Not agreeing with each other is not a reason to dismiss an entire way of thinking. Look at us! Two atheists disagreeing!
There is an important difference, though.
We base our opinions, thoughts, perspectives, and experiences on worldly happenings, observable truths, testable hypothesis, etc.
Religious worldview and “rules” are governed by the same text and same governing body (i.e. the Vatican in the case of Catholics), so they should be on par 100%. A Catholic Church on one street should have the same worldview as the Catholic Church down the street from them, or the one an entire state over.
If they don’t, they are either making up their own interpretations of the same text, doing whatever because it’s convenient for them, or they don’t take their religion seriously enough.
I mean, if they literally believe that God gave them a set of rules to live by, or that God appointed someone to interpret those rules for them, then changing those rules would be failing their test of faith; which is critical, since faith is perhaps the most important thing that God wants out of them, second to begging for forgiveness.
That’s why the idea of religion and religious organizations is silly beyond belief.
There can be many interpretations of all texts, including both religious and scientific texts. Those multiple interpretations come from being different people with different backgrounds, experiences, and cultural upbringing - rather than convenience or zealotry by necessity.
Scientists read the same texts, and study the same subjects all the time and come to different conclusions and that’s seen as a positive - arguably because the only way to deeply understand anything is from multiple perspectives. Some of the most important scientific breakthroughs happen when alternatives to deeply established ideas emerge.
Religious folks believe a whole diversity of things, just like atheists and scientific folks do.
We don’t need to argue the legitimacy of atheism as a position by making science into something it’s not - namely an unbiased, entirely monolithic, entirely perfect way of understanding the world.
Religion is not silly, its sets of cultural practices and beliefs that a huge majority of the population finds meaningful in some way - and for that reason deserves some form of respect even by non religious folks. Religion isn’t the problem. Many forms of dominant religious practice, however, have shown to have real, human, social, and environmental harms. That’s the problem.
There can be many interpretations of all texts, including both religious and scientific texts. Those multiple interpretations come from being different people with different backgrounds, experiences, and cultural upbringing - rather than convenience or zealotry by necessity.
The biggest difference, however, is that you can test a scientific interpretation, repeat a study, etc. You can be proven wrong or validated as right.
But with religion, there are no checks and balances. You are quite literally able to make up whatever interpretation you like, and you’d be neither right nor wrong. This is a massive conflict of what (organized) religion is.
You see, it really doesn’t make any sense that the literal word of god would even need to be interpreted, since it should be clear as day for all to understand. At least, that’s what I’d expect out of an all powerful god. And if enough people are misinterpreting the text, well, Mr. Bossman needs to come down and sort that shit out, right?
Scientists read the same texts, and study the same subjects all the time and come to different conclusions and that’s seen as a positive - arguably because the only way to deeply understand anything is from multiple perspectives. Some of the most important scientific breakthroughs happen when alternatives to deeply established ideas emerge.
Again, if God himself says “X is true”, there is absolutely no room for re-interpretation or a change in perspective. In science, it’s EXPECTED and WELCOMED that theories will evolve, be improved, be found to be wrong, be found to have more evidence in support of it, etc.
For example, if X religion states that gays are bad, then you’d either have to believe that as the word of god, or ignore it.
If you ignore it, then do you really have faith in that religion? Of course not.
But if you choose to follow that belief, even if it goes against what you know to be true, then it makes you look foolish.
The biggest difference, however, is that you can test a scientific interpretation, repeat a study, etc. You can be proven wrong or validated as right.
As it turns out, not all the time. In fact, not even all that frequently. Popper criticized the idea of verification, Kuhn criticized the idea of falsification, and neither idea solves the demarcation (between science and non-science) problem. For a quick reference that won’t require a number of books, try this.
You see, it really doesn’t make any sense…
It doesn’t make sense to you based on what your ideas of legitimate knowledge are - and you’re making some major generalizations about how religion operates. For some religions there is a monotheistic deity, and for some of those religions the word of that deity is immutable law. But even in those cases, there is significant debate over what exactly constitutes the “word of God” - I mean, it’s why there’s so many different sects and factions (and even those argue internally). Just like in science, there are different interpretations of our observed world, and some interpretations become more dominant than others - and not always because they best align with our observations of the physical world.
No, it actually makes no sense that a relgion can simultaneously believe that the earth is 6000 years old AND that it’s billions of years old based on how they interpret canon.
I was raised Catholic, and still can’t believe the absolute absurdity that grownups are telling themselves with absolute convict that they know the true word of the lord. It’s as sad as it is hilarious.
it’s why there’s so many different sects and factions
No, the OP explains that, and it’s because these religions are all bullshit and based on bullshit. Of the hundreds of Christian denominations, which is right? One of them? All of them? Some of them? None of them?
If there is disagreement about things that should be crystal clear, who’s right? And who gives them the authority to “be right”? To them, only god knows the Truth, so any reinterpretation would be false by default.
No, it actually makes no sense that a relgion can simultaneously believe that the earth is 6000 years old AND that it’s billions of years old based on how they interpret canon.
Again, to you. That makes sense to the people who do believe that. It’s just simply that you have - literally - different ways of making sense.
The OP on this thread only says “That’s a 100% true observations. Most religions can’t even agree with themselves.” and I’m (being a giant pain in the ass and) responding specifically to your emphasis that it is this disagreement that invalidates religious thought. I still hold that there’s no issue with disagreement within or among religious groups, in terms of the validity of their worldviews.
Religions have come up with ways of determining who is “right” under various conditions of dispute, just as science and other fields (like law), have. I am by no means a Catholic scholar, but I am very much under the impression that the religious texts Christianity are based on require translation efforts, and that those translation efforts can lose meaning in translation, not just between languages but between historical contexts - like many other historical texts. As such, they require study and interpretation - something that even those most fervent and uneducated of followers seem to understand.
What evidence is there for the fundamental assertion within Christianity that the Christian god exists in the first place? What room is there for questioning that assertion? And don’t give me that “intelligent design” bullshit either. That argument has been debunked a thousand times already. ~Strawberry
What evidence is there for the fundamental assertion within Christianity that the Christian god exists in the first place?
None, as far as I’m aware! I’m not defending the religion.
What room is there for questioning that assertion?
In some factions, plenty. In others, not so much. I’ve met plenty of Christian folks that don’t believe in intelligent design, and it’s not like they’re immediately ejected from the church - and this appears to even be true among Catholicleadership. It’s a controversy.
And don’t give me that “intelligent design” bullshit
I think you have the wrong idea about me, which is understandable, given how annoying I’m being.
The biggest difference is that science is a religion that questions itself while every other religion explicitly don’t want you to question it.
Science actively seeks out being wrong because if you arrive at a point where no one can disagree with a conclusion, you may have arrived at the truth.
Plenty of religions self-question. And scientists are just as prone to getting stuck in their opinions and trying to suppress dissenters as any other human. Anyone with knowledge of scientific history should see that.
There is an important difference, though.
We base our opinions, thoughts, perspectives, and experiences on worldly happenings, observable truths, testable hypothesis, etc.
Religious worldview and “rules” are governed by the same text and same governing body (i.e. the Vatican in the case of Catholics), so they should be on par 100%. A Catholic Church on one street should have the same worldview as the Catholic Church down the street from them, or the one an entire state over.
If they don’t, they are either making up their own interpretations of the same text, doing whatever because it’s convenient for them, or they don’t take their religion seriously enough.
I mean, if they literally believe that God gave them a set of rules to live by, or that God appointed someone to interpret those rules for them, then changing those rules would be failing their test of faith; which is critical, since faith is perhaps the most important thing that God wants out of them, second to begging for forgiveness.
That’s why the idea of religion and religious organizations is silly beyond belief.
There can be many interpretations of all texts, including both religious and scientific texts. Those multiple interpretations come from being different people with different backgrounds, experiences, and cultural upbringing - rather than convenience or zealotry by necessity.
Scientists read the same texts, and study the same subjects all the time and come to different conclusions and that’s seen as a positive - arguably because the only way to deeply understand anything is from multiple perspectives. Some of the most important scientific breakthroughs happen when alternatives to deeply established ideas emerge.
Religious folks believe a whole diversity of things, just like atheists and scientific folks do.
We don’t need to argue the legitimacy of atheism as a position by making science into something it’s not - namely an unbiased, entirely monolithic, entirely perfect way of understanding the world.
Religion is not silly, its sets of cultural practices and beliefs that a huge majority of the population finds meaningful in some way - and for that reason deserves some form of respect even by non religious folks. Religion isn’t the problem. Many forms of dominant religious practice, however, have shown to have real, human, social, and environmental harms. That’s the problem.
The biggest difference, however, is that you can test a scientific interpretation, repeat a study, etc. You can be proven wrong or validated as right.
But with religion, there are no checks and balances. You are quite literally able to make up whatever interpretation you like, and you’d be neither right nor wrong. This is a massive conflict of what (organized) religion is.
You see, it really doesn’t make any sense that the literal word of god would even need to be interpreted, since it should be clear as day for all to understand. At least, that’s what I’d expect out of an all powerful god. And if enough people are misinterpreting the text, well, Mr. Bossman needs to come down and sort that shit out, right?
Again, if God himself says “X is true”, there is absolutely no room for re-interpretation or a change in perspective. In science, it’s EXPECTED and WELCOMED that theories will evolve, be improved, be found to be wrong, be found to have more evidence in support of it, etc.
For example, if X religion states that gays are bad, then you’d either have to believe that as the word of god, or ignore it.
If you ignore it, then do you really have faith in that religion? Of course not.
But if you choose to follow that belief, even if it goes against what you know to be true, then it makes you look foolish.
As it turns out, not all the time. In fact, not even all that frequently. Popper criticized the idea of verification, Kuhn criticized the idea of falsification, and neither idea solves the demarcation (between science and non-science) problem. For a quick reference that won’t require a number of books, try this.
It doesn’t make sense to you based on what your ideas of legitimate knowledge are - and you’re making some major generalizations about how religion operates. For some religions there is a monotheistic deity, and for some of those religions the word of that deity is immutable law. But even in those cases, there is significant debate over what exactly constitutes the “word of God” - I mean, it’s why there’s so many different sects and factions (and even those argue internally). Just like in science, there are different interpretations of our observed world, and some interpretations become more dominant than others - and not always because they best align with our observations of the physical world.
No, it actually makes no sense that a relgion can simultaneously believe that the earth is 6000 years old AND that it’s billions of years old based on how they interpret canon.
I was raised Catholic, and still can’t believe the absolute absurdity that grownups are telling themselves with absolute convict that they know the true word of the lord. It’s as sad as it is hilarious.
No, the OP explains that, and it’s because these religions are all bullshit and based on bullshit. Of the hundreds of Christian denominations, which is right? One of them? All of them? Some of them? None of them?
If there is disagreement about things that should be crystal clear, who’s right? And who gives them the authority to “be right”? To them, only god knows the Truth, so any reinterpretation would be false by default.
Again, to you. That makes sense to the people who do believe that. It’s just simply that you have - literally - different ways of making sense.
The OP on this thread only says “That’s a 100% true observations. Most religions can’t even agree with themselves.” and I’m (being a giant pain in the ass and) responding specifically to your emphasis that it is this disagreement that invalidates religious thought. I still hold that there’s no issue with disagreement within or among religious groups, in terms of the validity of their worldviews.
Religions have come up with ways of determining who is “right” under various conditions of dispute, just as science and other fields (like law), have. I am by no means a Catholic scholar, but I am very much under the impression that the religious texts Christianity are based on require translation efforts, and that those translation efforts can lose meaning in translation, not just between languages but between historical contexts - like many other historical texts. As such, they require study and interpretation - something that even those most fervent and uneducated of followers seem to understand.
What evidence is there for the fundamental assertion within Christianity that the Christian god exists in the first place? What room is there for questioning that assertion? And don’t give me that “intelligent design” bullshit either. That argument has been debunked a thousand times already. ~Strawberry
None, as far as I’m aware! I’m not defending the religion.
In some factions, plenty. In others, not so much. I’ve met plenty of Christian folks that don’t believe in intelligent design, and it’s not like they’re immediately ejected from the church - and this appears to even be true among Catholic leadership. It’s a controversy.
I think you have the wrong idea about me, which is understandable, given how annoying I’m being.
Fair enough.
I think that’s the main problem people are pointing to. Not 100% sure though. ~Strawberry
Some religions also believe in evolving theology from our perspective. Even some Christian ones.
The biggest difference is that science is a religion that questions itself while every other religion explicitly don’t want you to question it.
Science actively seeks out being wrong because if you arrive at a point where no one can disagree with a conclusion, you may have arrived at the truth.
Plenty of religions self-question. And scientists are just as prone to getting stuck in their opinions and trying to suppress dissenters as any other human. Anyone with knowledge of scientific history should see that.