While I understand the reasoning for the University to want to post with these criteria, the method used is basically fighting discrimination with discrimination. If there are under-represented social groups that aren’t applying to these jobs, where they have to block applicants of a small subset of the population, the issues aren’t solved at all, they’re just ignored.
I’m trying to understand this comment. How does hiring under-represented social groups not address the issue of certain social groups being under-represented in hiring?
I’ve thought about your comment a lot since you posted it, trying to find an answer to it. I’ve also spoken to someone I know who works in this sphere of social inclusion.
I’ve found that my knee-jerk reaction to a posting like this is that it should not be legal to limit only one group from applying to a job.
After thinking about it, I understand more completely why they do this (and learned that there are laws concerning equality in hiring in Canada, which I find hard to accept too - because it basically states everyone who is not a white man is in a protected class) and that it ultimately may be the only solution to a problem where equality in the hiring process of many of these issues.
I still don’t like that it is completely fine with everyone that one group is basically the only one that is “not protected”. It feels like someone proclaiming that “we are being inclusive, but not for you” which is just reversing the injustice instead of correcting the one we already have. Ultimately I don’t have an easy answer because it isn’t an easy question, nor an easy solution.
I come to this community because I know I’m going to see posts and comments I don’t agree with. I want to be able to explain to myself why. Why don’t I agree with it?
I come up with my own reasons, often doing some research to see if my reasons hold up to evidence, but rarely do I post what I come up with. It’s just an exercise for myself. Often times I end up learning a lot more about a topic than before and realizing my original arguments weren’t nuanced enough. I’m glad you had a similar experience!
Originally, I thought the argument you were going to make was that getting more women into computer science research chairs doesn’t happen by only hiring women for that position, but by getting more women interested in the topic at a younger age. Why don’t more women pursue an education or career in computer science? There must be something influencing that decision in their childhood or teenage years. Is it nature or nurture? It’s likely a combination of things!
For me, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a university ensuring at least one member of their computer science research group is a woman, but I also think more could be done to encourage women to pursue a PhD in computer science in the first place. If that were the case, the university might not need this hiring practice.
Yes, well I do think more efforts could be made earlier on in the journey from education to getting a job to ensure that everyone gets their fair chance, but even then, there will still be hiring biases and other factors in play.
I had to check which community these comments were in, I happened to stumble on it on the “all” section of my app (I would not subscribe to this community, probably too political and toxic for my taste and not my cup of tea). I’ve checked the posts on this community and it seems very skewed towards not wanting inclusion and equality… maybe for some of the same reasons I have mentioned but for which people might not take a few minutes or days to think it through.
I think it’s nice that you’re engaging in seeking differing views and maybe challenging a few of them. You seem very respectful, it’s great.
I think your question on “why don’t more women pursue an education in X” is so complex and has too many nuances for a simple answer. I’d like to think it’s simply a preference, but I’m (very) probably wrong and there’s many reasons making it difficult or unattractive to pursue. There’s probably not enough role models to look up to, also.
I don’t think this is about being a victim.
While I understand the reasoning for the University to want to post with these criteria, the method used is basically fighting discrimination with discrimination. If there are under-represented social groups that aren’t applying to these jobs, where they have to block applicants of a small subset of the population, the issues aren’t solved at all, they’re just ignored.
I’m trying to understand this comment. How does hiring under-represented social groups not address the issue of certain social groups being under-represented in hiring?
I’ve thought about your comment a lot since you posted it, trying to find an answer to it. I’ve also spoken to someone I know who works in this sphere of social inclusion.
I’ve found that my knee-jerk reaction to a posting like this is that it should not be legal to limit only one group from applying to a job.
After thinking about it, I understand more completely why they do this (and learned that there are laws concerning equality in hiring in Canada, which I find hard to accept too - because it basically states everyone who is not a white man is in a protected class) and that it ultimately may be the only solution to a problem where equality in the hiring process of many of these issues.
I still don’t like that it is completely fine with everyone that one group is basically the only one that is “not protected”. It feels like someone proclaiming that “we are being inclusive, but not for you” which is just reversing the injustice instead of correcting the one we already have. Ultimately I don’t have an easy answer because it isn’t an easy question, nor an easy solution.
Wow! What a great comment!
I come to this community because I know I’m going to see posts and comments I don’t agree with. I want to be able to explain to myself why. Why don’t I agree with it?
I come up with my own reasons, often doing some research to see if my reasons hold up to evidence, but rarely do I post what I come up with. It’s just an exercise for myself. Often times I end up learning a lot more about a topic than before and realizing my original arguments weren’t nuanced enough. I’m glad you had a similar experience!
Originally, I thought the argument you were going to make was that getting more women into computer science research chairs doesn’t happen by only hiring women for that position, but by getting more women interested in the topic at a younger age. Why don’t more women pursue an education or career in computer science? There must be something influencing that decision in their childhood or teenage years. Is it nature or nurture? It’s likely a combination of things!
For me, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a university ensuring at least one member of their computer science research group is a woman, but I also think more could be done to encourage women to pursue a PhD in computer science in the first place. If that were the case, the university might not need this hiring practice.
Thanks for the well thought out response!
Yes, well I do think more efforts could be made earlier on in the journey from education to getting a job to ensure that everyone gets their fair chance, but even then, there will still be hiring biases and other factors in play.
I had to check which community these comments were in, I happened to stumble on it on the “all” section of my app (I would not subscribe to this community, probably too political and toxic for my taste and not my cup of tea). I’ve checked the posts on this community and it seems very skewed towards not wanting inclusion and equality… maybe for some of the same reasons I have mentioned but for which people might not take a few minutes or days to think it through.
I think it’s nice that you’re engaging in seeking differing views and maybe challenging a few of them. You seem very respectful, it’s great.
I think your question on “why don’t more women pursue an education in X” is so complex and has too many nuances for a simple answer. I’d like to think it’s simply a preference, but I’m (very) probably wrong and there’s many reasons making it difficult or unattractive to pursue. There’s probably not enough role models to look up to, also.