First you have to define what you mean when you say “reinforcement” and then differentiate it from “treatment”. Are you “reinforcing” Autism when you avoid situations where you’re likely to encounter loud sounds and bright lights, or when you avoid large groups of people, etc.? Are you “reinforcing” ADHD when you choose to work a non-traditional schedule and job because that’s what allows you to work with the disorder? Why is presenting as something other than your assigned gender suddenly “reinforcement of a mental illness” and not “treatment”? Where do you draw the line between “reinforcing it” and “accepting your condition changes who you are and requires you to live differently from others, and utilizing effective strategies and medications that may improve quality of life and reduce suffering in the long term”?
You give eating disorders the treatment they get because, without it, the disorder will severely harm the person. You give gender dysphoria the treatment it gets because proper treatment for the specific person’s case, whether it’s transitioning via using appropriate pronouns or being more open with their non-traditional behaviours or making efforts to outwardly appear non-traditionally or going through HRT etc., is effective at reducing harm related to the dysphoria. What you call “reinforcing” eating disorders is not comparable to gender affirming care because it does not have the same effects.
I didn’t think I had to define basic words but if I have to, sure. I define reinforcement as supporting behaviors that are symptoms of the disorder. If someone who has autism becomes extremely antisocial for instance, reinforcement would be allow them to continue that behavior as well as support it by giving them blackout curtains, better locks, whatever would make that antisocial behavior stronger or more frequent. I define treatment as attempting to correct the behaviors the disorder spurs on. Using the same example, rather than pushing the person with autism to become more antisocial (even if it’s comfortable) to instead gradually move away from that by introducing them to people (or whatever would be appropriate for their current needs).
Why is presenting as something other than your assigned gender suddenly “reinforcement of a mental illness” and not “treatment”?
Because the vast majority of people do not feel the need to present as something other than their assigned gender. Most people, nearly all of them, are comfortable in their own body with the gender they are and the thought of changing that never crosses their mind. Those who don’t or can’t feel comfortable within themselves should receive treatment either through therapy or with a solution we will one day find.
The reason this frustrates me is because the attitude is now to not look for a solution, to not look for a treatment, but to instead normalize the disorder because the effect is generally harmless. Ideally, I’d like everyone to feel comfortable in their body from the day they’re born to the day they die and I think it’s worth looking for a way to do that.
I didn’t think I had to define basic words but if I have to, sure. I define reinforcement as supporting behaviors that are symptoms of the disorder.
Then you have a completely different definition of “reinforcement” from a majority of other people. Reinforcement is manipulating a being using conditioning methods like emotional reward/punishment in order to get them to do a specific behaviour. You can also use “reinforcement” to mean “supporting a person”, but clearly that’s not what you want.
I define treatment as attempting to correct the behaviors the disorder spurs on.
What is “correcting” gender dysphoria to you? Forcing them to feel uncomfortable in their bodies and tell them they’re wrong for feeling that way, despite that not working and there being actual treatment that improves wellbeing available? It is erroneous to label gender-denying ““correcting”” as “treatment”, and then deny gender-affirming care being treatment, your take is an insult to real science.
Because the vast majority of people do not feel the need to present as something other than their assigned gender. Most people, nearly all of them, are comfortable in their own body with the gender they are and the thought of changing that never crosses their mind.
Buddy I hate to tell you this but that’s literally what disorders and treatments for those disorders are in this society. “Most people” don’t need to take bipolar meds or conscioisly think about the tone inflection of others in every conversation they have. You finding it “abnormal” does not affect the validity of the disorders and treatments, because they are inherently abnormal. That’s why they’re CALLED disorders, because their presence does not align well with a neurotypical society.
Those who don’t or can’t feel comfortable within themselves should receive treatment either through therapy
Which is what gender affirming care is, and it WORKS.
or with a solution we will one day find.
Yeah it’s pretty easy for a privileged person to say “don’t use the effective treatment we currently have because I personally don’t like it, and hope humanity finds something I do like in the future”
The reason this frustrates me is because the attitude is now to not look for a solution,
We have solutions. And we use them.
to not look for a treatment,
We have treatments. And we use them.
but to instead normalize the disorder because the effect is generally harmless.
What in god’s name are you talking about? You sound like those people who said “stop normalizing the gays, homosexuality is a mental illness and letting people be homosexual is bad and disgusting and we should just correct them and tell them to be straight”. Because that IS what they said. That is also what they said about women who “defied” men and refused to be controlled by men a long time ago.
Ideally, I’d like everyone to feel comfortable in their body from the day they’re born to the day they die and I think it’s worth looking for a way to do that.
Ok but there is no way to do that. And the ideal is a fantasy. We have real science supported by the real fields of psychology and psychiatry by real medical professionals. We are being realistic, doing what is shown by science to be the most effective form of treatment, and doing what gives the best outcome for everyone.
Thinking you can (or should attempt to) invalidate people with gender dysphoria rather than affirm them is a fundamental (and likely intentional in this case) misunderstanding of what gender dysphoria actually is. You are disparaging the credibility of the scientific community, and doing that as someone who doesn’t know anything about pyschology, because you don’t like reality. You don’t care if people with gender dysphoria suffer from your proposed anti-treatment because you don’t care about them, you care about society appearing how you want it to appear.
Also this, lol:
If someone who has autism becomes extremely antisocial for instance,
When people use “antisocial” against Autistic people, they generally mean it as “I don’t like how you act, I think you lack empathy, and you need to be normal”. ASD does not make you antisocial. It makes your socializing tendencies appear VERY different from neurotypicals’, and makes it far easier to connect with other neurodivergent people, but the only people who assert it actually makes you against socializing are clowns who know nothing about having Autism.
reinforcement would be allow them to continue that behavior
ASD treatment does not involve “correcting” who and how you tend to socialize with.
as well as support it by giving them blackout curtains, better locks,
You’re not aware of this, but this is what people with Autism ACTUALLY OFTEN DO and is generally something that IMPROVES QUALITY OF LIFE. Fucking insane you act like this is “crazy” or harmful behaviour.
whatever would make that antisocial behavior stronger or more frequent.
Again, you clearly don’t know what Autism is or how it’s treated.
Using the same example, rather than pushing the person with autism to become more antisocial (even if it’s comfortable)
I like how you’re using being “pushed” as a way to pretend that people with gender dysphoria are being “pushed” into wanting gender affirming care. Unbelievable.
And “being pushed to be antisocial” is not at all what people with Autism find comfortable. Your beliefs on ASD and the treatment for it are inherently extremely wrong.
to instead gradually move away from that by introducing them to people (or whatever would be appropriate for their current needs).
The people with ASD who are socially hindered by their atypical mechanisms for social interaction and emotions, who want to do programs to “introduce” themselves to others, may. But this isn’t a “right” or “wrong” thing to do, this isn’t central to ASD treatment and doesn’t address the issues of ASD, and this is only something someone does if they want to do it or if they’re pressured/forced into doing it by others (usually family). Most people with Autism don’t do this as part of treatment.
You are acting like ASD is some anti-social disorder that makes you socialize wrong which needs to be corrected. This is not at all true – people with ASD are very different from neurotypicals, which causes problems, but the approach isn’t to “correct the Autism” or to try to make them be “normal”. It’s quite literally to do what makes them the most comfortable with their life, that is the point of the treatment, if they find they don’t want to mask their ASD just because our society is extremely ableist and restrict the functioning of someone with ASD, then they won’t mask their ASD.
I like your response. You responded politely, you took apart every portion of their frankly ridiculous comment and highlighted how it diverges from sound health care practices and ideas. You responded with what the current, science backed approaches are and why they work. If they were trying to learn and make themselves a better person they would have thanked you for the information and updated their views.
So of course they’re not going to respond anymore because they’re just a right wing conservative troll looking for a fight over “wokeness in medicine”.
Good job anyways, very informative and respectful!
Left vs Right, to me at least, is the way we look at people who aren’t the same as us. Left wing ideology is basically that each person should be viewed as an individual and, to the extent possible, be allowed to live their best life and pursue happiness. Right wing ideology is that society is a hierarchy and there are better people, who deserve the freedom to pursue their goals at great social cost (proportional to their position) because their innate greatness will improve society far more than the cost. Then there are worse people who should be restrained (proportional to their position) from pursuing their goals because their “degenerate” goals can only harm social progress.
If you listen to what he thinks about trans people I think it’s easy to see he thinks they should be restricted while people like him should be free to impose “treatments” not backed by medicine to make the world “right”.
First you have to define what you mean when you say “reinforcement” and then differentiate it from “treatment”. Are you “reinforcing” Autism when you avoid situations where you’re likely to encounter loud sounds and bright lights, or when you avoid large groups of people, etc.? Are you “reinforcing” ADHD when you choose to work a non-traditional schedule and job because that’s what allows you to work with the disorder? Why is presenting as something other than your assigned gender suddenly “reinforcement of a mental illness” and not “treatment”? Where do you draw the line between “reinforcing it” and “accepting your condition changes who you are and requires you to live differently from others, and utilizing effective strategies and medications that may improve quality of life and reduce suffering in the long term”?
You give eating disorders the treatment they get because, without it, the disorder will severely harm the person. You give gender dysphoria the treatment it gets because proper treatment for the specific person’s case, whether it’s transitioning via using appropriate pronouns or being more open with their non-traditional behaviours or making efforts to outwardly appear non-traditionally or going through HRT etc., is effective at reducing harm related to the dysphoria. What you call “reinforcing” eating disorders is not comparable to gender affirming care because it does not have the same effects.
I didn’t think I had to define basic words but if I have to, sure. I define reinforcement as supporting behaviors that are symptoms of the disorder. If someone who has autism becomes extremely antisocial for instance, reinforcement would be allow them to continue that behavior as well as support it by giving them blackout curtains, better locks, whatever would make that antisocial behavior stronger or more frequent. I define treatment as attempting to correct the behaviors the disorder spurs on. Using the same example, rather than pushing the person with autism to become more antisocial (even if it’s comfortable) to instead gradually move away from that by introducing them to people (or whatever would be appropriate for their current needs).
Because the vast majority of people do not feel the need to present as something other than their assigned gender. Most people, nearly all of them, are comfortable in their own body with the gender they are and the thought of changing that never crosses their mind. Those who don’t or can’t feel comfortable within themselves should receive treatment either through therapy or with a solution we will one day find.
The reason this frustrates me is because the attitude is now to not look for a solution, to not look for a treatment, but to instead normalize the disorder because the effect is generally harmless. Ideally, I’d like everyone to feel comfortable in their body from the day they’re born to the day they die and I think it’s worth looking for a way to do that.
Then you have a completely different definition of “reinforcement” from a majority of other people. Reinforcement is manipulating a being using conditioning methods like emotional reward/punishment in order to get them to do a specific behaviour. You can also use “reinforcement” to mean “supporting a person”, but clearly that’s not what you want.
What is “correcting” gender dysphoria to you? Forcing them to feel uncomfortable in their bodies and tell them they’re wrong for feeling that way, despite that not working and there being actual treatment that improves wellbeing available? It is erroneous to label gender-denying ““correcting”” as “treatment”, and then deny gender-affirming care being treatment, your take is an insult to real science.
Buddy I hate to tell you this but that’s literally what disorders and treatments for those disorders are in this society. “Most people” don’t need to take bipolar meds or conscioisly think about the tone inflection of others in every conversation they have. You finding it “abnormal” does not affect the validity of the disorders and treatments, because they are inherently abnormal. That’s why they’re CALLED disorders, because their presence does not align well with a neurotypical society.
Which is what gender affirming care is, and it WORKS.
Yeah it’s pretty easy for a privileged person to say “don’t use the effective treatment we currently have because I personally don’t like it, and hope humanity finds something I do like in the future”
We have solutions. And we use them.
We have treatments. And we use them.
What in god’s name are you talking about? You sound like those people who said “stop normalizing the gays, homosexuality is a mental illness and letting people be homosexual is bad and disgusting and we should just correct them and tell them to be straight”. Because that IS what they said. That is also what they said about women who “defied” men and refused to be controlled by men a long time ago.
Ok but there is no way to do that. And the ideal is a fantasy. We have real science supported by the real fields of psychology and psychiatry by real medical professionals. We are being realistic, doing what is shown by science to be the most effective form of treatment, and doing what gives the best outcome for everyone.
Thinking you can (or should attempt to) invalidate people with gender dysphoria rather than affirm them is a fundamental (and likely intentional in this case) misunderstanding of what gender dysphoria actually is. You are disparaging the credibility of the scientific community, and doing that as someone who doesn’t know anything about pyschology, because you don’t like reality. You don’t care if people with gender dysphoria suffer from your proposed anti-treatment because you don’t care about them, you care about society appearing how you want it to appear.
Also this, lol:
When people use “antisocial” against Autistic people, they generally mean it as “I don’t like how you act, I think you lack empathy, and you need to be normal”. ASD does not make you antisocial. It makes your socializing tendencies appear VERY different from neurotypicals’, and makes it far easier to connect with other neurodivergent people, but the only people who assert it actually makes you against socializing are clowns who know nothing about having Autism.
ASD treatment does not involve “correcting” who and how you tend to socialize with.
You’re not aware of this, but this is what people with Autism ACTUALLY OFTEN DO and is generally something that IMPROVES QUALITY OF LIFE. Fucking insane you act like this is “crazy” or harmful behaviour.
Again, you clearly don’t know what Autism is or how it’s treated.
I like how you’re using being “pushed” as a way to pretend that people with gender dysphoria are being “pushed” into wanting gender affirming care. Unbelievable.
And “being pushed to be antisocial” is not at all what people with Autism find comfortable. Your beliefs on ASD and the treatment for it are inherently extremely wrong.
The people with ASD who are socially hindered by their atypical mechanisms for social interaction and emotions, who want to do programs to “introduce” themselves to others, may. But this isn’t a “right” or “wrong” thing to do, this isn’t central to ASD treatment and doesn’t address the issues of ASD, and this is only something someone does if they want to do it or if they’re pressured/forced into doing it by others (usually family). Most people with Autism don’t do this as part of treatment.
You are acting like ASD is some anti-social disorder that makes you socialize wrong which needs to be corrected. This is not at all true – people with ASD are very different from neurotypicals, which causes problems, but the approach isn’t to “correct the Autism” or to try to make them be “normal”. It’s quite literally to do what makes them the most comfortable with their life, that is the point of the treatment, if they find they don’t want to mask their ASD just because our society is extremely ableist and restrict the functioning of someone with ASD, then they won’t mask their ASD.
I like your response. You responded politely, you took apart every portion of their frankly ridiculous comment and highlighted how it diverges from sound health care practices and ideas. You responded with what the current, science backed approaches are and why they work. If they were trying to learn and make themselves a better person they would have thanked you for the information and updated their views.
So of course they’re not going to respond anymore because they’re just a right wing conservative troll looking for a fight over “wokeness in medicine”.
Good job anyways, very informative and respectful!
I don’t think they are right wing. The same account referred to Trump as Defunded Donald. Ignorance exists all over the political spectrum.
Left vs Right, to me at least, is the way we look at people who aren’t the same as us. Left wing ideology is basically that each person should be viewed as an individual and, to the extent possible, be allowed to live their best life and pursue happiness. Right wing ideology is that society is a hierarchy and there are better people, who deserve the freedom to pursue their goals at great social cost (proportional to their position) because their innate greatness will improve society far more than the cost. Then there are worse people who should be restrained (proportional to their position) from pursuing their goals because their “degenerate” goals can only harm social progress.
If you listen to what he thinks about trans people I think it’s easy to see he thinks they should be restricted while people like him should be free to impose “treatments” not backed by medicine to make the world “right”.