- cross-posted to:
- politics@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- politics@sh.itjust.works
Illustration by M.J. Hiblen
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Really good. Artist credit please.
apologies, got distracted:
Illustration by M.J. Hiblen
good stuff.
Generate a picture of a shockingly expensive hospital bill being shown to a sick woman wrapped in an American flag, who gets a heart attack and dies
Is the hospital bill wrapped in the flag or the woman?
The flag is having a heart attack obviously.
America was born dead in the way these “ideals” never existed at all.
You’re wrong… The ideals are great. The reality is what isn’t…
The ideals of… slaughter? Or those that everyone is a billionaire just not right now so every law should be anti poor? The ideals of not helping sick? Or no you must mean the ideals of freeeedooom yes ah that you are free to be hunted unless you are, literally are a multinational corporation
When’s the last time you read the definition of ideal? In real life they are targets, goals you’ll never achieve.
The founding ideal of the United States is unlimited “westward expansion” (complete exploitation of the land and the genocide of indigenous people). The United States has been incredibly effective at achieving this. This is not a fringe interpretation of history, it is relayed in the first episode of the PBS Revolutionary War documentary that came out last year.
“Freedom, equality, and liberty” or whatever may be your values, but in practice they never were intended for people who weren’t part of the white, christian, landowning male class who founded the United States.
Show me an nation that does not have this dark history. Acknowledge it and aim to do better. That’s all anyone can do.
- Haiti
- Vietnam
- Ghana
- Bolivia
- Fiji
“Acknowledge and move on” is an extremely bad take if you know the facts about the genocide of American Indians (and Canadian First Nations) and how it is essentially ongoing in 2026. “Dark past” is not an accurate view of the situation. It is also unique to being a settler-colonial project, not something that is common to all countries.
It leads to an extremely unstable state as we can see from the three most recent presidential elections. The state wants to colonize itself because it ran out of other countries to exploit. That’s what fascism is (ice raids and shit being a prominent symptom).
Changing my words to make me look worse. I’m officially done with this.
“dark past” boy the present is pitch motherfucking black, it’s been non fucking stop killing
Stop pretending
But who has him?
An uncomplicated read: The ideals of Pretti (aiding others, sacrifice, anti-fascism) will uplift the sick and dying ideals of America (democracy, anti-fascism.)
We do. You and I. We can do this.
The wisdom of crowds is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds?wprov=sfla1
Normally you avoid the craziest people (far right and far left) because they have mental issues.
Fast forward to today. The foreign actors give a loudspeaker and an army of sock puppet bots with the messages core to the far right and the far left. Voting and culture and consensus is dysfunctional as we try to recover the culture.
Propagandists try to make the center feel isolated.
Hey, here’s a question: what mental disorders are you talking about? Because I have a feeling that anyone claiming to talk for the center is not from the center.
Paranoia “the immigrants are out to get me” or “the government is out to get me”. There is some evidence of each but generally this info comes from people suffering from paranoia. If consensus reaches that indeed the government is wiretapping and such then in a functioning society the voters will educate and push for the reforms… and society isnt functioning currently.
In local areas it is water rights. Internationally it is i need to start a war to prevent war. There are so many out-there ideas that are tried on like clothes in any context.
Consensus… Wtf? Reality isn’t consensus-based. If the government is wiretapping and no one knows… Then is that supposed to be fine or what are you talking about? What a bizarre sentiment.
And why is society not functioning correctly? Because it feels like the far right and far left have answers for that. Is being in the center not having answers or is it combining those answers?
Everything you are saying is so weird.
I was saying that the wisdom of crowds is the source of a lot of the genius of our republic. And I was saying that the wisdom currently isnt there with examples. Sorry that I didnt make sense there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds?wprov=sfla1
There is some evidence of each
No there isn’t. Show me evidence that “immigrants are out to get you” in the US.
My wages are suppressed due to the union being busted/weakened due to the prevalence of illegal immigrants in my industry. The illegals are not building the community, they are building their community. I more blame the billionaires for creating conditions for this, but many of my coworkers are very racist and feel like it is justified.
The illegals are not building the community, they are building their community.
ME ME ME ME ME
racist and feel like it is justified.
Yeah centrist my ass. You had a purpose pretending in 2016, why don’t you just go put on your mask and breaking into your neighbors homes already since it aint your white community.
The first assumption in every social contract is self-interest. The second is that putting forth effort is adverse (you don’t like it). The rest of the social contract is normally about how to get effort with a mix of motivations that start with self interest. Altruism is not the basis of a social contract. When you started with “ME ME ME ME ME”, I think you were mocking the rational thought of individuals in a community. I’m not saying you are wrong, but the act of mocking is the very divisive behavior that I wish never became the primary way of communicating about political issues.
If a person is surrounded by racists and is raised by rascists then decides to be less racist when they leave the community they grew up in, does that make the person who is objectively at least somewhat racist not worth anything? I feel like you are trying to dismiss me and where-I-am-at out of hand because my current industry and community is leaning racist. I think you have specifically called me “purposely pretending” and really a kkk member at home? No to all of the above, and I think you are being really divisive as you do it. This pattern of behavior (mocking, divisive, and dismissive of nuance and context) is why we cannot have “wisdom of crowds” because there are no “third places” where a rational discussion about needs, perspectives, and solutions can be had.
People are less antagonistic if we could gather “freedom of assembly” and not get doxxed. I am currently building a community as best as i can. I also respect anyone who “votes with their feet” by moving from a bad spot into a better spot (some of the illegals I have met seem to be hardworking and just trying to give their family a better life). The more information i give, the more likely you or someone else will doxx me, so ill leave it at that. I do lean toward “privacy is a key ingredient to free speech”.
Good day.
Why dont you follow some of the scriptures you tout? Maybe there’s something you’ve missed.
If consensus reaches that indeed the government is wiretapping and such then in a functioning society the voters will educate and push for the reforms… and society isnt functioning currently.
The government is wiretapping. This isn’t paranoia, it’s a fact. In the Bush years, there was some controversy because they started doing it without a warrant, just bulk collection of data on everyone, with no evidence of wrongdoing. Then Obama got in, said he’d change things, then kept using those same tools, and when it came to light thanks to Edward Snowden, rather than the people responsible being held criminally liable, Snowden was hunted to the ends of the earth for revealing these crimes.
I’m afraid you’re several decades out of time. If you said that the government was wiretapping and spying on you in the 90’s, people would say you’re paranoid and might put you away. If you say it today, the response is, “Duh, who cares?” It’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
Internationally it is i need to start a war to prevent war.
Welcome to the extreme left, then. Because at least in the US, this is something that has near universal agreement across both major parties and nearly every politician.
Okay, so I was trying to make the point that wisdom of crowds was what I think is the missing sauce to the current political discourse. I know the government is wiretapping, you know the government is wiretapping, we both know it is an issue and bad, but the communities that vote currently do not and whenever a movement comes that starts moving that way, the movement gets scattered via every way imaginable (lawyers, FCC confusing net neutrality with net neutrality, patriots have nothing to hide, and Google’s “we collect but we have no plans to use it, yet besides we don’t do evil, yet”). Therefore as an example of “something that is bad that is not remediated because there is not a functioning society”, wiretapping serves as a perfect example. I really wish that we had more digital protections where I live.
I agree that there are different periods of time that have different “center” defining political action. If i were magically transported into the 90s then i would be a radical leftist. If I were here and now, i would say that i am left leaning in most areas, but the jury is out how to get the best result while applying (e.g. UBI, Net worth taxes, antitrust laws, long term cohesive plans against multi decade centers of power (China, Russia, Oligarchs in the USA) when the USA political cycle can be busted in an election cycle or two and some advertising spending, long term plans regarding energy when multi decade centers of power (Oil Oligarchs and coal lobbies) can overturn in an election cycle or two, etc.
Every single person on the planet was born to a place with a history and a family with a history. The USA did/does bad stuff to acquire power then grows a conscience and forces other nations to abide (perhaps to maintain their position of power). All growing up I had the USA portrayed as the “White Knight” who was protecting & allowing the world to grow while the bad guys were kept in check. I really don’t know exactly all the nuances of the last 50 years and requiring me to do the research to do my civic duty is an extra uphill battle right now (also I don’t like doing it, so i would prefer not to do it. I get depressed and paranoid the more i do it.) Right now I have to choose someone to trust regarding news before I form an opinion and vote. I really wish there was someone to “cheat off of” who was a news buff who wasn’t infected by the “all or nothing” mentality that seems to pervade everywhere. I wish that all the people in congress (republican and democrat) crossed the aisle on every 3rd issue based on what would actually be good for constituents. The amount of crossing the aisle has decreased with each election cycle.
Regarding starting a war to prevent war is a story of geometric progression aka exponential growth. Tesla ignored/laughed China’s BYD from 10 years ago, and BYD is now eating Tesla’s proverbial lunch in the luxury electric car sector. I was not trying to say it as an example that would make this seem like an extreme idea. This is just an idea that is applied throughout nature and human interaction throughout all ideas (from water rights to food security to economic wars (tarrifs/sanctions) to boots on the ground wars). Sorry that it seemed like I was going toward an “extreme” right or “extreme” left with that.
whenever a movement comes that starts moving that way, the movement gets scattered via every way imaginable (lawyers, FCC confusing net neutrality with net neutrality, patriots have nothing to hide, and Google’s “we collect but we have no plans to use it, yet besides we don’t do evil, yet”). Therefore as an example of “something that is bad that is not remediated because there is not a functioning society”
More specifically, it’s subverted by the rich and powerful. Which they are able to do as a natural consequence of the capitalist system in which we live. The only way to stop them from doing that sort of thing, of achieving a functional society, is to radically change things such that the upper class either no longer exists, or has a very limited ability to exert influence over government policy and public opinion.
The USA did/does bad stuff to acquire power then grows a conscience and forces other nations to abide (perhaps to maintain their position of power). All growing up I had the USA portrayed as the “White Knight” who was protecting & allowing the world to grow while the bad guys were kept in check.
That’s just propaganda and myth. The US went into Iraq and Afghanistan because of the material interests of the rich. Note that they have not invaded, or even stopped giving weapons to countries with atrocious human rights like Saudi Arabia or Israel. US foreign policy has always been about imperialism, it’s just more mask-off now than it has been.
I wish that all the people in congress (republican and democrat) crossed the aisle on every 3rd issue based on what would actually be good for constituents.
You know who loved crossing the aisle? Barack Obama. He ran as much more progressive than he actually governed, he bent over backwards to work with the Republicans even when the Democrats had a trifecta in government. And what did that get him? Complete stonewalling, vitriol, and hatred.
The mentality of the right today, this total unwillingness to compromise, has been seen before in history. It was the same mentality that they had in the Antebellum period regarding slavery. It was the mentality of Hitler, refusing to be satisfied even after taking Austria and Czechoslovakia. Each time, there has only been one way for that mentality to be changed, and that is by stomping it into the dirt and crushing it by force of arms. The right will simply keep going, and every concession will be percieved as a sign of weakness, up until reality smacks them down in one form or another. Hopefully, that will happen before it reaches the scale of global thermonuclear war.
How many times we have to try and fail to accomplish anything with this centrist, compromising approach, before you’re willing to consider the fact that it doesn’t work if the other side is stonewalling?
I hate that you are right.
There is a quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” i think by upton sinclair. The rich have motivated blindness toward the harms to society to increase their riches. I wonder how much motivated blindness from the common man we will get if we get another depression.
I understood it was propaganda when it first came out. I just ate it because “we are at war, so we need to support our leaders”… and the war dragged out long past the elimination of Saddam and Bin Laden. I am more jaded now… and i followed enough of the Ukrainian war to be able to tell propaganda better (but i am still susceptible to it dammit).
Obama was great. I didn’t have anything specifically against him. I did hate that he expanded the power of the executive branch such that we now have a rule of the executive branch instead of rule of checks and balances. Trump and Biden and Trump have all taken that further. (DOGE got its first legitimacy from Obama precedents, the slew of executive orders really took off during Obama, etc.).
Another comment asked me to pull up a bunch of scriptures, so scriptures are on my brain. here is a scripture that i think is true. it is about “when do you go to war and have god fight your battles for you”. It is from the Mormon Prophets, but I can’t find any contrary evidence against it in the bible and after praying about it, it seems true:
- D&C 98:23-32 for when you are an individual against an adversary and
- D&C 98:33-38 when you are a nation against another nation.
I hope it doesn’t come to that. I have worried since i have known about the national debt about when it will be due to be paid. A little debt is enough to get your neighbors invest in you, a lot of debt must be paid in either blood or cash. I am worried that you are right on all counts.
