Being shunned in Amish culture is VERY aggressive. You’re basically cut off from the community and family. You can’t get rides, you have to eat alone, etc. It’s pretty fucked up.
Mormons also have versions of this that are notoriously fucked up. Stay in line or lose contact with everyone you love.
To be fair, some religions are much more aggressive about burning bridges than others. If I piss off my Catholic family, I just get passive aggressive quips from my mother in law at Christmas. I can still see my family, go home to my wife, and still work in the city they reside in.
A couple of decades ago I worked with an ex-mormon. Shunned by his family, his sister would still call to wish him merry Christmas etc… I remember overhearing one of those calls; “merry Christmas sis, and tell mom and dad I’m very glad I’m not there”.
I feel so sad for JW kids. Not only are they growing up in a cult where they might die if they need a blood transfusion, they don’t even get birthday parties or Christmas presents. The latter, especially if they go to public school as many do, must be really psychologically taxing on a small child when every other kid in school is having birthday parties and talking about what they got for Christmas. I got it a little bit because I’m Jewish and we didn’t celebrate Christmas, so I definitely felt like an outcast at times. But at least I got Hanukkah presents and birthday parties and no one told me the world was going to end any day now (well, maybe by the Soviets nuking us, but that was a different anxiety).
Yeah my best friend was JW and it messed him up a bit. He got out of the church as soon as he could manage. I don’t think it was terribly abusive or anything and there were some nice people in their church, but they were strict on the rules and shunning. His parents did sidestep the no Christmas/birthday restriction by celebrating their wedding anniversary and giving the kids presents on that occasion.
Technically all Christians have a version of this. Though even in “Bible Churches” it is usually tempered by the second bit below, and processes of repentance and whatnot.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
I Corinthians 5
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matthew 18
As an aside, that Corinthians bit spells it out in plain-ass English that any “Christian” screaming at non-Christians about being gay, trans, or whatever either do not know their Bible or only use it when it supports the actions they already want to take.
As a second aside, it is kind of funny what one still remembers even after being out of the church for a couple decades.
The Mormons do not “have versions of this.” Their official policy is quite the opposite. However, for many Mormons, their religion is their whole identity so when a family member chooses another lifestyle they are personally offended and can’t find any way to relate to them anymore.
This is absolutely not true. I know a parent who wasn’t allowed to go to their child’s wedding because the church wouldn’t allow her to after she left the church.
The church wedding for members of our church happens in a place we call temple. Temples are not our churches, they are a sacred place that only members in good standing are allowed to visit. This is not the place we meet at every week for our weekly church services.
So yeah, that parent would not be allowed to go to the temple, where the wedding ceremony happened. But that parent would not be excluded at all for the rest of the wedding and/or any other kind of communication with their child.
In the eyes of the church, someone who has been excommunicated has the exact same status as someone, who has never been part of the church.
It’s quite interesting to me, how many people believe they know more about the church than members of said church, because they know someone who knows someone who said a thing.
But I guess it’s not surprising, since also lots of people who never actually met a trans person strongly believe they really understand trans people and their supposed evil motivations.
Yeah it seems like everyone here has a perception of Mormons that is significantly more hard line than reality. The shunning they’re talking about is not part of official church policy, and speaking as an ex Mormon myself, nobody in my life cut contact when I left because there’s no doctrine that says they should. Indeed, official doctrine is that you should support that person no matter what with the hopes that they come back into the fold. Jehovah’s Witnesses, by contrast, DO have official policy for how everyone should cut contact when someone is disfellowshipped.
I have a long laundry list of gripes with the LDS church, but this particular issue isn’t one of them (at least from a policy and doctrine perspective). I will note, however, that in times where I have seen this shunning happen, it’s rarely due to the person who left putting strain on their relationships. Instead, it’s typically due to religious fanaticism on an individual level from the LDS people in their lives. That’s unfortunately not unusual for religions, though, and I don’t think Mormons are unique here.
Being shunned in Amish culture is VERY aggressive. You’re basically cut off from the community and family. You can’t get rides, you have to eat alone, etc. It’s pretty fucked up.
Mormons also have versions of this that are notoriously fucked up. Stay in line or lose contact with everyone you love.
(Comment by squaresinger removed by mod: “reason: Part of a white nationalist cult, defending said cult”. Comment summary: A Mormon clarifies that excommunication doesn’t ban attending church activities, but tensions arise when ex-members aggressively try to convert others away from the faith, citing their ex-Mormon returned missionary best friend as an example of someone who isnʼt hostile towards Mormon Church members.)
I also was raised in the Church, served a mission, but left (you can too)!, despite Church roadblocks. To illustrate why I left, let me provide you with what my self-righteous past self would have written for an audience of priesthood holders regarding the apostasy of a best friend:
Your best friend knew the truth, got their endowment, yet apostatized anyway. Better that your best friend had never been born (D&C 76:32). You shouldn’t associate with them because Satan will find a way to weaken your testimony through your sympathy for them. Instead, unfaithful such as your friend should be cast out from your community as salt that has lost its flavor (Matthew 5:14; see the 1838-06-17 Salt Sermon). Since they committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost, the best case scenario for building the Kingdom of God is that they don’t corrupt anyone else or die early (side note: killing an apostate in order to save their soul even from an Unpardonable Sin was a loophole called “Blood Atonement which was used by the Danites to justify murdering enemies of the Church; the idea being that Christ couldn’t spill their own blood to atone for someone who denied the Holy Ghost but someone could atone for their own sins by being their own blood sacrifice; the requirement to physically spill blood in order to effect the ritual is a plausible explanation for why Utah still permits capital punishment by firing squad). Better to dedicate your time and efforts towards sharing the Gospel with people who haven’t had a chance to properly hear it in this Second Estate than with someone who heard it, lived it, yet rejected it.
The above text would not be found out of place in a Sunday talk, especially one given by an Area Authority, although many in the congregation would likely feel uncomfortable. Church leadership would likely minimize such discomfort by restricting such fierce and arguably cruel teachings to private Priesthood Sessions of unbroadcasted Stake Conferences or missionary Zone Conferences. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I hope you reconsider your membership to an organization in which such cruel and inhumane talk is considered acceptable.
Edit(2023-10-10T20:05+00): Include context.
Edit(2023-10-10T20:13+00): Remove some context that was removed by mod. Summarize the offending comment for context.
Edit(2023-10-10T20:29+00): Add statement explaining the example of cult rhetoric is meant to explain the cruelty, not to promote it.
(Comment by squaresinger removed by mod: “reason: Part of a white nationalist cult, defending said cult”. Comment summary: A Mormon clarifies that excommunication doesn’t ban attending church activities, but tensions arise when ex-members aggressively try to convert others away from the faith, citing their ex-Mormon returned missionary best friend as an example of someone who isnʼt hostile towards Mormon Church members.)
Wow, these mods really hate members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our church is anything but white nationalistic. Most members of the Church live outside the United States and its leaders have repeatedly preached against racism and nationalism in recent years. I hope the mods educate themselves on this topic before further spreading their bigotry.
Being shunned in Amish culture is VERY aggressive. You’re basically cut off from the community and family. You can’t get rides, you have to eat alone, etc. It’s pretty fucked up.
Mormons also have versions of this that are notoriously fucked up. Stay in line or lose contact with everyone you love.
Yup. It sounds a lot like Scientology. Or pretty much every other cult/religion out there. LOL
If their way of life was so amazing, people would WANT to stay in it. Holding them hostage or else… just seems… less than ideal. 😵
Scientology literally has an illegal prison to throw you in.
I wonder if Shelly Miscavige is there?
Maybe her corpse…
To be fair, some religions are much more aggressive about burning bridges than others. If I piss off my Catholic family, I just get passive aggressive quips from my mother in law at Christmas. I can still see my family, go home to my wife, and still work in the city they reside in.
A couple of decades ago I worked with an ex-mormon. Shunned by his family, his sister would still call to wish him merry Christmas etc… I remember overhearing one of those calls; “merry Christmas sis, and tell mom and dad I’m very glad I’m not there”.
Jehovah’s Witnesses too.
Yeah I’ve heard with Jehovas Witnesses it’s extreme. I haven’t heard the same about Mormons actually.
I feel so sad for JW kids. Not only are they growing up in a cult where they might die if they need a blood transfusion, they don’t even get birthday parties or Christmas presents. The latter, especially if they go to public school as many do, must be really psychologically taxing on a small child when every other kid in school is having birthday parties and talking about what they got for Christmas. I got it a little bit because I’m Jewish and we didn’t celebrate Christmas, so I definitely felt like an outcast at times. But at least I got Hanukkah presents and birthday parties and no one told me the world was going to end any day now (well, maybe by the Soviets nuking us, but that was a different anxiety).
Yeah my best friend was JW and it messed him up a bit. He got out of the church as soon as he could manage. I don’t think it was terribly abusive or anything and there were some nice people in their church, but they were strict on the rules and shunning. His parents did sidestep the no Christmas/birthday restriction by celebrating their wedding anniversary and giving the kids presents on that occasion.
Technically all Christians have a version of this. Though even in “Bible Churches” it is usually tempered by the second bit below, and processes of repentance and whatnot.
I Corinthians 5
Matthew 18
As an aside, that Corinthians bit spells it out in plain-ass English that any “Christian” screaming at non-Christians about being gay, trans, or whatever either do not know their Bible or only use it when it supports the actions they already want to take.
As a second aside, it is kind of funny what one still remembers even after being out of the church for a couple decades.
Being unshunned and reshunned is even more aggressive. https://media.tenor.com/aLiqWMAiXScAAAAC/the-office-dwight-schrute.gif
The Mormons do not “have versions of this.” Their official policy is quite the opposite. However, for many Mormons, their religion is their whole identity so when a family member chooses another lifestyle they are personally offended and can’t find any way to relate to them anymore.
Removed by mod
This is absolutely not true. I know a parent who wasn’t allowed to go to their child’s wedding because the church wouldn’t allow her to after she left the church.
Nice misunderstanding of facts here.
The church wedding for members of our church happens in a place we call temple. Temples are not our churches, they are a sacred place that only members in good standing are allowed to visit. This is not the place we meet at every week for our weekly church services.
So yeah, that parent would not be allowed to go to the temple, where the wedding ceremony happened. But that parent would not be excluded at all for the rest of the wedding and/or any other kind of communication with their child.
In the eyes of the church, someone who has been excommunicated has the exact same status as someone, who has never been part of the church.
It’s quite interesting to me, how many people believe they know more about the church than members of said church, because they know someone who knows someone who said a thing.
But I guess it’s not surprising, since also lots of people who never actually met a trans person strongly believe they really understand trans people and their supposed evil motivations.
You’re in a cult. Dumbass. Fuck all your bullshit.
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!
This is how you know you’re the one inside the shitty cult…
Yeah it seems like everyone here has a perception of Mormons that is significantly more hard line than reality. The shunning they’re talking about is not part of official church policy, and speaking as an ex Mormon myself, nobody in my life cut contact when I left because there’s no doctrine that says they should. Indeed, official doctrine is that you should support that person no matter what with the hopes that they come back into the fold. Jehovah’s Witnesses, by contrast, DO have official policy for how everyone should cut contact when someone is disfellowshipped.
I have a long laundry list of gripes with the LDS church, but this particular issue isn’t one of them (at least from a policy and doctrine perspective). I will note, however, that in times where I have seen this shunning happen, it’s rarely due to the person who left putting strain on their relationships. Instead, it’s typically due to religious fanaticism on an individual level from the LDS people in their lives. That’s unfortunately not unusual for religions, though, and I don’t think Mormons are unique here.
I also was raised in the Church, served a mission, but left (you can too)!, despite Church roadblocks. To illustrate why I left, let me provide you with what my self-righteous past self would have written for an audience of priesthood holders regarding the apostasy of a best friend:
Your best friend knew the truth, got their endowment, yet apostatized anyway. Better that your best friend had never been born (D&C 76:32). You shouldn’t associate with them because Satan will find a way to weaken your testimony through your sympathy for them. Instead, unfaithful such as your friend should be cast out from your community as salt that has lost its flavor (Matthew 5:14; see the 1838-06-17 Salt Sermon). Since they committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost, the best case scenario for building the Kingdom of God is that they don’t corrupt anyone else or die early (side note: killing an apostate in order to save their soul even from an Unpardonable Sin was a loophole called “Blood Atonement which was used by the Danites to justify murdering enemies of the Church; the idea being that Christ couldn’t spill their own blood to atone for someone who denied the Holy Ghost but someone could atone for their own sins by being their own blood sacrifice; the requirement to physically spill blood in order to effect the ritual is a plausible explanation for why Utah still permits capital punishment by firing squad). Better to dedicate your time and efforts towards sharing the Gospel with people who haven’t had a chance to properly hear it in this Second Estate than with someone who heard it, lived it, yet rejected it.
The above text would not be found out of place in a Sunday talk, especially one given by an Area Authority, although many in the congregation would likely feel uncomfortable. Church leadership would likely minimize such discomfort by restricting such fierce and arguably cruel teachings to private Priesthood Sessions of unbroadcasted Stake Conferences or missionary Zone Conferences. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I hope you reconsider your membership to an organization in which such cruel and inhumane talk is considered acceptable.
Wow, these mods really hate members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our church is anything but white nationalistic. Most members of the Church live outside the United States and its leaders have repeatedly preached against racism and nationalism in recent years. I hope the mods educate themselves on this topic before further spreading their bigotry.