lemmy deleted my completely finished post right before posting so let’s try this again. I find it so annoying that I have to sugarcoat everything. I feel like I’m coddling people. I understand being polite to strangers, but it’s so annoying when my family, who knows I’m autistic, gets upset at my bluntness. I’ve explained multiple times that I’m not trying to be rude and I’m just trying to communicate in a way that works for me, but it doesn’t work. I just don’t understand why I have to say “hey, would you mind not letting the dogs tangle? thank you:)” in some high pitched voice when I could just say, “can you not let the dogs tangle?” in a tone that conveys I’m serious. it’s so much easier when intentions are simply stated.
edit: I’m having trouble posting comments but thank you for all your responses! it’s helping me see things a bit easier, and I definitely have things I can work on now :)
another edit for clarity: my family and I have talked about my communication style. I’ve tried to find ways to meet them in the middle, as I want a compromise. they’ve been unsuccessful but I’m continuing to try. I want to be at a point where it’s not stressful and exhausting to talk to my family. this was more of just a vent post, as I was feeling really annoyed.
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Also, blunt can be rude, but it doesn’t have to be. “Can you not let the dogs tangle?” is, by itself, serious and blunt. It sounds like it’s possible that you adding additional tone on top of the words is where the disconnect happens.
Sometimes saying “hey, would you mind not letting the dogs tangle? Thank you :)” in a normal voice IS the most blunt and efficient answer. It almost guarantees no pushback. You say it, they do it, done. You saved yourself your current frustration, AND you achieved the goal of not letting the dogs tangle, with almost no extra work.
I hadn’t thought about it that way. you’ve given me something to work on lol :)
Alternative middle ground: “Please don’t let the dogs tangle.”
I struggled with tact for a long time, but after years of trying to be conscious if it with my interactions, I feel like I’m making progress. It’s something we have to practice consciously to have any success at.
The biggest success I saw was when I permanently changed “can you not (insert thing)” to “Please don’t (insert thing).” Also, no longer using that high pitched tone but “using my tummy voice” helps me feel more grounded without stomping my feet. Others tell me it feels more authentic when I use my words with that voice, and it comes off more like the “real me.” It took about 4 years to get used to it, but now it feels good!
To add to this, starting with ‘can you not’ is automatically framing it to people who are bothered by this as a negative interaction because the starting premise is negative (‘don’t do the thing’).
If you reframe it in the opposite way (‘do the thing’) with a ‘please’ to soften it a bit you’ll probably have more luck, eg:
‘Please can we keep the dogs untangled?’ (‘We’ also helps here because you’re assuming some of the responsibility for keeping the dogs untangled rather than it sounding like you’re pointing a finger of blame which will get people’s backs up pretty quickly)
Not autistic but worked in complaint management for a long time and learned how to more effectively get people on side. Also have ADHD and speak without thinking a lot and it helps to understand why whatever I just blurted out annoyed someone!
that makes a lot of sense, orders are annoying. in the case of the dogs, I’ll purposely walk ahead to keep them not tangled, and tell people that, and they walk even closer, so I guess I’m just not thinking about throwing in a please 💀 but hey, now I have a new challege: be polite even when three dogs are ripping you in opposite directions
That sounds so frustrating! Lots of inconsiderate dog owners out there. I don’t know if this is a thing where you are, but we have a thing where a yellow collar or yellow ribbon indicates a dog who needs space. Now that may not actually be true for your dogs but it might encourage some more clued-up dog owners to give you a wider berth. Doesn’t solve the overall thing you were asking about but might help a bit with dog related issues.
ETA: ‘Please can you help me to…’ would work better for this as well.
that’s so cool, what? I’ll definitely have to look that up, maybe try and make it a thing in my neighborhood 👀 it would definitely be helpful, as there are dogs in over half the houses in my neighborhood
You don’t have to convey you’re serious as much as you might think. You put too much emphasis on being serious (or whatever emotion), it’s heavy handed. It’s like jerking the steering wheel when you can gently glide it. No one wants to be in a car with someone who is being a jerk (or jerking the steering wheel too hard if you get the metaphor). You might not realize that you are being a jerk, but that 100% doesn’t mean that you aren’t. If you want the people in your life to stay in your life you’re gonna have to meet them halfway. I’m not saying that they are right or giving them a pass. But you can only control yourself and at some point you gotta realize it’s you as much as it is them. It’s not binary.
that’s honestly a really good way to look at it. I guess for me it always feels that someone is pulling the wheel away and not letting me help drive, just saying that i wont help, so when I do get a turn I want to make sure no one misinterprets where I’m going, and there’s no BS on the way. but people also want to actually enjoy the drive. which, I think I can try and do more :) my dad makes it super hard, as he won’t let other people talk and purposely misconstruse our words, so I think that on top of my AuDHD just makes it super hard to know how firm to be lol. but that’s no reason to not work and try and improve 😌
When I was younger, I used to fall into this pit-trap myself. The big problem is language and communication just don’t work like you’d want it to.
What you intended don’t really matter, it’s all about other people’s interpretations of your intentions. So when you say:
“can you not let the dogs tangle?”
Your bluntness leaves an uncertainty in their interpretation of your intentions, which they will fill in with your serious tone as being minorly aggressive and accusatory. Naturally they will take offense at that.
Those platitudes exist to eliminate that uncertainty, to make sure that their interpretation of your intentions matches more closely to what they actually are. It works great for neurotypical folks as most of them have a natural intuition using these platitudes (or not using them to cause offence.).
We have to do much more to learn what those folks grasp naturally, and it can be a source of stress. It’s part of what causes my social anxiety, as even now I’m not particularly great at reading the cues neurotypical folks give off, so I struggle to come up with a timely response.
No one likes taking orders. Requesting something in the form of a question makes it seem like they are helping you rather than obeying you. “Do you think it’s a good idea to let the dogs tangle?” is better than “can you not let the dogs tangle” which is negative and could be taken as bossy. There are studies that support this.
My wife asks similar questions as you. I think neurotypicals have learned to correlate certain tones/mannerisms with certain emotions, and when they don’t match up it’s jarring. As for why they can’t seem to make an exception for you, well, I think it’s just that it’s so ingrained that they cant help it. They could TRY, but deep down they would still expect things to be a certain way, so it might grate on them until they just give up. Depends on their level of empathy and patience I suppose.
when I talked to my sister about it, she said she understands and it’s just different for her, so we both have to work on adjusting to each other, which makes sense. yaknow, find a middle ground. but some people just won’t ajust or try to understand and I find it so infuriating
Think of it as speaking a foreign language. If you went to Spain, you would need to communicate in a way that people there understand wouldn’t you? Think of communicating with neurotypical people as being in a different country. Their language is has the same words but convey meaning differently based on tone and a bunch of other stuff.
In case of the dogs, the neurotypical communication carries information regarding how much fault you assign to that person and yourself, whose stakes are higher, what is the expected action, what are the possible consequences of not doing that and so on entirely in non-verbal format, something that we have trouble with.
The could you and thank you part is essentially communicating that you’re acknowledging (and in a way probing) that they didn’t probably commit the act out of malice or neglect and giving them room to communicate, while also indicating that they would be helping you by not letting it happen.
Now I am not great at emulating light tone or the correct expressions so I usually just say all of this explicitly in my normal tone. That seems to work mostly.
I just don’t understand why I have to say “hey, would you mind not letting the dogs tangle? thank you:)” in some high pitched voice when I could just say, “can you not let the dogs tangle?” in a tone that conveys I’m serious. it’s so much easier when intentions are simply stated.
I think part of your problem actually starts even earlier, because it exists in both examples. You use you-statements. Neurotypicals hate these and feel directly accused of something. So softening the you-statement helps.
If it makes sense to you and comes more easy you can try something that is also taught to neurotypicals who look into learning about communication: Avoid you-statements and instead use I-statements that are about you and the situation, not them and the situation.
There are a lot of resources about that on the internet (because as said, even the Neurotypicals need to learn about that) but here’s one example where they explain the difference and how it’s perceivedBut here you’d instead say “I don’t like when the dogs tangle”. Neurotypicals will see a problem that needs to be solved and go like “hey, I can help” instead of becoming defensive about the perceived accusation that they did something wrong. It’s not a guarantee that it works but studies show a lot higher acceptance for I-statements.
I think my first reply deleted, but that makes so so much sense. I learned about that in communication class and completely forgot. for me, i like you statements because they have clear intentions and instructions, but I need to try and remember that most people don’t see it that way
People suck. Unfortunately I find I’m constantly having to cater to other people’s feelings but when something upsets me, I’m still somehow in the wrong.
Everyone feels this. We are all unwilling partners in a dance we didn’t choreograph.
Yes, this is life. We all feel like this almost all the time.
I’m just trying to communicate in a way that works for me
Maybe try communicating in a way that works for them? This isn’t autism, it’s narcissism.
I have tried communicating with my family their way for years. i try to talk to them about my needs. they still don’t listen, nor work on communicating, except for my sister. I’m exausted from trying to communicate in the way they want with nothing changing. im tired every day i interact with them because they wont listen to my mental needs, just physical. i want our communication to be a compromise, but they won’t try to even understand why this way of communicating works for me. i would be completely ok meeting them in the middle if they tried. I want to meet them in the middle for all of our sakes. but no. and my father IS a narcissist so maybe don’t assume. he’s straight up said that we communicate how he wants to communicate or he won’t listen. I’m not the one who screams at people when don’t talk the way I like (aka both my parents and grandma), I’m just some dude who was exausted and annoyed and went to lemmy to talk it out
Except absolutely nobody is going to return the favour. Everyone communicates in the way they know how and comes in a more natural way to them. You just expect OP to neither eat or have the cake.
No they don’t. Autistic people maybe. Neurotypicals will modify their speech patterns to be better understood by the person they’re talking to.
That’s the most abelist answer in this thread so far.
“Maybe if your wheelchair is bothering them, try walking”Analogy works, though.
“This place isn’t wheelchair accessible but I need to go there”
“Can you walk? Do that.”
If OP is low functioning enough that that’s not a possibility, then other options can be explored. Or to return to the analogy, if he’s totally paraplegic, then other options can be explored.
Family is home. You shouldn’t have to mask or modify at home. You be you, and they can just get the hell over it or not. Don’t let them push you around.
people interpret tone as emotion, where a more serious tone conveys that you might be mad about something they think (true or not) they are not at fault for; a playful tone makes that “load” lighter and doesn’t sound as “accusing” (for lack of a better word).
it’s just a byproduct of language and culture that can be as difficult to overcome as it can be understood. lots of things could be easier if everyone changed, but when’s the last time everyone agreed on something?
(at least this is what I’ve come to understand)
edit: also!! comments like “you are not responsible for others” are only half-true. while you shouldn’t be bearing the weight of others, you can’t ignore it completely! people come to expect a certain level of comradery when close to them. if you act without care to others, they will become distanced since they may not see you caring for their mental/emotional well-being (as one should, including you and I!).
a certain amount of care is required to keep eachother comfortable, this amount can vary and requires experimentation if you’re not already accustomed. it’ll be scary but it’s the best way forward (in my option)
This is what I was going to say, tone equals emotion. When I get very tired I lose the tone in my voice and sound like a flat robot. For poeple who don’t know me well this comes off as being very disinterested and cold, even if my words aren’t. Poeple react to tone as much as the words spoken.
yessss I feel like my “normal” tone or whatever you call it is generally perceived as cold no matter what I’m talking about. and usually I can cover it but when I’m tired or stressed it can be exausting doing it all say
I definitely want to communicate in a way everyone likes. since I can’t control how my words are perceived, i try really hard usually to fit other people’s standards. I don’t want to make communication hard for others like people make if for me. and I don’t want to upset anyone. but then when i ignore how i want to communicate, when im stressed all the bluntness comes out in full force. I really hope we can find a good group compromise, cause I don’t want people to be offended or me to be exausted.
learning to use tone correctly and actively thinking about it (as opposed to passively using it like others do) can definitely be tiring since it’s basically an exercise to your mind. the only way to get to the “passive use” state is to do it until it doesn’t get tiring anymore.
however, the stressed->blunt part does sounds like a normal response, since that tone seems to convey your emotions at that time. if you’re feeling stressed alot for this to be common, i would also try to manage stress better, like cutting up tasks into easily manageable parts (but don’t cut them too small, as that can make them unmanageable and hard to keep track of!) and giving yourself time to destress by doing things you like to do (video games, shows, videos, music, … hobbies in general, …), but also don’t overdo it and leave you actual responsibilities behind
(remember that this comment, like most here, comes from experience, not study so might not work for you or need tweaking)
I just try to remember to preceded or follow anything I say with please.
“Please don’t let the dogs tangle.”
I felt so extremely frustrated when a friend made a huge deal of how “I thought I was always right and nobody else counted”. Okay, fair enough, but explain further since that doesn’t sound nothing like me. I had taken his opinion into consideration and changed my mind tons of times.
Turns out I had to precceed any statement about politics with wich he didn’t agree with “in my opinion” or something like that. Every. Single. Time.
It’s especially frustrating as it’s completely meaningless. Of course it’s my opinion and not someone else’s. Of course I believe it’s probably right, otherwise it wouldn’t be my current view on the topic.
“Can you not let the dogs tangle?” sounds like you’re telling people what to do. Normies typically get offended by that because they wanna feel like it’s for them. If you rephrase it to sound like they’re doing it for you they may be more receptive. “I’m worried the dogs might get hurt, would you stop them from tangling?”
Can you not? Is rude as it expects the worst, and is a form of language used to admonish rather than request something or.
Don’t let them tangle. Thanks. Is better and telling someone directly.
You and me baby ain’t nothin but mammals. People are just animals reacting to stimulus, as much as we’d like to think more of ourselves.
But what’s his goal? To be right? Or to have his needs met? If he just wants to be right then by all means, technically OP did what they needed to do, they set a boundary and expected someone close to them to honor it. But OP’s needs still didn’t get met.
I actually think that that could work with my family. thank you!
You can be blunt. You are not responsible for the feelings of others.
and they are not responsible for the feelings of OP. Why should they have to accept OPs way of being blunt when OP won’t do the same for them? Being autistic isn’t an excuse for being a jerk.
OP talks about feeling like they have to coddle people, and I guarantee they 100% feel the same when talking to OP.
I’m just trying to communicate in a way that works for me
Here’s the kicker, you have to communicate in a way that works for people other than yourself when you aren’t talking to only yourself. Everyone would like to be blunt all the time, but then we’d argue more and constantly be at each other’s throats.
OP should read about diplomacy, especially between countries without similar languages.
Your comment is wrong and obtuse.
It hurts, doesn’t it? We might not be responsible for other’s feelings, but we are fully responsible for our own communication. By all means be firm and assertive, but don’t be gratuitously rude, you’ll be needlessly hurting others. They might brush it off, but do it repeatedly and they’ll become hostile.
Of course, sometimes hurting others is the only way to go, but it’s a last resource.
Why would that hurt?
I was trying to provide a counter claim to the idea that your are required to not be blunt, but doing it in a blunt way. I feel like it’s up to an individual how much they care about others. If being nice is not something you care about, free yourself to not be nice and accept the consequences.
And others are free to think you’re a dick.
That said, "can you not let the dogs tangle?” isn’t rude in the slightest in my book. I don’t get the tonality in this either. I tend to be pretty dry with my humor, with my delivery being as dry and tone serious. It’s a hit or miss with strangers but those that know me get that they’re jokes. I don’t really understand why OP’s family doesn’t just chill, this the way op is. I guess they might be protective or annoyed by it as op knows there is this lovey dovey over the top friendly way to say stuff as well. Might be cultural. But I’d be annoyed by this too.
You can be blunt but dont be shocked if people think youre a cunt. Much like we expect neurotypicals to respect the differences in the way our brains work, so should we of them.
