I’ll bite, though I’m pretty sure you’re not discussing in good faith. Globalisation and free trade are a good thing as long as everyone involved is doing it with good intentions. Meaning I’m good at something, so I sell it to you - I gain money, you gain a thing you didn’t have.
Now include actors with bad intentions - like a country subsidizing stuff so that companies can sell stuff at a permanent loss which means no one else can compete and the good actors become dependent on the bad actor - and it goes to shit.
The first scenario is great, free trade and globalisation are really great tools for exchange of goods and money. But it’s very bad when someone has different intentions than making money, like getting other countries dependent on them.
That’s how the same thing can be really great and really bad at the same time.
Sure, if you wanna do absolutes, you could probably calculate whether the bad effect of China fucking up the world by giving their companies an infinite money cheat code is worse than the benefits. And you’d arrive at some result. But most of us are content with recognising the good stuff it gives us and the bad stuff China is abusing it for.
Globalisation and free trade are a good thing as long as everyone involved is doing it with good intentions.
And as you’ve pointed out, not everyone involved is doing with good intentions, therefore it’s not a good thing.
Sure, if you wanna do absolutes, you could probably calculate whether the bad effect of China fucking up the world by giving their companies an infinite money cheat code is worse than the benefits. And you’d arrive at some result.
And clearly liberals have arrived at the conclusion that the bad effects outweigh the benefits, since they are abandoning their previous commitment to open borders and free trade, and moving more toward protectionist policies and reshoring industries.
That’s not my conclusion, no. It’s a good thing, it just needs to be adjusted to weed out the bad parts it wasn’t prepared to handle. But yeah, free trade as implemented currently is not good anymore. Doesn’t mean it’s gonna disappear, it will just evolve.
You could argue that what the US did when they were all for free trade was bad. Using debt traps to impoverish third world countries. Imposing policies that were and are detrimental on weaker nations.
Now that China is doing the same with belt and road it is suddenly evil. The only thing that has changed is who is benefiting.
I’m not sure why you only speak about China as being ‘bad’. I mean China didn’t start the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq and still hasn’t contributed as much CO2 as the US and EU combined (source).
Like it or not, the real world doesn’t operate on zero sum game rules.
It is possible to have answers other than black or white.
That doesn’t make any sense. Certainly they thought free trade and globalization would be a net positive for someone. Otherwise, why do it?
I’ll bite, though I’m pretty sure you’re not discussing in good faith. Globalisation and free trade are a good thing as long as everyone involved is doing it with good intentions. Meaning I’m good at something, so I sell it to you - I gain money, you gain a thing you didn’t have.
Now include actors with bad intentions - like a country subsidizing stuff so that companies can sell stuff at a permanent loss which means no one else can compete and the good actors become dependent on the bad actor - and it goes to shit.
The first scenario is great, free trade and globalisation are really great tools for exchange of goods and money. But it’s very bad when someone has different intentions than making money, like getting other countries dependent on them.
That’s how the same thing can be really great and really bad at the same time.
Sure, if you wanna do absolutes, you could probably calculate whether the bad effect of China fucking up the world by giving their companies an infinite money cheat code is worse than the benefits. And you’d arrive at some result. But most of us are content with recognising the good stuff it gives us and the bad stuff China is abusing it for.
And as you’ve pointed out, not everyone involved is doing with good intentions, therefore it’s not a good thing.
And clearly liberals have arrived at the conclusion that the bad effects outweigh the benefits, since they are abandoning their previous commitment to open borders and free trade, and moving more toward protectionist policies and reshoring industries.
That’s not my conclusion, no. It’s a good thing, it just needs to be adjusted to weed out the bad parts it wasn’t prepared to handle. But yeah, free trade as implemented currently is not good anymore. Doesn’t mean it’s gonna disappear, it will just evolve.
But free trade only among the “good” countries is not global free trade. So the idea of global free trade has already disappeared.
Yep, I can agree with that.
You could argue that what the US did when they were all for free trade was bad. Using debt traps to impoverish third world countries. Imposing policies that were and are detrimental on weaker nations. Now that China is doing the same with belt and road it is suddenly evil. The only thing that has changed is who is benefiting.
I’m not sure why you only speak about China as being ‘bad’. I mean China didn’t start the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq and still hasn’t contributed as much CO2 as the US and EU combined (source).
Because we were talking about free trade and globalisation. Your whataboutism is not welcome here.