Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them,
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I’m confused about why playing on your desk is “not fun”, but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I’ve also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it’s just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn’t need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it’s barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn’t require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I’m drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to… you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn’t play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they’re not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small
Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦
You didn’t mention any games. What games are those.
Do I point the mouse without clicking in Monster Train or Slay the Spire? Yes. But also, those games have touch and controller support, so I can do the same in other ways. What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn’t have any other way to do the same? That’s not rhetorical, I’m drawing a blank here.
Where do you need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that? What game has controller support but also requires a pointer? I mean, Abuse, but that was in 1996, so maybe not that? Most games that use mouse aiming when playing on a keyboard map that to the right stick, off the top of my head.
Surely there’s a list of games you played this way with a Steam Controller or on Deck touchpads that wouldn’t play well elsewhere. They must have names. Right?
What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn’t have any other way to do the same?
Umm… literally any RTS or management game… left click… right click… dragging entities around… multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen… Good luck with the right stick for that, I’m sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right? 🙄 Lmao.
Where do ou need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that?
Umm… literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls…
RTSs are unplayable on touchpads. I thought we agreed that touchpads aren’t a good mouse replacement for anything requiring precision. Who is out there doing micro on Starcraft 2 on a Steam Controller?
And no, absolutely not true that side scrollers with aim controls need a touchpad. Bloodstained? Maps it to the right stick. Prince of Persia? Right stick. The entire Trine series? Right stick.
I hate when platformers require analogue inputs in the first place, because come on, you want to use a d-pad. But even then I can’t think of a single example (since Abuse) that requires you to move and do analogue aim but won’t support an analogue stick for that. The common name of top down games with free aim these days is “twin stick shooters”, even. Nex Machina? Right stick. Minishoot? Right stick. Oooh, Knight Witch. Underrated. Right stick.
Rimworld, which I haven’t played much, IS definitely a mouse and keyboard game. Same issue as with RTSs, though. I would absolutely not try to play that with a controller. Or a touchpad of any kind. Hell, the screen size would be a dealbreaker there.
We’re looking for a bit of a unicorn here. It needs to be so coarse and slow that you can comfortably use a dual touchpad setup, but too cumbersome for a single touchpad or a touchscreen. Or somehow not supporting controllers but only for right stick aiming. Which Steam Input can simulate with a stick anyway.
Look, I’m not saying you can’t prefer to play that way. You’re in a very slim minority but you can absolutely be that guy.
I am saying that your choice is not anywhere near the only choice or the best choice. And for the places where playing with a mouse cursor is a must there is simply no good choice on a controller, with or without touchpads.
I mean that’s basically like saying “Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???” lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads due to their quality and advanced haptics, and these games are 100% playable on Deck and TV because of them…
And further, in the same messages you accept “using a single touchpad”, so like… you agree with me… great. And to satisfy your “dual touchpad” requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much any other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn’t totally suck when it is a radial menu. The virtual menu use is pretty much the only reason I use the left touchpad, and yet its so useful for making these types of games playable that it justifies its place on the Steam Deck.
Your argument, once again, amounts to: “Stop having fun!!”
I have no idea where you saw me saying anything about “using a single touchpad” where I was agreeing with you. I said I wouldn’t play those games on any touchpad, single or dual, haptic or not.
You also underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups. Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad. Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that’s about it. Let’s not get crazy with our much real state you have on that thing, especially if you’re trying to do anything time-sensitive.
And no, the argument isn’t “stop having fun”, the argument is “don’t force games that aren’t fun on a controller to be on a controller”. I can’t imagine having fun with a fast mouse-driven game on the tiny touchpad on the Deck, or even in the larger one on the Steam Controller. Or on a huge Macbook touchpad or on ANY touchpad. They don’t need to be coaxed to work poorly on a mediocre replacement when they work great on the native control setup they’re designed for. A few cases overlap enough to make things work well enough, but then the lack of an overengineered dual touchpad setup is not the limiting factor because there are so many alternatives in modern devices, from motion controls to touchscreens and paddles.
The touchpads were always a solution looking for a problem, even when controllers were a lot simpler. Now they’re a sub-par solution looking for a problem.
Out of curiosity, what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller? Because I’ve tried that (it was 2015, I had just gotten a Steam Controller and didn’t know any better) and it’s one of the least pleasant gaming experiences I can imagine. Did you really do that on purpose or is this a hypothetical?
Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups.
Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can’t rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.
Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad.
I agree 100%
Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that’s about it
You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao
what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller?
Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch
“don’t force games that aren’t fun on a controller to be on a controller”
except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn’t some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features
I mean, “MANY” in relation to, say, how many people would show up to someone’s birthday party. Not “MANY” as in “the size of a videogame audience”. We kinda know that for a fact. For reference, Steam does show the most played games on Deck. The first game with no official controller support shows up at 79. It’s The Sims 4. For what it’s worth, the two most used Steam Input configs do use the trackpads, but they just map the right one as a mouse and have the left one mapped to four directional functions. If your argument for the dual trackpads was simplicity, let me tell you, both of these configs are complete spaghetti, so I don’t think that holds much water.
Rimworld is in there, suprisingly, in the 80s. Made me count all the way there, they should really put numbers on that list. Those seem to be the sole two mouse-driven entries. There are no RTS games, tycoon games or city builders that I can see.
In any case, you’re right that we agree on whether playing strategy games on a touchpad is fun. It really is not.
By the way, you do realize your counter to the radial menu thing was a screenshot of a radial menu, right? The fact that it’s using squares doesn’t change how that works (except for how a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu, but that’s neither here nor there).
Alright, so more homework:
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I’m confused about why playing on your desk is “not fun”, but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I’ve also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it’s just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn’t need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it’s barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn’t require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I’m drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to… you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn’t play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they’re not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦
Lmaoo yep, that’s what I thought.
You didn’t mention any games. What games are those.
Do I point the mouse without clicking in Monster Train or Slay the Spire? Yes. But also, those games have touch and controller support, so I can do the same in other ways. What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn’t have any other way to do the same? That’s not rhetorical, I’m drawing a blank here.
Where do you need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that? What game has controller support but also requires a pointer? I mean, Abuse, but that was in 1996, so maybe not that? Most games that use mouse aiming when playing on a keyboard map that to the right stick, off the top of my head.
Surely there’s a list of games you played this way with a Steam Controller or on Deck touchpads that wouldn’t play well elsewhere. They must have names. Right?
Umm… literally any RTS or management game… left click… right click… dragging entities around… multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen… Good luck with the right stick for that, I’m sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right? 🙄 Lmao.
Umm… literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls…
You wanted the name of a game, sure: Rimworld.
RTSs are unplayable on touchpads. I thought we agreed that touchpads aren’t a good mouse replacement for anything requiring precision. Who is out there doing micro on Starcraft 2 on a Steam Controller?
And no, absolutely not true that side scrollers with aim controls need a touchpad. Bloodstained? Maps it to the right stick. Prince of Persia? Right stick. The entire Trine series? Right stick.
I hate when platformers require analogue inputs in the first place, because come on, you want to use a d-pad. But even then I can’t think of a single example (since Abuse) that requires you to move and do analogue aim but won’t support an analogue stick for that. The common name of top down games with free aim these days is “twin stick shooters”, even. Nex Machina? Right stick. Minishoot? Right stick. Oooh, Knight Witch. Underrated. Right stick.
Rimworld, which I haven’t played much, IS definitely a mouse and keyboard game. Same issue as with RTSs, though. I would absolutely not try to play that with a controller. Or a touchpad of any kind. Hell, the screen size would be a dealbreaker there.
We’re looking for a bit of a unicorn here. It needs to be so coarse and slow that you can comfortably use a dual touchpad setup, but too cumbersome for a single touchpad or a touchscreen. Or somehow not supporting controllers but only for right stick aiming. Which Steam Input can simulate with a stick anyway.
Look, I’m not saying you can’t prefer to play that way. You’re in a very slim minority but you can absolutely be that guy.
I am saying that your choice is not anywhere near the only choice or the best choice. And for the places where playing with a mouse cursor is a must there is simply no good choice on a controller, with or without touchpads.
I mean that’s basically like saying “Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???” lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads due to their quality and advanced haptics, and these games are 100% playable on Deck and TV because of them…
And further, in the same messages you accept “using a single touchpad”, so like… you agree with me… great. And to satisfy your “dual touchpad” requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much any other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn’t totally suck when it is a radial menu. The virtual menu use is pretty much the only reason I use the left touchpad, and yet its so useful for making these types of games playable that it justifies its place on the Steam Deck.
Your argument, once again, amounts to: “Stop having fun!!”
I have no idea where you saw me saying anything about “using a single touchpad” where I was agreeing with you. I said I wouldn’t play those games on any touchpad, single or dual, haptic or not.
You also underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups. Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad. Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that’s about it. Let’s not get crazy with our much real state you have on that thing, especially if you’re trying to do anything time-sensitive.
And no, the argument isn’t “stop having fun”, the argument is “don’t force games that aren’t fun on a controller to be on a controller”. I can’t imagine having fun with a fast mouse-driven game on the tiny touchpad on the Deck, or even in the larger one on the Steam Controller. Or on a huge Macbook touchpad or on ANY touchpad. They don’t need to be coaxed to work poorly on a mediocre replacement when they work great on the native control setup they’re designed for. A few cases overlap enough to make things work well enough, but then the lack of an overengineered dual touchpad setup is not the limiting factor because there are so many alternatives in modern devices, from motion controls to touchscreens and paddles.
The touchpads were always a solution looking for a problem, even when controllers were a lot simpler. Now they’re a sub-par solution looking for a problem.
Out of curiosity, what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller? Because I’ve tried that (it was 2015, I had just gotten a Steam Controller and didn’t know any better) and it’s one of the least pleasant gaming experiences I can imagine. Did you really do that on purpose or is this a hypothetical?
Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can’t rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.
I agree 100%
You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao
Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch
except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn’t some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features
I mean, “MANY” in relation to, say, how many people would show up to someone’s birthday party. Not “MANY” as in “the size of a videogame audience”. We kinda know that for a fact. For reference, Steam does show the most played games on Deck. The first game with no official controller support shows up at 79. It’s The Sims 4. For what it’s worth, the two most used Steam Input configs do use the trackpads, but they just map the right one as a mouse and have the left one mapped to four directional functions. If your argument for the dual trackpads was simplicity, let me tell you, both of these configs are complete spaghetti, so I don’t think that holds much water.
Rimworld is in there, suprisingly, in the 80s. Made me count all the way there, they should really put numbers on that list. Those seem to be the sole two mouse-driven entries. There are no RTS games, tycoon games or city builders that I can see.
In any case, you’re right that we agree on whether playing strategy games on a touchpad is fun. It really is not.
By the way, you do realize your counter to the radial menu thing was a screenshot of a radial menu, right? The fact that it’s using squares doesn’t change how that works (except for how a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu, but that’s neither here nor there).