One of the worst side effects of the protest is that it has changed the whole conversation into a “Reddit versus mods thing”
This wasn’t just about moderation tools, and it’s shitty how so many headlines have claimed it is.
What about us regular users? We who supported the protests because we like the 3rd party apps and didn’t want to lose them. Why is that not reason enough? Why does this have to be about accessibility or moderation tools?
Why do mods get concessions but not the users? How about us that don’t want to use your trash official app, huh? Where are your vapid promises to us?
Proof is in the pudding. There’s a reason we’re talking about this here instead of on Reddit.
The mods are getting concessions (if they get anything–it’s yet to be seen whether anything actually comes of any new promises) because the Reddit admins realize that they need the free labor. They don’t need users, because they believe–rightly or wrongly–that nobody else can get enough market share fast enough to actually matter. People will give up on projects like Lemmy and begrudgingly eat whatever ad-friendly shit Huffman feeds them. The users are the product Reddit has to sell to its advertises, and they think they can always make more of those. Mods, on the other hand–those are part of the infrastructure, and they don’t make money. They cost money. So Reddit really, really wants those mods to stay/come back and keep working for imaginary internet clout (and the occasional corporate bribe), and they’ll pitch whatever lies they can think of to make that happen.
The worst future for Reddit is the one in which subreddits have to be moderated by actual paid employees–employees who do things like adopt statements of end users and expose Reddit to potential liability.
For me it was also about the principle. Sure Reddit can make monkey and be a healthy business. But don’t pretend people are leeching of your data, because all the content is created by the users, not Reddit, even the mods are volunteers.
I really hate the attitude where they expect free stuff but don’t want to give anything back.
Exactly! There is absolutely nothing wrong for both third-party developers using Reddit and Reddit itself to be profitable. However, Reddit’s leadership has decided this absolutely cannot fly.
There’s general broad agreement that if Reddit wants to charge for API access, that’s fine, but the prices and timelines are absolutely not practical for any third-party developer. All existing third-party applications today get by because of an exemption (signed under NDA). The fact that Narwhal’s developer has not divulged the specifics of the agreement and has generally pussy-footed around it when asked speaks volumes about Reddit’s “transparency”.
There were so many ways to monetize this out of the users directly instead of going after third-party developers; instead Reddit decided that the third-party developers were a direct enemy and competitor, rather than a value-added component of their platform. It’s absolutely stupid.
Reddit tried to control the narrative by dividing and conquering users. They inflamed some valid criticism about bad mods but ended up ostracizing a lot of “internet janitors” who were blissfully doing the job for free. The mods thing also became an issue because mods keep subreddits clean so ultimately the impact to the mods impacts the users, regardless of the user’s app of choice.
Mods are unpaid “workers” that make it possible for Reddit to be appealing to advertisers and be potentially viable to go public. Framing the story around them gives outsiders a reason to think that admins are doing something that will make their unpaid jobs harder (which is true) and gives them someone to feel bad for.
Otherwise the story is a bunch of non-paying users of Reddit are upset that a company wants to regain control over the ad revenue 3rd party app creators take instead, either through ads on their own platforms or premium memberships. Which I do think there is more nuance because Reddit is only as powerful as their user base so maybe they deserve some concessions, but the average news reader who isn’t on Reddit won’t understand that.
Just to clarify, I’m annoyed as well and not saying we shouldn’t take our contributors and lurkers elsewhere. I moved over to Lemmy as a RIF user and refuse to use the app. Just giving the likely answer to the question!
As someone who modded, it’s because we did immense amounts of volunteer labor for them that they couldn’t function without. We had to be appeased because we were able to organize and shut everything down. But also I didn’t leave because of mod issues. I left because as a user apollo was so much better than the official app that I wouldn’t settle for it
I don’t even use third party apps, but it’s fundamentally bad for the internet for big websites to do shit like this to try to lock off their APIs to only paid users even though it’s a free website populated entirely by user generated content.
One of the worst side effects of the protest is that it has changed the whole conversation into a “Reddit versus mods thing”
This wasn’t just about moderation tools, and it’s shitty how so many headlines have claimed it is.
What about us regular users? We who supported the protests because we like the 3rd party apps and didn’t want to lose them. Why is that not reason enough? Why does this have to be about accessibility or moderation tools?
Why do mods get concessions but not the users? How about us that don’t want to use your trash official app, huh? Where are your vapid promises to us?
Proof is in the pudding. There’s a reason we’re talking about this here instead of on Reddit.
The mods are getting concessions (if they get anything–it’s yet to be seen whether anything actually comes of any new promises) because the Reddit admins realize that they need the free labor. They don’t need users, because they believe–rightly or wrongly–that nobody else can get enough market share fast enough to actually matter. People will give up on projects like Lemmy and begrudgingly eat whatever ad-friendly shit Huffman feeds them. The users are the product Reddit has to sell to its advertises, and they think they can always make more of those. Mods, on the other hand–those are part of the infrastructure, and they don’t make money. They cost money. So Reddit really, really wants those mods to stay/come back and keep working for imaginary internet clout (and the occasional corporate bribe), and they’ll pitch whatever lies they can think of to make that happen.
The worst future for Reddit is the one in which subreddits have to be moderated by actual paid employees–employees who do things like adopt statements of end users and expose Reddit to potential liability.
Can’t wait to see Reddit Corporate deciding whether or not a particular post is really gonewildgrannies material!
For me it was also about the principle. Sure Reddit can make monkey and be a healthy business. But don’t pretend people are leeching of your data, because all the content is created by the users, not Reddit, even the mods are volunteers.
I really hate the attitude where they expect free stuff but don’t want to give anything back.
Exactly! There is absolutely nothing wrong for both third-party developers using Reddit and Reddit itself to be profitable. However, Reddit’s leadership has decided this absolutely cannot fly.
There’s general broad agreement that if Reddit wants to charge for API access, that’s fine, but the prices and timelines are absolutely not practical for any third-party developer. All existing third-party applications today get by because of an exemption (signed under NDA). The fact that Narwhal’s developer has not divulged the specifics of the agreement and has generally pussy-footed around it when asked speaks volumes about Reddit’s “transparency”.
There were so many ways to monetize this out of the users directly instead of going after third-party developers; instead Reddit decided that the third-party developers were a direct enemy and competitor, rather than a value-added component of their platform. It’s absolutely stupid.
Reddit tried to control the narrative by dividing and conquering users. They inflamed some valid criticism about bad mods but ended up ostracizing a lot of “internet janitors” who were blissfully doing the job for free. The mods thing also became an issue because mods keep subreddits clean so ultimately the impact to the mods impacts the users, regardless of the user’s app of choice.
Mods are unpaid “workers” that make it possible for Reddit to be appealing to advertisers and be potentially viable to go public. Framing the story around them gives outsiders a reason to think that admins are doing something that will make their unpaid jobs harder (which is true) and gives them someone to feel bad for.
Otherwise the story is a bunch of non-paying users of Reddit are upset that a company wants to regain control over the ad revenue 3rd party app creators take instead, either through ads on their own platforms or premium memberships. Which I do think there is more nuance because Reddit is only as powerful as their user base so maybe they deserve some concessions, but the average news reader who isn’t on Reddit won’t understand that.
Just to clarify, I’m annoyed as well and not saying we shouldn’t take our contributors and lurkers elsewhere. I moved over to Lemmy as a RIF user and refuse to use the app. Just giving the likely answer to the question!
As someone who modded, it’s because we did immense amounts of volunteer labor for them that they couldn’t function without. We had to be appeased because we were able to organize and shut everything down. But also I didn’t leave because of mod issues. I left because as a user apollo was so much better than the official app that I wouldn’t settle for it
I don’t even use third party apps, but it’s fundamentally bad for the internet for big websites to do shit like this to try to lock off their APIs to only paid users even though it’s a free website populated entirely by user generated content.