Rebuttal: I’m extremely fickle, so someone else making choices for me is what I need. In KDE I spent wasted days customizing and just gave up in the end. It’s the same idea as using prettier instead of using your own lint rules: you stop wasting time and just do the thing you’re there to do.
In general, for configs (linting, neovim, etc), I prefer taking something really good and tweaking the parts I dislike—which is the model GNOME uses. Probabilistically, it’s exponentially likely that your preferences are only a little bit away from someone else—just use their thing and spend 15 minutes tweaking them.
See, while I understand that the “the system should be invisible and get out of the way so people can do things with their computers” philosophy isn’t for me, I entirely understand it as not only valid, but preferred by most people. –
– It’s just that Gnome’s approach to “getting out of the way” is at best counterproductive? I used Gnome for like 3 months in 2022, figured I’d give it a try, I’m always down to try new stuff. And I felt like I was just constantly fighting against it, having to do configuration stuff and install third-party addons not as a funtime activity because I like to make my computer look prettier, but because if I didn’t, shit just refused to work. It was only much later that I learned that the reason I had to keep wrestling Gnome is because the peeps behind it had actively decided that the things I needed to do were stupid and didn’t need doing.
You’ll see me praising Cinnamon in a different comment. Cinnamon, a cousin of Gnome’s born of Gnome 2, is what I’d call a DE that gets out of the way. It doesn’t have all the moving parts that KDE does, and that is to its credit. Because it has everything it needs to have and no more but also no less.
Cinnamon absolutely is fantastic, and I 100% agree that it gets out of the way really well.
I’m curious what you needed to do that GNOME was fighting you. I’m not invalidating it, I’m genuinely just curious, since I haven’t used a Linux system for personal/work use for about 5 years now, so my ideas of GNOME/KDE/etc. are almost certainly dated. To clarify: vanilla GNOME is kind of awful, and I’ve always wondered if anyone genuinely uses it stock while also being aware that extensions exist.
I already mentioned the System Tray, back then I used MegaSync for cloud backups and that app was completely broken due to the lack of a Tray. (I have since switched to using Syncthing and an old laptop with a USB HDD as a ghetto “”“”“NAS”“”“” solution… Which would probably work quite well on Gnome actually, as Syncthing is a service and is controlled through a web interface)
Wine stuff was janky as hell. As were Qt apps. For one thing wine applications, too, expected a Tray, and would instead spawn a tiny window at the corner for tray stuff. Plus there was weird behaviour with some windows and the way they layered. As for Qt apps? Gnome offered no features for setting the look of Qt apps, so if I set Gnome to dark mode (by the way, very neat feature how Gnome’s default theme deals with that, no joke here, very seamless and elegant, even if I’d never use light mode willingly), Qt apps would still be bright and I had to just install a third-party application for it (qt5ct) and set something in my /etc/environment.
All of these things had solutions, to be sure, an extension for the tray, a third-party application for the Qt apps, etc. But then I did an apt upgrade and literally all the extensions broke. So I had to spend an extra hour that day figuring out what I’d do about that. Joy of joys.
Then there is the Gnome File Manager.
Why in the name of all that is unholy did it not let one type in the addresses of folders? Or copy them or… ? Sure, icons and breadcrumbs are nice, but being able to type in an address when you know it saves a ton of time. And maybe I want to copy a location to use it on the terminal? That should have been one of the first things to be implemented. Apparently a recent patch to Gnome has added the address bar “feature” (which has been part of Windows Explorer since 1994 and of every Linux File Manager I’ve known since forever–), but like. Bruh.
So I installed Thunar, the File Manager from XFCE, but now I was using a separate file manager entirely and having to deal with everything that comes with switching file managers from the DE’s default. Like. WOW.
Wine stuff was janky as hell. As were Qt apps. For one thing wine applications, too, expected a Tray, and would instead spawn a tiny window at the corner for tray stuff. Plus there was weird behaviour with some windows and the way they layered. As for Qt apps? Gnome offered no features for setting the look of Qt apps, so if I set Gnome to dark mode (by the way, very neat feature how Gnome’s default theme deals with that, no joke here, very seamless and elegant, even if I’d never use light mode willingly), Qt apps would still be bright and I had to just install a third-party application for it (qt5ct) and set something in my /etc/environment.
Sorry, I laughed out loud when I read that. Only in Linux land would we run into issues like this because stuff is modular so when things aren’t the way something expects, shit breaks in the stupidest ways.
All of these things had solutions, to be sure, an extension for the tray, a third-party application for the Qt apps, etc. But then I did an apt upgrade and literally all the extensions broke. So I had to spend an extra hour that day figuring out what I’d do about that. Joy of joys.
Oh I learned early on to either update super regularly so I can see what’s breaking as it happens, or be careful upgrading. The number of times I’ve broken shit by updating software is insane (and not limited to GNOME). Even on macOS, the number of times I’ve fixed something by symlinking a library file to the same location with an older version name is stupid. I can see why people are interested in something like NixOS.
Then there is the Gnome File Manager.
You could’ve just stopped there, I had forgotten how weirdly awful it was. The amount of time I spent getting that stupid thing to just fucking have options like “Open in Terminal” is insane.
Rebuttal: I’m extremely fickle, so someone else making choices for me is what I need. In KDE I
spentwasted days customizing and just gave up in the end. It’s the same idea as using prettier instead of using your own lint rules: you stop wasting time and just do the thing you’re there to do.In general, for configs (linting, neovim, etc), I prefer taking something really good and tweaking the parts I dislike—which is the model GNOME uses. Probabilistically, it’s exponentially likely that your preferences are only a little bit away from someone else—just use their thing and spend 15 minutes tweaking them.
See, while I understand that the “the system should be invisible and get out of the way so people can do things with their computers” philosophy isn’t for me, I entirely understand it as not only valid, but preferred by most people. –
– It’s just that Gnome’s approach to “getting out of the way” is at best counterproductive? I used Gnome for like 3 months in 2022, figured I’d give it a try, I’m always down to try new stuff. And I felt like I was just constantly fighting against it, having to do configuration stuff and install third-party addons not as a funtime activity because I like to make my computer look prettier, but because if I didn’t, shit just refused to work. It was only much later that I learned that the reason I had to keep wrestling Gnome is because the peeps behind it had actively decided that the things I needed to do were stupid and didn’t need doing.
You’ll see me praising Cinnamon in a different comment. Cinnamon, a cousin of Gnome’s born of Gnome 2, is what I’d call a DE that gets out of the way. It doesn’t have all the moving parts that KDE does, and that is to its credit. Because it has everything it needs to have and no more but also no less.
Cinnamon absolutely is fantastic, and I 100% agree that it gets out of the way really well.
I’m curious what you needed to do that GNOME was fighting you. I’m not invalidating it, I’m genuinely just curious, since I haven’t used a Linux system for personal/work use for about 5 years now, so my ideas of GNOME/KDE/etc. are almost certainly dated. To clarify: vanilla GNOME is kind of awful, and I’ve always wondered if anyone genuinely uses it stock while also being aware that extensions exist.
I already mentioned the System Tray, back then I used MegaSync for cloud backups and that app was completely broken due to the lack of a Tray. (I have since switched to using Syncthing and an old laptop with a USB HDD as a ghetto “”“”“NAS”“”“” solution… Which would probably work quite well on Gnome actually, as Syncthing is a service and is controlled through a web interface)
Wine stuff was janky as hell. As were Qt apps. For one thing wine applications, too, expected a Tray, and would instead spawn a tiny window at the corner for tray stuff. Plus there was weird behaviour with some windows and the way they layered. As for Qt apps? Gnome offered no features for setting the look of Qt apps, so if I set Gnome to dark mode (by the way, very neat feature how Gnome’s default theme deals with that, no joke here, very seamless and elegant, even if I’d never use light mode willingly), Qt apps would still be bright and I had to just install a third-party application for it (qt5ct) and set something in my /etc/environment.
All of these things had solutions, to be sure, an extension for the tray, a third-party application for the Qt apps, etc. But then I did an
apt upgradeand literally all the extensions broke. So I had to spend an extra hour that day figuring out what I’d do about that. Joy of joys.Then there is the Gnome File Manager.
Why in the name of all that is unholy did it not let one type in the addresses of folders? Or copy them or… ? Sure, icons and breadcrumbs are nice, but being able to type in an address when you know it saves a ton of time. And maybe I want to copy a location to use it on the terminal? That should have been one of the first things to be implemented. Apparently a recent patch to Gnome has added the address bar “feature” (which has been part of Windows Explorer since 1994 and of every Linux File Manager I’ve known since forever–), but like. Bruh.
So I installed Thunar, the File Manager from XFCE, but now I was using a separate file manager entirely and having to deal with everything that comes with switching file managers from the DE’s default. Like. WOW.
Sorry, I laughed out loud when I read that. Only in Linux land would we run into issues like this because stuff is modular so when things aren’t the way something expects, shit breaks in the stupidest ways.
Oh I learned early on to either update super regularly so I can see what’s breaking as it happens, or be careful upgrading. The number of times I’ve broken shit by updating software is insane (and not limited to GNOME). Even on macOS, the number of times I’ve fixed something by symlinking a library file to the same location with an older version name is stupid. I can see why people are interested in something like NixOS.
You could’ve just stopped there, I had forgotten how weirdly awful it was. The amount of time I spent getting that stupid thing to just fucking have options like “Open in Terminal” is insane.