*your

Thanks!

The fact that we are talking about this and not about climate change is also partly your decision. You are free at any point to disengage this thread and focus your energy on more productive things. The fact that you’re not doing this is just one example of humans being humans and not always doing the best of all things. Me still arguing with you is of course another example.

No one in this thread or any other Lemmy thread about this situation is talking about climate change. Everyone is talking about paint on rocks.

I can repeat this as often as you want: people want to engage in different kinds of activities under different names because the actions do not relate and the messaging becomes confusing. I can both disturb the operation of a pipeline and try to mobilize locals to support the building of a solar power plant. Doing both under the same name makes everything more complicated even if there is personal overlap. I really don’t get why you are so hung up on this.

Because if you’re not embarassed or ashamed of the pipeline disturbance/damage, then you shouldn’t have a problem openly associating yourself with it. The fact that you’re trying to hard to suggest it’s prudent to distance oneself from a disruption/protest tells me that deep down you understand these things are perceived negatively and are therefore more likely to cause friction and disagreement than sympathy for a cause.

I don’t exactly get the question here. I’m not saying any of those options is particularly confusing. I’m saying doing both under the same name might get confusing for people not intimately familiar with your group and their actions.

And painting a rock is confusing to people who don’t understand what the paint or the rock have to do with climate change. Yet you’re her cheering for rock painting. Why are you worried about confusing the public in one instance but not worried about confusing the public in the other instance?

The hypothetical that you are posing instead of what I’m actually arguing for. You then argue against that hypothetical instead of my actual points. That’s a classic example of a strawman.

No, it’s a hypothetical that’s followed by a question mark. It’s also called a “thought exercise”. Nowhere did I attribute the argument to you in order to debunk it. You need to read the definition of strawman fallacy more carefully.

Yes I’m advocating for bothering people in public. Where else would you bother people?

You would bother people who aren’t already on your team and in a way that leads to a productive conversation, rather than in a way that’s completely detached from the cause and in a way that completely distracts from the issue.

That’s a choice the public is making. And again I think this is fine.

Also known as a shittily designed protest. If you set out to accomplish a goal and the public responds predictably in a way that doesn’t help you achieve that goal, you should probably reflect on the fact that your methods were shit.

That’s also fine. It’s not like there aren’t any publicly available sources on how to fight climate change. If the people are interested they can go talk to the many many local groups that engage in productive activities.

Ah, so now it’s enough to acknowledge that public resources exist and people can find it if they want? Because seconds ago you were cheering for people to paint rocks in a public place to keep people from talking about anything else. Seems you’re not quite sure what you believe or how you think it should be accomplished. So what is it? Should it be shoved into people’s faces so they can’t ignore it? Or should they be left to find their own resources?

This thread is a prime example of people like you who could be allies here and engage people who aren’t yet convinced that we need to take action, that instead take up a lot of time and energy to argue about the kind of protest.

I am an ally. That’s what you don’t understand and refuse to entertain as a possibility. I’m an environmental advocate both personally and professionally, and I’ve been working on climate change and environmental issues for over a decade. And even I’m telling you that painting a rock is stupid and counterproductive. The only people who give a shit and empathize with it are people who were already on your team.

Nope, it only shows “Joined” and “Create a Post” below “deleted by creator”.

I don’t see an option to un-delete it. Where should I be looking?

I didn’t say it wasn’t.

So I take it you’re taking a different course of action to bring awareness to the dire situation we are in? Or are you just posting here tarnishing Blackbeard’s name with some boot licking?

Broseph, I’ve spent more time in the past 6 months advocating for this cause in a personal and professional capacity than you and your entire family have devoted to environmentalism in the past two decades. But keep going with the petulant, baseless namecalling, child.

All these historic pieces will be destroyed by the climate, and the ones that aren’t will be rendered moot as no humans are around to appreciate them. Its a message and you don’t grasp it. Thats okay. But you should really stop punching down and laterally.

I’d link you my graduate thesis on climate change and emissions regulation to convince you to stick your righteous indignation where the sun don’t shine, but…you know…doxxing and all that. Keep showing your ignorance and people will keep pointing it out to you.

Wanna bet?

This is for the deniers

“Climate change is a liberal hoax! They just want to tax us to death! Look at all the research they fabricated in Climategate!”

sees people spray orange paint on a rock

“Wait a second. I think I was looking at this all wrong!”

Amen. Plus some of us do prioritize it. We’ve minimized our carbon footprint, we’ve dedicated careers to environmental awareness and protection, and we spend countless hours in our own lives to communicate the reality of the situation to others, but we resent the fact that these protestors push people away from the rest of our messaging by making us look like a group of unhinged, attention-seeking morons.

You and me are arguing a non-provable hypothetical. Yes time they spend in jail is time they aren’t doing anything productive. That doesn’t mean they don’t do anything productive in their time they do not spend in jail. Also: The repressions they face as a consequence of their activism is part of the activism in my book.

Yes. We’re arguing in circles because the protestors are the story, climate change isn’t.

I’ll argue that without that stunt we’d be talking about something different entirely likely unrelated to the climate crisis. Which would be even less helpful.

I’d argue that we’re still not arguing about the climate crisis. Not a single person in this thread has said a single word about climate change or how to solve it. Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

As I have explained already: it’s about communicating to the public. Doing things under a certain name helps the public associate the current actions with past actions under the same name. If you do two vastly different things it helps to separate those by name too, otherwise it can get confusing for people that are not interacting with your group often enough.

Why do you not want these actions associated with the other group?

Furthermore, you don’t think painting a fucking rock is confusing to the people who want to discuss climate change, but having one interest group perform varying kinds of direct activism and grassroots organizing is confusing to the people who want to discuss climate change?

That’s quite the strawman you’ve put up here.

It’s a hypothetical, not a strawman, which should have been obvious when the sentence began with “if”.

I’m not advocating for bothering random people at their home and that’s not what JSO is doing. As far as I can tell they are targeting people of public interest, big events, and popular public places. Which is the “right” people because the climate crisis is about all of us. We all are contributing to it be it daily choices or our choices while casting our democratic votes.

You’re advocating for bothering random people at a tourist attraction, and you’re doing it in a way that a) distracts from talking about actual climate change, b) leaves them virtually NO information about how to address climate change, and c) is potentially affecting people who already do what they can to address climate change. See how this entire thread has been about painting rocks, instead of daily choices we make that contribute to or affect climate change???

No one is saying they did or acting like they did. What we’re actually saying is that the methods were fucking ridiculous and counterproductive.

Gods I hope so. The amount of damage he did convincing people that vaccines cause autism is incalculable. Especially to people on the spectrum.

All I see are things that will cost them money. Spraying paint somewhere wouldn’t result in a lot of jailtime. If that’s the case in the UK well that’s weird.

And time. You know, because time spent with other organizations is what we’re talking about here? It takes time to fight a criminal charge. Besides, we’re now nitpicking about how much time they’ll spend in jail, rather than you proving with any evidence that they’re doing anything more constructive than performative stunts. Rather than show actual good they’re doing, you’ve just supposed that they might be doing it, and challenged that I can’t prove that they don’t. I hope you see how ridiculous this is.

Every second we spend on this stupid conversation is a second that proves the effect of the protest is to make the stunt the subject of the conversation, rather than the climate.

So no you didn’t show that. And even if I want to thank you for your engagement, that doesn’t give you the right to tell everyone else how they are supposed to engage themselves. You are entitled to your opinion but that isn’t a definitive fact.

I just pointed you to their website. The proof is in the pudding, and I’m not going to try to prove a negative.

It’s not a front. It’s just possible to engage in different forms of activism and if those differ in style it makes sense to separate them into multiple organisations.

If the protest accomplishes their goals, then why separate them? Why have a separate organization at all? What’s the point of that?

There is a common misconception that activism needs to please people to be valid or effective. I think we just differ in opinion on this. Which is fine but we don’t need to waste time on arguing about this as it seems we are both pretty convinced of our respective stance on this.

No, activism doesn’t need to please people, it needs to be targeted to inconvenience the right people.

If I show up at your home first thing in the morning and pour colored powder on the car you use to get to work, and I tell you “I’m helping spread the word about starvation in Africa”, you’re going to wash the powder off and then yell at me for being a fucking idiot and taking it out on you. You’re not going to stop what you’re doing and send a donation to feed children in Africa because I vandalized your car.

I won’t speculate on how much energy they are able to put into other efforts because I don’t have any actual experience with the judicial system. A few days behind bars are not enough to stop one from participating though.

If “a few days” is all you think we’re talking about, you need to read the news releases on their website more closely…

Now imagine this was a group that also engages in constructive participation.

They don’t. I just showed that they don’t, and that’s coming from someone who does constructive environmental engagement both at the grassroots and governmental level. My wife and I have dedicated our entire lives to environmental protection, and what these dipshits are doing is not constructive and makes the rest of us look like morons.

Suddenly the messaging of that group would be very messy, full of misunderstandings. Instead of this they do activism that will not be favourable in the public opinion under that specific organisation where it won’t hurt the constructive efforts.

They’re using a front group because they know it will run afoul of public opinion and won’t be constructive??? Do you hear yourself right now? I’m telling you that you’re making a very convincing argument about why these tactics are such a waste of oxygen. They “stop us from talking about anything else” and “hurt the constructive efforts” because they’re unpopular. They’re accomplishing nothing except pissing people off and attracting attention away from more constructive endeavors. Surely you see that you’re supporting my argument.

The number of people described in those news articles that have been arrested, imprisoned, or spent months in court fighting charges, tells me they’re spending more time in the judicial system than participating with other civic groups. The two protestors who painted Stonehenge are currently behind bars, so I’d say that cuts into their grassroots organizing time, wouldn’t you?

It also makes sense to not lump these efforts under one name so that the public messaging doesn’t get muddied.

The public messaging is that people painted Stonehenge. I’d say the clarity of their messaging is exactly the topic currently up for debate.

If a dog urinates into a river which then floods, would you say the dog’s urination caused the flood?

My wife works in environmental advocacy, and I can tell you without a shred of doubt that people’s opinions are changing on climate change for a lot of different reasons. This ridiculous nonsense isn’t one of them.

Their website. It’s a string of performative, attention-seeking destruction, peppered with the rare “letter to party leaders” or “disrupted” public event.

It’s clear as day.

I’d say spraying colored powder on archeological sites and art galleries instead of getting involved in civic action to enact societal and economic change counts as lazy, yes.

I’m not sure I follow. You’re suggesting that >0 people take meaningful action as a result of hearing about this protest. I’m saying that >0 people take fewer meaningful actions as a result, and >0 probably turn away from your cause when they hear about stupid shit like this. So for every one convert in the right direction, there are some in the other direction. Whether or not the two balance is certainly up for debate, and which side you prefer to highlight at the expense of the other, depends on your preconceived opinion.

Which really just reiterates that this kind of nonsense is a net negative, because the people who respond positively to it were already converts in the first place.