itās normalized to denigrate people that are already has a big target on them.
While everyone has a right to say something that is wrong, trying to keep the discussion focused only on the right to say something is just avoiding the fact that Chappelle is in the wrong here.
I love Norm MacDonaldās (RIP) take on this. Something like āyeah I might be just joking around about trans people but then someone takes it the wrong way and beats the shit out of a trans person.ā Norm was one of the most fearless comedian of all time but he stopped making trans jokes. Not because he was afraid of being cancelled (itās Norm, cāmon) but because he understood that an old joke isnāt as important as someone getting the shit kicked out of them. Even if thereās only a possibility of that happening is it worth it? Itās just entertainment, itās not really worth that much.
Sometimes jokes just expire. Old jokes that just arenāt funny anymore just have to be retired.
So I was a teenager when the movie Ace Ventura Pet Detective came out. Prime demographic for that movie. At the end of the movie there are a lot of trans jokes. I laughed at these jokes. But in the thirty years since that movie came out, Iād like to think I learned a few things. One of the things Iāve learned in the decades since seeing that movie was that trans people are people. Those jokes were mean spirited. And if I see that movie again, the ending only reminds of what a stupid shit I was when I was a teenager. Iād be cringing too hard to be capable of laughing at those jokes. So Iāll probably not be watching Ace Ventura again because I know the cringe thatāll be having at the end of the movie. Cancelled.
In my town many years before I was born there were minstrel shows. You know shows, where guys put on blackface and pranced around like fools. My parentās generation had a discussion about this one time. People would pack up the kids go to these shows and have a good time. But then at some point people realized āwait this is super racist.ā and everyone started going to the shows. So the people that did the shows made some changes. No more black face. From that point forward it just be a show with clowns. Same basic show, but no more blackface. You know what happened? Nobody went. People just didnāt feel good about buying tickets, packing up the kids and going to the show even after the blackface element was removed. When itās an entertainment product, it really doesnāt take all that much to decide ānah Iām not going to make effort to go to something I donāt feel completely good about.ā The show was shut down permanently. Cancelled.
Culture changes, what was funny in the past is no longer funny now. So why is Dave Chappelle still making trans jokes 30 years after Ace Ventura? Is there a link there to the anti-trans politics happening now?
Dave Chappelle isnāt worth watching now. If Netflix doesnāt want their brand associated with Chappelleās downward spiral into bigotry (which isnāt funny to a lot of people), they have the right to disassociate themselves from him. He has a right to say what he wants to say, but there is no right to have a comedy special on Netflix. If thatās the case, I want to star in a comedy special on Netflix, I think Iām a funny guy. If Netflix denies me a comedy special, will you be angry about them denying me my rights?
Or is it because Dave Chappelle is famous he has the right to be on Netflix? And weāre back to that para-social relationship with celebrities that makes people feel they deserve special treatment and they have the right to things we donāt have a right to.
Dave Chappelle has the right to say what he wants even when heās wrong. But that doesnāt mean he isnāt wrong. Netflix has the right to cancel his show, itās their streaming site. People have the right to petition Netflix to cancel Chappelle.
None of this wouldāve happened if Chappelle had a better awareness of the shifts in cultural norms. Which is part of his job. He didnāt do his job very well, and anyone
And is Dave Chappelle making things better? Perhaps itās better for Netflix to stop showing his specials until people settle down a little?
Also itās not quite a both sides kind of thing. One side wants to take away peopleās right to live their lives how they want. The other side wants everyone to continue to have that right. Itās not so much pushing the issue, itās more like pushing back against people that want to take away rights from a group thatās a convenient target. Trans people have been around my whole life. Why all of a sudden all this urgency about this? Could it be something fabricated by people that want to take away rights, and this happens to be the group that a lot of people would tolerate losing rights? Call me paranoid, but I donāt know if the people that want to take away the rights of one group of people will stop there.
And these are actual rights. not Hollywood ārightsā which seem to be all about the ārightā of famous narcissists to remain famous even when people donāt like them anymore. Donāt worry so much about Chappelle, heās a millionaire, heāll be fine. Trans people thoughā¦ Iām not sure if theyāll be fine if things keep going the way they are.
One thing that bugs me: when Jon Stewart was accused of making fun of trans people, he had the grace and class to apologize. e.g. he made a joke one time about a ātranny prostituteā, and he indicated that he was sorry, and realizes now that it was wrong - people should never āpunch downā.
The thing with Chappelle is that as a black man, it is not clear that has ever āpunched downā? Even so, he probably should have risen to the occasion and just apologized. I think heās correct in what heās saying, though profits off of saying it offensively so does that. Which still advances the cause of getting the issues discussed more broadly in society, but also rankles a bit - a role that he seems okay with, and might even be necessary, though not one that we should ever aspire to ourselves. He at least is smart enough to handle walking that line, and deal with whatever consequences may come.
Also, oddly enough, whether itās due to Chappelleās challenges or whatever, I hear some of the same talk coming from actual LGBTQ comedians? e.g., there is a difference b/t āsexā and āgenderā - like if a big dude walks up to you, with a beard and a deep voice, and says that they are a woman, obviously they must be referring to the latter rather than former, but itās not always so easy to tell otherwise.
Though Chappelle is saying that from the āoutsideā, while there are other dicussions happening from the āinsideā, so he still gets razed b/c he shouldnāt be the one saying it, even if they are identical words. Context matters. Also, he says it in an insensitive manner, b/c that too is his style of reaching out to poor, less educated people.
And all of this is complicated still further by the actions of the other side - e.g. there was some controversy about how employees of Netflix tried to force their way into director-level meetings about the subject, and they were fired. Was that b/c they were trans? Notā¦ entirely, or even mostly - they were fired b/c they were acting entitled and ignoring the standards of professional behavior. Though there was a huge outcry b/c how dare Netflix fire people āfor being transā. (Also relevant, their being trans themselves gave them sympathy, which lead to why they acted the way that they did, feeling personally impacted).
Remember though, ācancellingā isnāt simply choosing not to go to a show anymore - thatās your personal choice, and it does not rise to ācancellingā until something like a gang of bikers blocks all the roadways leading into the show. The show people paid money for the venue, did the advertising, rented the space, got the permits, travelled, using their gasoline, and on and on it goes - and some of the audience members likewise wanted to come, but something in-between the seller and the buyer blocked them, ācancellingā the show, setting themselves up as the moral authority to show-block the will of all of the other parties. i.e., they acted as Karens, exactly in the same manner as those states that are trying to block medical care to trans people, but on the other side. Whenever you set yourself up to be the moral authority of a subject, different expectations begin to be applied to a āleaderā rather than a mere participant.
Hereās an interesting article on it: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/06/1050313989/netflix-dave-chappelle-cancel-culture-trans-employees:
Soā¦ there are problems and imperfect steps taken by all sides of this matter. And it does not help that trans people seem like they could care less about issues faced by black people - they just want theirs, and thatās all. It would help if we all could push just for ācivil rightsā and have that be inclusive of ALL, but b/c of the extremely low numbers, plus the extreme severity of the issues faced by black people, if that were to happen then trans people would not have gotten a fraction of the attention that has been awarded there in the past (if effort was put in according to that principle āto each according to their needā). Again, words may hurt peopleās feelings butā¦ you know what I am going to say donāt youā¦ BREONNA TAYLOR WAS SLEEPING!!! Those are not at the same level at all.
Itās not like thereās a hierarchy of which group is worse off than the other. Chappelle is a multi-milliionaire with Netflix specials. Money = power, and heās got a lot of money. So he has a lot more power than the people heās attacking. Thatās punching down. If a trans person was as wealthy and well established as Dave Chappelle and started talking shit about black people, it would be also be punching down. Money has a big part to play in this, as it does in most aspects of our society.
Itās generally accepted that itās fine for members of a group to talk about their own group. Within reason, of course. Nobody is upset if Dave Chappelle makes commentary on the black community.
I dunno. Probably just ask. Generally if youāre respectful to others youāre not going to have problems when thereās confusion.
Yup. Thatās how it works on lots of things. If I say āthere are a lot of problems with the USā do those words have different meaning if itās an American saying it vs. if a non-American says it? If itās an American saying it, itās an invitation to discuss the problems of the country with a peer. If a non-Amercan says it, It comes off as a little judgemental doesnāt it?
Yeah ultimately companies are all about making money. I always laugh when people say things like Disney is woke. Or Hasbro is woke for how they market Potato heads. Or the Dr. Seuss Company is woke for pulling some books. Thereās actually something these companies have in common. They all make products directed at young people. Theyāve done market research and they decide things based on what will make them money.
Disney fired Gina Corano so that Millenials would feel comfortable watching the next season of Mandorian with their kids. It was important for those kids to see what Mandoās new spaceship looked like so they would want that toy for Christmas. Because thatās what Disney really cares about: money.
It may shock you to learn that there are actually black trans people.
Agree completely. But consider that those that are against this may be taking a divide and conquer approach. Pit various minority groups against one another so people canāt unite in a common cause for rights for everyone. Trans people are always the group that people using this approach go after first. Like I say, theyāre a very small group, not a lot of people have trans friends, people feel confused and uncomfortable about trans people. So itās easy to isolate them and take away their rights. But people that are all about taking away peopleās rights usually donāt stop with just trans people.
If we want people to unite for the common interest of civil rights for everyone, then is Dave Chappelle helping in that cause?
The answer to that depends: is he correct? Even so, it does not help that he was being crass. Bc of the latter, even if trans people themselves end up coming to the same endpoint, they seem unlikely to thank him? Then again, he was not advocating for trans people, he was advocating for black, at which point it seems helpful how he pointed out what the the prioritization should be: danger to life first, then secondary concerns.
The Kremlin doesnāt pay you enough.