I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
Id rather they be tried and convicted like we did to the Nazis at the Nuremeberg trials, but I’ll settle for them leaving, sure. Why must the Palestinians accept their presence when their entire presence was on the mass displacement and genocide of their people? They’re not even sorry for any of it, they’re literally doubling down on it all and continuing it on a scale never seen before.
Why are you so shocked that militia groups were formed to counter an oppressive genocidal colony? Also, keep in mind Israel literally helped prop Hamas up to delegtimize the Palestinians in the eyes of the international community. It just came back to bite them in the ass.
The population of Israel is almost 10 million people. Much like Trump’s plan to deport around that many brown people, it’s only doable with concentration camps.
Maybe the solution to genocide isn’t more genocide.
I’ve always thought a disarmed single state solution with a protected right of return to the country (not the specific land parcel) would be a hilarious end to Israel. Let actual democracy destroy the apartheid state.
Majority of Israel support what their government is doing in Gaza. This won’t end just because a foreign power decides to enforce a ceasefire and maybe some kind of simple recognition of Palestinian statehood. There’s way too much bad blood, and most of it is on Israel’s hands. If this happens we’ll have a middle eastern version of North and South Korea. And given how the US backs Israel unconditionally, it’s only a matter of time before they re-attempt their settlement of all of Palestine. Because who’s going to stop them?
Have you read any of the works of Ilan Pappe or Avi Schlaim on a One-State Solution? If not I think you’d benefit from their findings and perspectives.
While Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism, I don’t consider it fundamental to Israelis. A One-State Solution where Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights is possible if not inevitable considering the settlements in the West Bank.
I do agree that unconditional US support of Israel and Zionism is the main problem preventing any semblance of peace. A Regime Change is necessary.
No, but I did explain why a major shift in Israel’s dynamic is required for any kind of meaningful peace. Just like countires like Canada or America did with its First Nations population as means of mending relations given how many horrific things hey did. I never said anything about genocide, all I said that a lot of land should be given back and if people don’t like to live in a Palestinian state then they should leave. Nowhere did I say anything about any kind of concentration camps or anything of the sort.
A bullshit empty platitude of a two-state solution made by the leader of a nation on the other side of the world that is clearly meant to appease both sides of a conflict while wholeheartedly arming and supporting one is not a a solution at all.
Okay, so where should they go? If Israel is dissolved and the territory handed back to the Palestinian people, there will be a massive ethnic cleansing at the hands of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Extracting every single Israeli would create yet another refugee crisis somewhere in the world - speaking strictly in terms of how to materially support all these people.
That will require an agreement with the host nations. That is not guaranteed by any means, nor is their safety before, during, or after the evacuation.
I’d honestly prefer that they stop indiscriminately bombing schools and hospitals full of displaced Palestinians. Failing that, the moon sounds like a right fine spot to put them.
Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction
that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Because they’ll stop being filthy colonizers.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
It is.
So, should they all just leave or die? Or will handing over a tiny sliver of land magically appease Hezbollah, which insists that Israel must be destroyed, Hamas, which was founded with the goal of destroying Israel,, and Iran, which wants to completely erase Israel?
Id rather they be tried and convicted like we did to the Nazis at the Nuremeberg trials, but I’ll settle for them leaving, sure. Why must the Palestinians accept their presence when their entire presence was on the mass displacement and genocide of their people? They’re not even sorry for any of it, they’re literally doubling down on it all and continuing it on a scale never seen before.
Why are you so shocked that militia groups were formed to counter an oppressive genocidal colony? Also, keep in mind Israel literally helped prop Hamas up to delegtimize the Palestinians in the eyes of the international community. It just came back to bite them in the ass.
The population of Israel is almost 10 million people. Much like Trump’s plan to deport around that many brown people, it’s only doable with concentration camps.
Maybe the solution to genocide isn’t more genocide.
I’ve always thought a disarmed single state solution with a protected right of return to the country (not the specific land parcel) would be a hilarious end to Israel. Let actual democracy destroy the apartheid state.
I would be fine with that too.
Majority of Israel support what their government is doing in Gaza. This won’t end just because a foreign power decides to enforce a ceasefire and maybe some kind of simple recognition of Palestinian statehood. There’s way too much bad blood, and most of it is on Israel’s hands. If this happens we’ll have a middle eastern version of North and South Korea. And given how the US backs Israel unconditionally, it’s only a matter of time before they re-attempt their settlement of all of Palestine. Because who’s going to stop them?
Have you read any of the works of Ilan Pappe or Avi Schlaim on a One-State Solution? If not I think you’d benefit from their findings and perspectives.
While Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism, I don’t consider it fundamental to Israelis. A One-State Solution where Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights is possible if not inevitable considering the settlements in the West Bank.
I do agree that unconditional US support of Israel and Zionism is the main problem preventing any semblance of peace. A Regime Change is necessary.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
I have not, no. I’ll save your comment and see if I can get to reading it sometime in the future. Thank you for the suggestions.
You didn’t address a thing that I just said.
No, but I did explain why a major shift in Israel’s dynamic is required for any kind of meaningful peace. Just like countires like Canada or America did with its First Nations population as means of mending relations given how many horrific things hey did. I never said anything about genocide, all I said that a lot of land should be given back and if people don’t like to live in a Palestinian state then they should leave. Nowhere did I say anything about any kind of concentration camps or anything of the sort.
A bullshit empty platitude of a two-state solution made by the leader of a nation on the other side of the world that is clearly meant to appease both sides of a conflict while wholeheartedly arming and supporting one is not a a solution at all.
Okay, so where should they go? If Israel is dissolved and the territory handed back to the Palestinian people, there will be a massive ethnic cleansing at the hands of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Extracting every single Israeli would create yet another refugee crisis somewhere in the world - speaking strictly in terms of how to materially support all these people.
Wherever they want. Why is it on Palestine, Lebanon, or anyone else to figure out this problem that Israel created in the first place?
That will require an agreement with the host nations. That is not guaranteed by any means, nor is their safety before, during, or after the evacuation.
Why are you so sure, have they tried before?
That the lame excuse that was also used to justify maintaining the apartheid in south africa
You’re right, which is why we should stop these three genocidal terrorist regimes from clearing out Israel.
I hear that the moon has good weather this time of year.
So you do want to kill every Israeli. Thanks for your honesty.
I’d honestly prefer that they stop indiscriminately bombing schools and hospitals full of displaced Palestinians. Failing that, the moon sounds like a right fine spot to put them.
Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
Apartheid Evidence
Amnesty Report
Human Rights Watch Report
B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)