kbin.social will also be defederated from beehaw.org, sooner or later.
After all, it has open registration policy and many users too.Reading their rationale, yes, I think there’s a very good chance they’ll defederate kbin.social as well, sooner or later, regardless of how moderation here works.
#justfediversethings I guess.
Do you know where I can find their rationale - is it posted somewhere still accessible?
It’s literally linked at the top of this thread.
Duh. 😳
Is it possible for them to defederate from kbin completely?
Yes
Depends on what you mean by “kbin”, I guess. At least, assuming they don’t turn to using a whitelist.
Kbin.social, the website? Yeah, of course.
Kbin the software? No. They can’t just say “I don’t want to federated with kbin-based websites”.
Interesting. I support their right to make that decision and I’m glad that’s an option in the Fediverse. I’m not sure I’d want to see that change happening if I were a member of their instance (I haven’t spent enough time there to have an informed opinion about the alleged problems they cite in the post), but I suppose the strength of federation is that users can choose to move to another instance without necessarily losing access to Beehaw’s content. I wonder how this will play out among their userbase?
I’m a Beehaw member; also a kbin member, but I wasn’t able to get on here until tonight because it had been so laggy a few days ago that I’d given kbin up as unusable. To answer your question, I don’t like it but I do understand it. It sounds from what they’ve said that they basically had no choice; they were overwhelmed.
That said, I’m now VERY glad that I have a kbin account. I just re-created my subscription list (including magazines from both of the banned instances) here. I just hope kbin isn’t going to ban them too?
And just in case anyone is wondering: I expect to keep using both Beehaw and kbin (and my other Fediverse accounts, for that matter; I’m on Mastodon, BookWyrm, and Paper.wf). It’s nice to have a low-stress refuge like Beehaw sometimes But I want to be able to access the whole wide world when I choose, too!
I just hope kbin isn’t going to ban them too?
I think it’s more likely that beehaw.org is going to defederate kbin.social as well
I don’t give a week before bee defederate kbin.
If you don’t mind, would you explain why you have bookwyrm and paper.wf since you have mastodon?
What makes those different in your experience? (just looking them up didn’t give me much of a real feel.) I have mastodon and kbin right now since they’re both different.
I never really cottoned to Mastodon, possibly for the same reasons I never took to Twitter. Perhaps I’m just too much of a chatterbox to accept their post length limitations. 😆
Bookwyrm is outstanding for book reviews, and it allowed me to import the CSV of my reviews from GoodReads. If Mastodon can do that, I wasn’t aware of it.
Paper.wf was recommended to me as a Fediverse boxing site. Mastodon is too short-form for me. Beehaw doesn’t seem to have a personal blog as an option. BookWyrm, oddly enough, does - and I just discovered that I can see my BookWyrm blog (called “Direct Messages” there, which really doesn’t make sense) from kbin. I have no idea how that works, since my accounts are separate.
Paper.wf is elegant, but seemingly skimpy on features, though. Currently I can’t figure out how to find other blogs there or follow them, and as far as I can tell there’s no way for anybody to comment on blog entries there. If anyone wants to check out my blog there, here it is. Maybe you can tell me how to comment on entries!
It’s easiest to compared them to their non-fedi equivalents.
Twitter (Mastodon), Goodreads (Bookwyrm) and Medium (Write Freely) offer users different experiences, UI’s and tools.
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the admin here hasn’t made any mention of blocking instances. and something tells me he’s not interested in doing so. so for kbin’s side of things it’s probably fine. but we might get blocked by beehaw as well. I doubt kbin will block lemmy.world.
Most support it, although not all. They’ve been clear ask asking that they were trying to build a well-moderated space so it aligns With why most people are there - saw one person say that their first post had been hit by right-wing trolls from one of those instances, so if that’s happening then defederation makes sense.
Are Beehaw some sort of gatekeepers? I mean if you don’t want any interaction outside of your own instance at all because you can’t handle it, why even create an instance on an federated network?
They advertise themselves as a safe space.
being safe and being open are somewhat detrimental to each other.
They choose to be less open, to be more safe.Fine by me, but I’d expect them to turn into a LGBTQIA+ (is that the current one?) echo chamber before long.
And maybe I’ll be wrong, and that’ll be fine too.LGBTQIA+ (is that the current one?)
feeling edgy today are we
LGBTQIA+ (is that the current one?)
It’s somewhat ironic that this is just the sort of statement that beehaw admins are fed up of moderating away.
Yeah I’ve definitely noticed a running set of themes in the posts that are most critical of this move and it’s making me much more sympathetic to Beehaw’s decision.
Assholes don’t like being told they’re not invited to the party. And the reasons they’re not invited are… Well, things start to get recursive at this point.
Funny to me that people like you always complain about “safe spaces” in the same breath that you make it clear you can’t handle something as irrelevant to you as someone’s sexuality. That’s projecting fragility. These aren’t “safe spaces,” they’re just only allowing decent people who don’t flip their shit when they find out what two consenting adults want to do with their bodies.
I mean the description on join lemmy is “ Aspiring to be(e) a safe, friendly and diverse place.” So I think that counts?
That’s the beauty of the Fediverse - everyone gets to make the rules for their own instance, and you choose the instance you want.
There will be widely federated instances, entirely private instances (I’m looking at one for our work intranet) and everything in between.
It would be nicer if account migration were possible so hopefully that becomes a thing someday
It would suck having your account on an instance for 2+years then all of a sudden moderators change and you no longer agree with the instance, but are now stuck there and have to go by the decisions the new mods make or make a new account somewhere else.
Yup. On the todo list, believe. Mastodon handles it quite nicely now.
Servers defederating themselves from others with policies they don’t agree with is pretty common, especially if those policies are considered problematic. But I don’t know what to think about the fact I can’t see Beehaw mods specifying any particular instances of issues stemmed from users of those two severs, and it seems like the only criteria for defederating was the size of those two servers.
But I guess they have the freedom to make whatever rules they want for their own sever.
From what I have read it was about the difficulty moderating such a large userbase which is perfectly reasonable. The great thing about Lemmy is that anyone who disagrees can start their own server and run it however they want.
Yeah, I have no issues with how they choose to run their instance.
@LollerCorleone What I understood was that the moderation was difficult now, due not only to the size of the instances but also with the fact that almost all the people were new and the communities are not stable yet.
Since they have a quite high moderation standard, I guess that now, with few resources and a fast grow, it is difficult to keep it. And this standard is a commitment to the own community, people joint the instance because of it.
Another issue to take in account is that the moderation tools are not enough to handle with the problems of big and heterogeneous social networks. If I understood, in Lemmy and Kbin the only possibilities are to be federated or not, but not something in between like in Mastodon (the silence option).
some of the first posts i see on kbin from other instances are about a major defederation lol. not ideal since this is happening when the fediverse is growing… but I suppose this is the intent behind the fediverse.
this comment about it is great: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/22433/Beehaw-defederated-us#entry-comment-90015
"I think it’s easy to take this personally but I think it’s more about the moderation tools in Lemmy not being adequate at the moment so this is the best bandaid solution for now. We need to quickly put effort into developing better moderation tools like limiting other servers without fully defederating, limiting specific communities, forcing nsfw on communities/instances, proxying reports to origin servers so admins have better feedback on their instance user’s bad behavior, and many other things if we want to prevent defederating like this from being the only option.
I think infighting about this decision and differing moderation styles instead of focusing together on moderation challenges and tooling deficiencies risks tearing the community / federation apart and is counterproductive to the goal of being better than reddit."
there will be growing pains.
Nah, don’t worry about it, beehaw’s always been shit
Their stance on some things is maybe a bit too drastic for some, but they already have one of the largest communities for certain topics like gaming (at least last I checked), so we may lose out on the content that would help people stay long-term, which is sad.
People should stop looking at where the biggest community is. Are you an actor or a spectator? Start creating content in your own instance. This is what killed reddit, too much spectators, all sharing the same on-liner jokes. Do you have an interesting take about a videogame? Then share it. Write things down.
I did that on beehaw but got banned lol. I commented about my experience with someone calling me a british cigarette, but then got banned because I said it (even though it was on topic and the thread was asking about lgbtq experiences)
beehaw has banned 387 instances so far
We are next, just by the numbers already on kbin.
wouldn’t surprise me.
That is an ideal take, however what i think make large community and a upvote or downvote system like reddit interesting is that with volume, good idea and disccusion is more likely to occurs. why did we go to forum anyway. i think it is to find different opinion and interesting disccusion and what other think of our opinion. If we just want to share our own opinion or take on something, a blog would do better.
Good discussions don’t occur on huge subreddits.
no discussions occur on huge subreddits.
Discussions involve back-and-forths, and require the ability to actually focus on another person. There’s no focusing when there are 20,009 comments and everyone is just mindlessly scrolling past the top 200 before moving to another post.
Take it up with beehaw. There’s no convincing them. The beehaw admins have always been extremely toxic and corrupt.
“They have rules I don’t want to follow! That’s corruption!”
You realize that says way more about you than them, right?
What’s with you defending everything bit of criticism towards beehaw?
Regardless, no, Beehaw used to have a “No sources” rule that was established after users kept questioning the moderators there. I mean shit, their modlog is public, you can just look it up yourself.
If you are a subreddit drama enjoyer this exact sort of thing only adds more appeal to the fediverse.
Odd how the decentralized platform doesn’t scam well when you have centralized moderation.
/s
Uh… that’s unfortunate because many will just interpret it as federation being bad and will go back to reddit preaching against fedi.
That being said it could also be a reason for admins to have conversations about how to deal with these migrations and which moderation tools they need.
Uh… that’s unfortunate because many will just interpret it as federation being bad
IRC networks sometimes split. That didn’t mean that they didn’t generally stay together. Just that there were several major networks and a some isolated servers.
Usenet, as far as I know, generally remained one network, but occasionally saw Usenet Death Penalties.
XMPP supports federation, but organization, like businesses, exist that choose to use isolated XMPP servers.
This is where federation works anyway. Whoever comes here making posts from an account with more real life authority has a lot more to lose.
The trade off is some random exec could post here but since they are @exec that’s just them (obviously with a small grain of salt).
Federation just means that you can interact with as much or as little real life as you want. Some random Karen from Wichita, KS could call you weak on her fully fleshed out life story profile on some weird anonymous hamburger helper support group.
I think we do need to keep letting this play out though. It’s a very interesting experiment. There are definitely problems that need to be solved going forward but I think this place will be fine.
Yeah, it’s literally very early days. This is new, everyone here has just flooded in, and things need time to sort out and stabilise. There isn’t a “system” that works for everyone yet. We’ll see new instances getting popular, drama and controversy, and so forth. That’s normal on the internet.
I didn’t know about UDP xD
I remember being on Usenet but at the time I think the average user would have little to no knowledge on how the system worked. You just had to choose a server after reading a few guides and there was no rush.
I like how federation works but right now people come here with different expectations and when it occurs in waves I think it’s too stressful.
I personally don’t like this change because of how many people use the world instance but lemmy blew up less than a month ago
I would switch to kbin if they had an app
There’s a kbin app called “kmoon” in development.
And it’s accepting beta testers now
Is it downloadable?
Not at the moment. Sign up to be a tester and you may get access early
Found the link to Hariette’s post
https://kbin.social/m/kbin/p/433560/My-kbin-app-is-now-pulling-data-from-kbin-social-TookHere is the sign up link https://forms.gle/e24FMBvSdUUv5VmE6
Thanks, was just about to grab that
Have you tried it out just in the browser? Kbin’s mobile interface is pretty great. Also if you use Safari or Firefox you can very easily “install” the webpage as an “app”, or use something like Native Alpha to do the same thing (but I think most mobile browsers offer this feature.)
I mean, honestly, this sounds like a good thing, because the system works. Isn’t it kind of the point of the fediverse that if you don’t like someone else’s rules, you can do your own thing? They aren’t beholden to your rules, and you aren’t beholden to theirs either. That sounds to me like a great system where no one group of people or opinions can exert control over everyone else.
Bummer :( bad actors ruining it for everyone.
So what does this mean for lemmy.world users? Can we still seamlessly see beehaw communities but not post/comment?
As for beehaw users, I assume we and our communities simply do not exist, right?
we can still see and interact with both. Ernest has not defederated with them at this time so we should have few issues. As a community on this instance we need to use this platform in good faith to assure we arent banned/defederated with
When you say “we” do you mean lemmy.world folks? I see you’re from kbin 🤔 who is Ernest?
[email protected] is the creator of kbin and admin of kbin.social
And yes that user probably thought the comment above them was also on kbin
I think they meant kbin. We only just started seeing federated posting, so it’s catching lots of us by surprise when people are responding from, and about, other instances.
The others read it right. I thought you were from kbin when I commented. So yes now that beehaw split from lemmy.world you can’t see (or maybe it is just interacting with) any of their content from your current instance.
So I did some experimenting. Maybe the defederation hasn’t happened yet because I just commented on a post in beehaw’s technology community. I was also able to see beehaw posts in my search results and also requested to subscribe to one of their communities.
You can check the actual post on beehaw.org. Once the defederation happens, you will be able to post and think all is well, but it doesn’t actually leave your server.
Oh, well that’s not confusing at all haha
This is why we need instances to be displayed along the username lol
This is just amazing to see, this type of communication between users.
What bad actors? I didn’t see anything. I thought maybe it was a traffic thing?
The bullet points in beehaw’s announcement mention bad actors, trolls, and unvetted users.
is the sign up process on lemmy “unvetted”? can you just make an account? here you have to sign up with email and verify it within 1 hour or it won’t work until Ernest allows it lol
You could imagine people abusing unvetted sign ups to troll or whatever
I can’t speak for other instances, but Beehaw requires a convincing explanation of why you feel that you are right for Beehaw and Beehaw is right for you.
“convincing” is a stretch. I wrote like 2 fluff lines about nothing and they approved the account.
It’s kind of silly to think that a bunch of trolls couldn’t do the same and join the site very easily. They’re essentially trusting their users to pinky promise to tel the truth on the application lol.Even this requirement is enough to deter what I imagine is the vast amount of trolls. If people act up after being approved, they get banned.
Huh, interesting. Kbin.social just required an email confirmation.
So they’re manually approving each user at beehaw then? That explains why their communities seemed small. They’re managing ongoing mod work by having a much higher initial workload. Neat!
Depends on the instance, as far as I know. Some require a short written intro, some require email verification, some let you sign up without even an email.
how is it where your account was made at lemmy.world?
Just email verification. A troll can make a throwaway email, verify it, and they’re in.
And not only on lemmy.world, they can make a troll account wherever they want
The content of an instance is copied to another instance as soon as users request it and if both instances are federated
As for beehaw users, I assume we and our communities simply do not exist, right?
Don’t say “we”. We don’t know who you are unless we hover on your username and I guess mobile users cannot even do it anyway.
This is honestly the only major issue I have with the Fediverse. Most of my Reddit/social media posts are related to three or so niche interests. My first Mastodon account was on the central hub for one interest that later defederated with the central hub for another interest. Not being able to interact with 1/3rd of the people I want to interact with just defeats the whole point of joining these kinds of platforms. Moderators just carving out a chunk of the Fediverse for their users is just unacceptable.
Moderators just carving out a chunk of the Fediverse for their users is just unacceptable.
The Fediverse is made up of independent websites, and the people who operate those websites have freedom of association.
Full stop.
Right, but how is it any different than half the users on a subreddit leaving and starting their own? People will always get together in groups and will always naturally begin to despise one another for whatever reason.
It sucks, but it’s just the way it is. If people don’t want to interact with one another, there’s no point in forcing them to do so.
It’s different because if people leave and start a new subreddit, you can still visit, subscribe to, comment on, etc. that new subreddit.
everyone who signed up as smaller instances is laughing right now.
join
a
smaller
instance
I signed up for Lemmy.World because that was the only one open a few days ago. Does that mean I need to create a separate account on Beehaw to view their stuff now? Why does this stuff have to be so complicated? Is Lemmy actually a viable Reddit alternative or not?
from what I understand… each instance is like a country and the Beehaw government just banned passports to/from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. Citizens can hold dual citizenship but getting beehaw citizenship will have higher requirements. kbin is also open sign-up but not banned because it’s users are more chill for some reason.
yay, I’m chill! :)
Excellent analogy. I’m using this in the future.
You know how some subreddits would ban you if you posted in another one? That’s basically all this is. We’re on lemmy.world which is less guarded, so we’re lumped in with troublemakers.
Just like with reddit, the solution is to make a new account without affiliation to the defederated groups. There’s a bajillion smaller lemmys out there that will likely never get defederated, and it makes the most sense to have one of those be your home vs the largest instances, now that we can see this kind of problem will occur.
The beehaw admins have stated their hopeful end goal would be a federation whitelist, rather than the current blacklist format. So even if you were to make you own / join a smaller instance it seems like beehaw’s entire goal is to be walled off from most instances.
And in my opinion that’s fine, if you are a beehaw user and you disagree you can move to another place
Yeah, absolutely.
Like I said in another reply though, I just mostly feel bad for the tens of thousands of users who were inadvertently driven there by the site being near / at the top of the list of instances on the lemmy homepage, and now have to figure out if they need to make another account somewhere else.
But in reality it’s not like any of the majority of new users could possibly have so much of a “oh no all my posts!” moment if they really felt like they wanted to switch lol.
Not trying to argue with you as you are correct as far as i see it…
Having a whitelist federation List would be worse in my opinion cause it would effectively kill the whole “everyone can start his own small instance”. It would be a whole lot of work if every small instance has to get approval from the bigger instances to federate with them. And for the bigger instances to process all applications for federation.
No I completely agree, it’s entirely a weird and almost backwards move to be on a federated platform and then seemingly have your goals be at odds with the concept of federation with the majority of the platform.
And while I believe that, as an outside observer, it’s also important to realize that from the beehaw admin’s perspective they accidentally went from “dozens” to “tens of thousands” of users over the course of a few days.
At the end of the day it’s their site and they can do with it as they please, but I feel bad for all the users who were inadvertently guided there by the lemmy homepage listing them at the top, only to be at this weird crossroads now.
That is a very good point. I’m such a situation the only two choices are to make their community your home and okay by their rules (what many of us just left Reddit over) or ignore it and interact with the content and communities you can.
okay by their rules (what many of us just left Reddit over)
People are leaving Reddit over their moderation rules? I thought the CEO did something with the API.
But I mean, yeah, people who have compatible instance rules will federate and the people on those instances will have agreed to those rules. I think you might be overestimating how restrictive typical rules are, unless you think transphobia being called “not okay” is too restrictive.
redditors have been sick of reddit for ages and have been looking for an excuse to leave. this api drama is the excuse.
People are leaving Reddit over their moderation rules? I thought the CEO did something with the API.
I think it’s fair to consider the Reddit admins making unilateral decisions that drastically alter how users can use the platform as “their rules”.
I meant that people are leaving Reddit over Reddit pulling up the walls around them and restricting who and how you can interact with their content.
Sounds like a good strategy!
Okay this is what I’ve gathered so far, someone please correct me, Lemmy is one type of instance on the fediverse when they were federated with beehaw they would see beehaw posts and vice versa. This is no longer the case, as far as I understand it you can still go to beehaw and create an account to browse it but you won’t have access from your Lemmy account. IMHO this makes sense to me, it’s like an entire sub going private.
Beehaw is an instance of Lemmy with a bunch of subs inside it. So it’s not like a sub going silent. It’s a big chunk of the Lemmy user base and their subs being cut off from a couple other large chunks of the user base and their subs (and vice versa), if I understand correctly.
Sorry I should’ve clarified, but that was the closest equivalent to reddit I thought of.
Sounds about right
Just to clarify, Lemmy is the software that the servers are running. People will call a server running Lemmy an “instance” of Lemmy. You can create an account on any instance but you’re bound by the rules of that instance’s admins and mods.
Does that mean I need to create a separate account on Beehaw to view their stuff now?
If you’re subscribed to any communities on @beehaw.org, then yes. After defederation, none of the new content from there will appear on your lemmy.world account and vice versa - people at @beehaw.org won’t see your posts on lemmy.world.
Why does this stuff have to be so complicated?
This is how fediverse works. There’s no “central place”, there’s currently 333 Lemmy servers. Each of them is free to take their own decisions regarding moderation and who they want to exchange content with. I know it probably feels complicated compared to centralized approach, but that’s the core of these federated services. It’s not different from Reddit subs banning users for posting in other subs.
Is Lemmy actually a viable Reddit alternative or not?
I guess time will tell, but if the Twitter meltdown-migration is a reference, then no - majority of people will go back to Reddit after the blackouts are over (I guess today).
This will never be Reddit, and that’s good because as you can see Reddit fucks up bad.
I could ask similar questions to reddit admins/ceo.Why are you killing the app I use to browse reddit?
Why do I have to install a different app that’s slower and riddled with ads?
Why are you making this change that I don’t like?
You could sign up with a smaller one that federated with all three.
It does. But just don’t bother.
Beehaw will die off now that it’s walled itself off, and replacement communities in the rest of the fediverse will replace it.
The system is built to be resilient to stuff like this.
That is the way I look at it too. Beehaw has decided to withdraw from the main network and slowly become just a small local bbs.
Reading that announcement felt like the beginning of Mortal Engines when the small cities started rapiding from London.
If they block kbin.social, will kbin.social users still be able to read posts on beehaw but not post or interact with them?
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