Feminists treat men badly. It’s bad for feminism.
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The fixation on men behaving badly distracts from more fundamental issues.

This is an excellent article by Cathy Young, exposing some of the widespread misandry within feminism.

I don’t agree with every point she makes. I think the 1848 demonizing of men is way more serious and shouldn’t be so easily dismissed. But that doesn’t take away from her main point: feminism is full of misandry, and if they want to be taken seriously by men, they need to address that.

  • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
    2·
    11 months ago

    Except feminism is not biased against men as individuals, it does not even deal with individuals rather it addresses systemic problems.

      • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
        2·
        11 months ago

        The effects of feminism are clearly biased against men.

        Not sure what you mean? They are “biased” in the sense that the societal structures favored men and feminism challenged that. But that is also the whole point.

          • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
            2·
            11 months ago

            I think you would have to convince me that “societal structures” do in fact favor men. I don’t think they do.

            You would kind of have first to look at societal structures when feminism came up. Those obviously changed dramatically (at least in the west) but so did feminism.

            my son has been turned away from several classes and trips.

            Sounds wild to me, living in Germany.

            Men get higher prison sentences than women for the same crimes.

            How exactly is feminism responsible for that?

            Women get preferential placement and additional resources in education and employment if it is believed that women are under represented,

            Which is bad because?

            Men are under represented in higher education enrollment

            Due to systematic discrimination or because they chose other opportunities?

            Men pay more in taxes

            Why do men pay more taxes, is it an US thing - definitely not the case in Germany for example.

            and receive fewer benefits from government services than women.

            Again how would this be related to feminism. Are feminist running USA? Trump? Joe Biden? For real?!

            Men in the US have to sign up for selective service, women do not. As a man I would not feel safe calling the police if I was attacked by a woman, the police are more likely to arrest/assault me than my assailant.

            You literally describe how patriarchy is negatively affecting men. Which is also criticized by feminism. Maybe you need to read a bit.

              • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
                1·
                11 months ago

                Why punish me and my son for a situation I had no benefit from?

                Again I don’t see how you, or your son are being punished by feminism. My point was also more about that feminism has a history of addressing societal power structures though the lens of gender. Obviously it will have some outdated elements, but it is being constantly evolved to address more modern problems women - and if you go into more modern version marginalized groups in general experience.

                f anything, contemporary feminism is doubling down on demonizing men and insisting on yet more special benefits for women.

                Would be curious to read up how intersectional feminism is demonizing men.

                Feminists are still actively fighting for lower penalties for women while ignoring the plight of incarcerated men. Scotland is trying to get rid of women’s prisons entirely. Women get sympathy, men get the stick.

                How are lower penalties for women related to feminism, that does not make any sense. Isn’t it more the tradtional societal view of men being the violent and aggressive ones that is responsible for men getting an unfair treatment when it comes to sentencing?

                You don’t know what the reason is, and no one much cares. When men outnumbered women, changes were made. Now that women outnumber men, you stopped caring. Ta da, feminism!

                But the reason would be the whole point. Is there a systemic disadvantage, then the state needs to intervene - no need to intervene in personal choice. Women choosing to be a stay at home mom, no need to intervene. Women having to stay at home because they have no other realistic choices. That’s bad.

                they earn more because of social expectations

                So there is a pay gap, you might say - pretty sure feminism is addressing that issue.

                I think it highlights the fact that more is expected from men

                But again feminism also deals with expectation put by society on men. For a personal example: I was raised by a rather feminist mother - and I don’t really feel any societal pressure on me as a man. Because that’s not what I tie my value as human being to.

                Male suicide and homelessness is are major current issues,

                That is an issue, but again - how is feminism at fault? This is more tied into USA being very neo liberal and having very little social market economy elements, which can greatly reduce the pressure on an individual.

                can you stop for a moment and ask if feminism did anything to oppose it?

                Sure, feminism is challenging the whole structure that is responsible for the most problems you describe. You talk about the pressure of societal pressure men feel - where does it come from. From feminist world view or from the conservative world view. Does feminism expect men to be the sole earner for a family?

                Patriarchy is a theory that can’t be tested, nor can it make any useful predictions. It’s an idea that men rule for the benefit of men, but that’s clearly not happening. I think oligarchy or plutocracy are closer to what you see, but it’s just easier to blame men.

                Patriarchy is not a theory it an observation of power structures. You can doubt of how much of it is left in modern times, but come on: women could not vote, work, study or be practically an independent adult for quite the long time in history and still can’t in some parts of the world. It’s silly to claim that there was never a power dis balance between men an women.

                  • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
                    1·
                    11 months ago

                    How about by the Duluth Model teaching cops to always arrest the male, leading to far more and far more harmful systemic sexist discrimination?

                    Is it based on feminist theory or rather in the conservative view of the male as aggressive and violent?

                    Are they allowed to feel affected by that, oh arbiter of what people are and aren’t being affected by?

                    I did not apply for that position, not sure why you are asking me. People are allowed to feel how ever they feel like. Oh wait, not in conservative society.

                    How about males being specifically ignored in sexual assault data collection, leading to 7 out of every 10 adult US men having been strapped down and mutilated as children having to listen to people whine about the “sexual assault epidemic” and how 1 in 4 women are “victims”?

                    Again, how is this feminist fault? Once again the classical archetype of a man being aggressive and violent seems to be the problem here. Like the other guy, you are blaming feminism for issues that clearly root in patriarchal view in men.

                    How about having a gun thrown in their hands while feminists have and continue to exempt themselves and other women from the draft, at every opportunity, including last year?

                    Now feminist invented the draft?

                    You could try going outside and seeing the billboards saying “1 in 4 homeless are women, donate to a women’s specific homeless shelter today to stop this epidemic!” like i have to?

                    How is this demonizing men?

                    tbh, i can keep going, but at this point you’re clearly delusional in your defense of feminism, and i should know because i have this same “my cult is never wrong” discussion with religious people, and they use the same arguments and tactics to protect their worldview from being challenged.

                    Sure much easier just to say your opponent is delusional and ride into the sunset. Why answering me in the first place if you think that a conversation with me has no merit?

                    a sexist one that blames all men for the actions of a few

                    Except it does not.

                    and ignores any and all women perpetuating those actions,

                    It explicitly does not.

                    Have you ever read anything by feminist outside some crazy people on the internet. Like Simone de Beauvoir or something? You seem to have a completely wrong understanding.

    • a-man-from-earth@kbin.socialOP
      10·
      11 months ago

      feminism is not biased against men as individuals

      Oh great! It’s just biased against us as a gender.

      You know, that’s still sexism.

      • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
        1·
        11 months ago

        It’s biased against a power system where one gender holds most power. If you feel like you are target by that - maybe it’s not because you are a man.

        • a-man-from-earth@kbin.socialOP
          9·
          11 months ago

          Feminism habitually demonizes men, not the powerful. Their boogeyman is called after fathers, not the few people who actually rule and have power. They call masculinity (the characteristics of a gender) toxic. It is misandrist to the core.

          • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
            1·
            11 months ago

            How is feminism demonizes men? Curios, since I’m a men and never felt demonized by feminism.

            They call masculinity (the characteristics of a gender) toxic

            Dude, they don’t call masculinity toxic - they say that masculinity has toxic elements. How can you not get such a simple distinction?

            is misandrist to the core.

            It’s not.

            • a-man-from-earth@kbin.socialOP
              8·
              11 months ago

              How can you not see the evidence that is staring you in the face?

              Curios, since I’m a men and never felt demonized by feminism.

              That says more about you than about feminism…

              Dude, they don’t call masculinity toxic

              They do. They always talk about toxic masculinity, never any other kind. Does that not strike you as intentional?

              And you can deny its misandry, but it is obvious to us.

              I could link you some resources, but I’m not sure if you’re willing to read them and let them challenge your views.

              And a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY

              And that’s just the beginning of the rabbit hole.

              • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
                1·
                11 months ago

                That says more about you than about feminism…

                What does it say about me?

                toxic masculinity

                Exactly - there is masculinity and toxic masculinity. How don’t you get that simple distinction? They are not the same. Feminism is criticizing toxic masculinity not masculinity as a whole.

                I could link you some resources, but I’m not sure if you’re willing to read them and let them challenge your views.

                What exactly should I do with random raddit posts and a tedX talk? If you have arguments bring them here and let’s discuss.

                • a-man-from-earth@kbin.socialOP
                  8·
                  11 months ago

                  What does it say about me?

                  That you appear to be blind to the demonization of men so rampant within feminism, either willfully or because you’re a victim of its propaganda machine.

                  Exactly - there is masculinity and toxic masculinity.

                  Does feminism ever talk about positive masculinity? That’s the problem: they habitually associate masculinity with toxicity. And the characteristics of a gender (what it means to be a man, or a woman) cannot be toxic.

                  Instead they should be more careful with their terminology and use for example toxic gender expectations. But they don’t. And that’s telling for a movement that is so sensitive to gendered language.

                  What exactly should I do with random raddit posts and a tedX talk? If you have arguments bring them here and let’s discuss.

                  If you’re interested in getting familiar with our arguments and the evidence, then there are some sources. They are not “random”.

                  And if you’re not interested, then I think we’re done here.

                  • gapbetweenus@feddit.de
                    1·
                    11 months ago

                    That you appear to be blind to the demonization of men so rampant within feminism, either willfully or because you’re a victim of its propaganda machine.

                    Possible. Also possible that you have a wrong understanding of feminism, based on biased consumption of media - fed by algorithms that drive clicks. Unfortunately there is no way to know.

                    Does feminism ever talk about positive masculinity?

                    Yes it does, quite a lot.

                    That’s the problem: they habitually associate masculinity with toxicity.

                    It does not. You have that association - but I for example don’t. Most likely due to difference in media that we consume.

                    And the characteristics of a gender (what it means to be a man, or a woman) cannot be toxic.

                    For longest part it was expected from men to defend their honor though violent means? Don’t you think that this is not a really healthy behavior? Talking about toxic elements of a gender - people don’t talk about biology but about societal norms and expectations. And those can be very burdensome on the individual. You can read about it - right here in this thread, people feeling the burden of the expectation to be the provider for example.

                    Instead they should be more careful with their terminology and use for example toxic gender expectations. But they don’t. And that’s telling for a movement that is so sensitive to gendered language.

                    Actually an argument I could agree with you upon. Toxic gender expectation would indeed be a better term.

                    If you’re interested in getting familiar with our arguments and the evidence, then there are some sources. They are not “random”.

                    Sure you read Simone de Beauvoir: Second Gender (good introduction to classical Feminism - one should have read, has bit of length like all her works, but is quite insightful) - I go though your links and videos and we meet again in, how long do you need for ca. 1000 pages?, and discuss.