I personally consider the price of the car as the privilege of ownership. Its not like you can change the color of the train if you don’t like it or throw you trash in the corner. If the train is to slow, you can’t put a turbo in it. Plus, you can always sell you car, but you can’t sell your used train tickets.
I’ve owned my car current car for roughly 4 years now. I got it used and it lost about -1,000€ in value. Maintance is incredibly low, roughly -300€ in total. Insurance was the big money drainer with about -2000€ in total, but I got in a couple of minor fender benders that weren’t my fault and only resulted in scratched plastic so I got a payout of about +1300€. So in total, if I were to sell it right now, my car my car cost me 500€ annually over the course of 4 years (fuel exluded). Thats a fair price for the freedom a car gives you.
But there are certain situation that essentialy prohibit using a car. Getting to the airport is far easier by bus (my city has a direct line) and you don’t have to pay for weeks of parking.
Late night bus lines make going out to parties and clubs actually enjoyable, because you don’t have to leave your car in a shady part of town over night.
Parking is another problem. The US feels like 80% parking space but Europe doesn’t have that. The biggest parking area in my city is basically right at the central bus hub. So it wouldn’t make any difference time wise to go by car. But thanks to 20 traffic lights, riding a bicycle doesn’t either.
Bicyles are like the best extension to public transit. And its highly undervalued. I’d rather have them reduce prices for train tickets that include a bike, than build more train lines. Currently they are nearly twice as expensive as normal tickets (because a bike takes up more space I guess).
I didn’t say it cost gas only. Quite the opposite, I ignored the gas cost and shown only my rough cost of ownership. It’s just the fact that the huge entry price of buying a car is put in parallel to low ticket prices, when really, it shouldn’t. Otherwise you could also add the cost of shoes and clothes to the train ticket, because well you can’t exactly ride a train barefoot and in your undies. And all the food for the energy spend walking from station to station, can’t forget that.
Yes a decent car can cost between 5 - 10K used, but if you take care of it you will get most of that money back. And I’m not talking about SUVs or Pickup Trucks, but compact hatchbacks with 30mpg or 6-7L per 100km. The engines easily last 10+ years with regular but minor maintanace. 2000s Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas can easily outlast multiple generations of trains and busses.
My city has gone through 4 generations of bus fleets while my buddies dad still rocks a VW T4 camper probably on his 2nd milage gauge loop. We figured out how to make the perfect car in 1993 when McLaren build the F1. Nothing beats low weight and a reliable engine. The big mistake was letting heavy SUVs become the go to car for everybody. Historicaly speaking, it’s an overcorrection from the US being invaded by small cheap and reliable Japanese hatchbacks in the 90s. An that I itself was an overcorrection form gigantic 20 feet long cars from the 70s and 80s. SUVs and Pickup Trucks are like a fashion trend, they are not here to stay. Slick E-vehicles seem to be the newest trend, they just haven’t fully found the shape they want to be in yet.
From the point of physics, a train weighs hundreds of tons and is pulling another hundreds of tons of weight. A hatchback weight 1-2 tons. They work on the same principles. They need energy to accelerate their mass. Trains need to carry a lot of people to break even otherwise they are just pulling themselves for nothing. You should be uncomfortable having a whole cart to yourself. Sure a car might be 100 times lighter but the train can carry 200 times more people at max capacity. Max capacity being an important factor. Most trains travel way below that. Remove all the traffic lights and hills from a cars path and it will be just as efficient as a train. Trains are just really good mass haulers.
One of the major advantages that trains have over cars is their electric engine. Electric engines have an efficiency of roughly 80 - 90% for transferring energy into motion. Car engines only 20 - 40%. And combustion engine are at their economical limit. Putting electric engines in cars is putting them directly on par with trains.
Thats why we shift towards EVs, because we already have everything but the batteries and charging figured out anyway. Public transport is a political issue, EVs are an engineering and marketing issue.
Jeez I’m not reading all that. You have now twice tried to discount the cost of the vehicle. First you wanted to account only for gas. Second you wanted to call it “privilege”, yes you then broke it down for some reason but you want to call it a “privilege” and not account for its cost in the actual transportation.
Fair enough. I realize that I mixed up owning a car, and being able to afford one. I double checked, and, one can own a car in my country while having low or no income and live in subsidized housing. But the value of the car is limited to a certain amount. So I stand corrected, technically “No” owning a car is not a privilege but is considered a basic necessary by our government. But thats only the case if you start collecting financial aid and already have a car. You won’t be able to afford to buy one with the aid alone.
I was fortunate enough to have my parents pay upfront for my first car that I couldn’t afford while I was in college. I paid them back in full over 2 years and didn’t have to pay intrest to a bank. I call that privilege.
Groceries are solved by having smaller but more frequent supermarkets, I can walk to 3 different ones from my house including one that’s literally 2/3min walk away (and I live in the countryside), we go daily so we can just carry it back because it’s smaller groceries. If bigger, personal carts exist and are gaining popularity around here.
![[meme] Trains are 100000x easier to electrify and automate than cars, so why does everyone keep talking about electric and driverless cars?](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/11c37658-7c32-4cc2-b12c-6ced348bd09d.png){kind=link}
People do that all the time on transit, groceries are the biggest problem though.
You’re forgetting the cost of buying the vehicle, maintaining it, and perhaps parking it. You can’t leave those out and then say driving is cheaper.
I personally consider the price of the car as the privilege of ownership. Its not like you can change the color of the train if you don’t like it or throw you trash in the corner. If the train is to slow, you can’t put a turbo in it. Plus, you can always sell you car, but you can’t sell your used train tickets.
I’ve owned my car current car for roughly 4 years now. I got it used and it lost about -1,000€ in value. Maintance is incredibly low, roughly -300€ in total. Insurance was the big money drainer with about -2000€ in total, but I got in a couple of minor fender benders that weren’t my fault and only resulted in scratched plastic so I got a payout of about +1300€. So in total, if I were to sell it right now, my car my car cost me 500€ annually over the course of 4 years (fuel exluded). Thats a fair price for the freedom a car gives you.
But there are certain situation that essentialy prohibit using a car. Getting to the airport is far easier by bus (my city has a direct line) and you don’t have to pay for weeks of parking. Late night bus lines make going out to parties and clubs actually enjoyable, because you don’t have to leave your car in a shady part of town over night. Parking is another problem. The US feels like 80% parking space but Europe doesn’t have that. The biggest parking area in my city is basically right at the central bus hub. So it wouldn’t make any difference time wise to go by car. But thanks to 20 traffic lights, riding a bicycle doesn’t either.
Bicyles are like the best extension to public transit. And its highly undervalued. I’d rather have them reduce prices for train tickets that include a bike, than build more train lines. Currently they are nearly twice as expensive as normal tickets (because a bike takes up more space I guess).
You can sell it and then it’s called depreciation from use anyway. It’s cost of ownership. You can’t ignore it and say it’s cost of gas only.
I didn’t say it cost gas only. Quite the opposite, I ignored the gas cost and shown only my rough cost of ownership. It’s just the fact that the huge entry price of buying a car is put in parallel to low ticket prices, when really, it shouldn’t. Otherwise you could also add the cost of shoes and clothes to the train ticket, because well you can’t exactly ride a train barefoot and in your undies. And all the food for the energy spend walking from station to station, can’t forget that.
Yes a decent car can cost between 5 - 10K used, but if you take care of it you will get most of that money back. And I’m not talking about SUVs or Pickup Trucks, but compact hatchbacks with 30mpg or 6-7L per 100km. The engines easily last 10+ years with regular but minor maintanace. 2000s Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas can easily outlast multiple generations of trains and busses.
My city has gone through 4 generations of bus fleets while my buddies dad still rocks a VW T4 camper probably on his 2nd milage gauge loop. We figured out how to make the perfect car in 1993 when McLaren build the F1. Nothing beats low weight and a reliable engine. The big mistake was letting heavy SUVs become the go to car for everybody. Historicaly speaking, it’s an overcorrection from the US being invaded by small cheap and reliable Japanese hatchbacks in the 90s. An that I itself was an overcorrection form gigantic 20 feet long cars from the 70s and 80s. SUVs and Pickup Trucks are like a fashion trend, they are not here to stay. Slick E-vehicles seem to be the newest trend, they just haven’t fully found the shape they want to be in yet.
From the point of physics, a train weighs hundreds of tons and is pulling another hundreds of tons of weight. A hatchback weight 1-2 tons. They work on the same principles. They need energy to accelerate their mass. Trains need to carry a lot of people to break even otherwise they are just pulling themselves for nothing. You should be uncomfortable having a whole cart to yourself. Sure a car might be 100 times lighter but the train can carry 200 times more people at max capacity. Max capacity being an important factor. Most trains travel way below that. Remove all the traffic lights and hills from a cars path and it will be just as efficient as a train. Trains are just really good mass haulers.
One of the major advantages that trains have over cars is their electric engine. Electric engines have an efficiency of roughly 80 - 90% for transferring energy into motion. Car engines only 20 - 40%. And combustion engine are at their economical limit. Putting electric engines in cars is putting them directly on par with trains.
Thats why we shift towards EVs, because we already have everything but the batteries and charging figured out anyway. Public transport is a political issue, EVs are an engineering and marketing issue.
Jeez I’m not reading all that. You have now twice tried to discount the cost of the vehicle. First you wanted to account only for gas. Second you wanted to call it “privilege”, yes you then broke it down for some reason but you want to call it a “privilege” and not account for its cost in the actual transportation.
Fair enough. I realize that I mixed up owning a car, and being able to afford one. I double checked, and, one can own a car in my country while having low or no income and live in subsidized housing. But the value of the car is limited to a certain amount. So I stand corrected, technically “No” owning a car is not a privilege but is considered a basic necessary by our government. But thats only the case if you start collecting financial aid and already have a car. You won’t be able to afford to buy one with the aid alone.
I was fortunate enough to have my parents pay upfront for my first car that I couldn’t afford while I was in college. I paid them back in full over 2 years and didn’t have to pay intrest to a bank. I call that privilege.
Groceries are solved by having smaller but more frequent supermarkets, I can walk to 3 different ones from my house including one that’s literally 2/3min walk away (and I live in the countryside), we go daily so we can just carry it back because it’s smaller groceries. If bigger, personal carts exist and are gaining popularity around here.
I think grocery delivery is the more likely and better.
Yeah that would definitely be easier to implement in North America, due to the current layouts, I was talking about my own environment in Europe.
If that’s what already happens, then there’s no issue to be solved.