Despite how a lady at the bookstore “struggled with” my pronouns and bounced off “he” several times before settling on “they” cause apparently she couldn’t bring herself to say “she.”
Shit’s hard out there.
slightly unethical (maybe?) life pro tip: it’s not illegal to lie
as long as you’re not going to use the bathroom in a red state or doing legal work, you can just say you’re cis and have POCS and act like it’s REALLY rude for them to say that. maybe even throw in a “from a woman too. Damn thought you’d understand our struggles” or something like that
I mean… some people just suck?
I’m extra sad to hear this happened at a bookstore. Besides a couple struggling B&Ns every bookstore around here is independent and either trans-owned or aggressively trans-friendly. Bookstores and libraries should be the ultimate safe spaces.
Yeah, it was a tiny little (adorable) bookstore in Cloverdale, out in the middle of nowhere. :(
It really do be like that.
People really out here thinking they have the authority to decide who we are. Like, sometimes it’s just a slip, like, it’s not what they’re expecting and they have to remind them selves, but, like, sometimes, it feels like they’re trying negotiate, walk us back.
“Oh you haven’t earned that. You haven’t put enough effort in to claim that. You’re not really that because I don’t feel like it.”
sometimes it’s absolutely intentional, and it hurts, like, I’m not asking you for anything, I’m telling you who I feel like I am, I’m trying my best to preform with what I have, and you’re rejecting that because apparently my feelings don’t matter, but you hang ups do.
That’s just fucked up. Some people are total garbage, I’m sorry you had to experience that
sorry you had to deal with that, some people are just the pits
Hey now, don’t do pits dirty like that, they’re really good at storing dead transphobes!
It does seem like cis people have a particular way of “seeing” gender, and it’s hard when the body or gender presentation you have conflicts with what you want people to see.
I’m rather conformist, it’s very important to me to do everything I can to make my body and gender presentation match what people expect from a woman, so they see a woman. I don’t really expect the average person to see a woman if I don’t look like one, and I feel really awkward expecting them to think of me as and see me as a woman when I don’t appear as one.
That said, I understand the frustration, esp. if you provide pronouns and the other person doesn’t make an effort to respect them - at best it seems impolite and rude, at worst it seems hostile and violent.
I really hated early in transition the way I went from tolerating the wrong pronouns (in pre-transition) to feeling like no pronouns worked for me - if someone used my “preferred” pronouns (she/her) it felt like they were just being polite. (I wanted to be a woman, not be coddled in my delusions and politely referred to as a woman while nobody actually sees me as a woman.)
On the other hand, if someone used a different pronoun it felt like they were being either impolite, forgetful, or outright hostile. Before transition it was easier to just swallow the he/him and remain under the cover of being “normal” - but after transition it was like I “ruined” my gender and my gender was never “right”, and no pronoun felt safe or appropriate.
After a year and a half of estrogen injections, my body has changed enough to fit within cis standards for a woman, even though I can’t see it myself. The estrogen, and of course all the immense amount of work I have put into trying to pass (voice therapy, skin care routine, diet, exercise, education on fashion and makeup, etc.).
It feels weird now, like I’m no longer “trans” in the same way because I am gender conforming enough now. So instead of being overtly trans, my transness is a hidden flaw in my gender, something only a small number of people can see (usually only other trans people), and which is lying there waiting to undermine my womanhood for anyone who notices.
I don’t know what your gender goals are, but I really feel for non-binary folks whose gender expressions fall outside of what is commonly accepted, it is just so hard to get “seen” correctly by people when you are trans.
As a trans guy who is sort of non-binary as a shorthand explanation and mental crutch for a complicated resting state of not physically transitioning because of my long-term partner’s phenotype preferences I feel this so hard. My physical body does not sort easily into people’s gender code. I ended up going with they/them pronouns more as a defensive move.
In my case it’s the daily sacrifice in the name of love but fuck if it doesn’t destroy my confidence regularly and feel like a fey curse.
Just a gentle suggestion that not physically transitioning for your partner’s preferences is probably not healthy or OK, I know it’s difficult and you have to figure that out yourself - but I encourage you to seek counseling and find a way to help your partner see that being trans is a genetic and medical condition that for your health and well-being you really shouldn’t ignore and forego treatment on, esp. for something like their preferences. Not all trans experience is the same, but it’s probable that medical transition would significantly improve your life.
Also, I hear you re non-binary and they/them being used to just make it “easier” or more understandable for people, which is so ironic considering it sounds like you would be able to conform to people’s gender expectations and a binary model better if you were free to …
Either way, I’m sorry for your situation, that’s rough 🫂
Just a gentle suggestion that not physically transitioning for your partner’s preferences is probably not healthy or OK, I know it’s difficult and you have to figure that out yourself - but I encourage you to seek counseling and find a way to help your partner see that being trans is a genetic and medical condition that for your health and well-being you really shouldn’t ignore and forego treatment on, esp. for something like their preferences. Not all trans experience is the same, but it’s probable that medical transition would significantly improve your life.
In the nicest possible way - don’t. This is not your call and this is not good advice. The relationship is 16 years old and a been a constant sense of comfort through a number of life’s traumas and bumpy roads. I would happily take a bullet for him any day of the week and my choices are not founded on nothing. He can’t help having a phenotype preference any more than I can and the decision I made was in regards to a wholistic assessment of what my values are. He is very aware of the nature of transness and your assumption that what works for you is the best path forward is not welcome.
I accept the conditions under which I live as imperfect but preferrable by far then losing a partner with whom I share my burdens.
Yes, of course you’re right that this is not my call.
I am aggressively in favor of medical transition in these contexts not because I dogmatically believe it’s the best for everyone (I know for a fact it won’t be - there are plenty of trans people who respond poorly to HRT, for example), but because so many people who would benefit and arguably need gender-affirming care do not seek it for various reasons that we would never consider reasonable for any other medical condition. I believe it’s our culture’s anti-trans bias that makes it so easy for trans folks to sacrifice their well-being and delay or refuse treatment.
On an epidemiological level I think this results in worse outcomes and great harm & cost for society (suicides, drug abuse, etc.). So on principle it seems like good clinical advice to suggest people with gender dysphoria take it seriously and get treatment. That doesn’t mean it’s simple or that you as an individual are absolutely compelled to follow that clinical advice, esp. when the costs are so high.
That said, I respect your boundary and don’t feel the need to convince you, as I said it’s something you have to figure out for yourself, and I have already admitted it’s not always the best path in the end.
Sorry for over-stepping and creating stress, you shouldn’t have to set that boundary with me and I need to think more on how to best approach providing a different perspective without coming across as too prescriptive.
I appreciate the apology. As a suggestion it’s best to ask clarifying questions before handing down judgements about what counts as healthy for someone or offering advice. As a long term non-medically transitioning person I receive a lot of unsolicited advice about how to live my life from people whose circumstances are much more clear cut. It comes across often as quite condescending when someone extrapolates from a very small snippet of personal information that mine were not carefully thought out and reasoned choices that are made daily.
The choice to transition medically isn’t a simple medical question and in my mind should not be out of hand treated as if it were a straightforward form of medical treatment to restore function. The question we should be asking ourselves is always “are the decisions I am making wholistic towards the outcome of making my life the best it can be.” For a lot of people the decision to medically transition is a no brainer, there is nothing keeping you but for some it comes with a slew of either/or sacrifices that impact other valuable aspects of the human experience. For some of us there isn’t a good solution without pain of some kind and the only choice we can make is what is preferable to endure. The reasons other people have to make are their own to make and not seeking “treatment” is not a metric of whether they take their situation “seriously”.
There is a very big difference between how people carry pain endured for little to no reason versus pain that is the willing price paid for something cherished.
I appreciate the apology.
Of course, I’m sorry - I want to keep things wholesome. ❤️
As a suggestion it’s best to ask clarifying questions before handing down judgements about what counts as healthy for someone or offering advice.
That’s a good idea, leading up to it rather than starting with it.
As a long term non-medically transitioning person I receive a lot of unsolicited advice about how to live my life from people whose circumstances are much more clear cut.
That makes sense. I’ve heard similar stories about how binary trans people will tell non-binary folks about how they might not be non-binary, etc. - there is a lack of awareness of how many of these conversations you are having to field with others.
It comes across often as quite condescending when someone extrapolates from a very small snippet of personal information that mine were not carefully thought out and reasoned choices that are made daily.
To be clear, I didn’t mean to imply you weren’t carefully reasoning or thinking through your decision … rather, my perspective is that any person that asks their partner to not medically transition because of their phenotype preferences doesn’t have their partner’s well-being as their priority. It comes across as a red flag to me, and I can’t see a way it can be justified.
If I put myself in the shoes of the person whose partner is transitioning, I can’t imagine ever feeling right asking the person not to transition. I can imagine the pain and grief of losing that relationship, or even sacrificing and staying in the relationship for the person even if it means losing that part of the relationship, but I can’t imagine asking them to not transition, or even without asking, being part of the reason that person doesn’t transition.
The question we should be asking ourselves is always “are the decisions I am making wholistic towards the outcome of making my life the best it can be.”
I would have never transitioned if I followed this logic, tbh. I underestimated and fundamentally did not understand the significance of HRT to my health and well-being until after. Now I balk at how I used to live, I don’t know how I survived.
For a lot of people the decision to medically transition is a no brainer, there is nothing keeping you but for some it comes with a slew of either/or sacrifices that impact other valuable aspects of the human experience.
Hmm, this is surprising to me - I am not sure I know anybody where transitioning was a no-brainer. Transitioning is usually an extremely difficult decision to make even with ideal circumstances. Many people lose their jobs (most trans people I know IRL lost their jobs when they transitioned). Many lose their family, their spouse, and face a long, painful, and expensive transition process without adequate support. We also live in a context where transitioning is subject to political scapegoating and persecution.
I consider my own transition conditions extremely ideal, and even so I rationalized myself out of transitioning for years to protect other people in my life, and in the end I did lose family due to transition.
For some of us there isn’t a good solution without pain of some kind and the only choice we can make is what is preferable to endure. The reasons other people have to make are their own to make and not seeking “treatment” is not a metric of whether they take their situation “seriously”.
It never seemed to me like you weren’t taking transition seriously or you weren’t putting thought into your decision. Usually, actually, I think people who don’t transition as a sacrifice for people in their lives are doing the opposite - they put a lot of thought into it, and usually they are making the difficult choice to prioritize others. This is not a bad thing in itself, I think the opposite mindset (not considering the impact on others) would be disturbing and would come across as immature. No, you strike me as mature and like someone making difficult sacrifices for someone you love.
There is a very big difference between how people carry pain endured for little to no reason versus pain that is the willing price paid for something cherished.
I feel quite emotional reading your message. It reminds me of a part of Little Fish by Casey Plett where an older Mennonite woman turns out to have been a closeted lesbian her whole life but who stayed straight out of religious devotion, and when confronted by a trans woman about her sexuality, she says:
“You have no excuse,” Anna cut her off. “The choices you have made in life. All of you people. None of you are lazy. None of you are stupid. There is much you could have weathered. But you don’t believe in yourself. And you’re not sorry. I can tell right now: You are not sorry. You learn faith. Tulip. Marvin. Whatever you want to call it. God’s fire is pure. You may have thought you needed to be a woman or die. Have you any idea what you can manage? You think you’re weak. And because you think you’re weak, you can’t actually do anything. So you choose the easy, selfish path. Now, I’m telling you that.”
You’re not doing it for religion, but out of love for your partner. But you are not weak, it takes strength.
People make sacrifices in their lives, and it takes that strength to do so. To come out of the closet or to transition can really seem selfish. At least I always thought of transition that way, as selfish. I held on to that responsibility for a long time.
It was only when I learned that by not transitioning that I was hurting the people in my life that the logic reversed, and I realized I had a responsibility to transition. Yes, for my well-being - but I didn’t care as much about that as for the well-being of others in my life who were suffering because of me.
My experience is probably not relevant to you (even if it’s not surprising when other trans people do have similarities anyway). Regardless, I respect and understand your choice, I made the same choice for over a decade. I would still be making that choice, if not for a very particular set of circumstances that happened to me.
I wish you the best. Thank you for being so patient with me as I stumble and fail to handle this well. You’re really kind. ❤️
There is again quite an assumption here mainly that my partner somehow asked me to not transition, that again I am somehow being coerced to stay by a domineering voice.
This was a discussion, a frank one, where I clarified with him what the potential outcomes of a medical transition were in terms of our relationship and decided on my own. It was not something he was comfortable asking me to do on his behalf and even after making my decision he took some time to feel comfortable on his end with it because his concerns and lack of self confidence of being “worth it”. People have approached him in the past with the attitude that he’s doing me a disservice and it ruins him for at least a week.
You are also conflating my comment about medical transitioning being a no brainer with transitioning itself. I have still transitioned socially and have been impacted in losing career advantages, family and friends for my choices. All transitions carry risks regardless of the medical component and when you frame it in this way where it focuses on medical transition as the majority of the risk or defining portion of transistion it implies that non-medical transition doesn’t count as transition. Any transition should be approached as potentially having serious reprocussions. In many cases of my friends who have medically transitioned the decision to medically transition was ultimately a lot less difficult than the decision to socially transition because by the time they got there they’d already experienced bigotry and yes, their lives have gotten markedly better since… But they also do not pity me and that is the tone of what you give off here (particularly in quoting a book about a womam dealing with religious trauma and internalized homophobia) the sense that you aren’t simply empathizing or sympathizing with the aspects of my choices which are difficult but that you veiw those choices as harmful or misguided.
I am glad that you found happiness and comfort in your transistion. It’s obviously a great fit. Maybe rethink your approach to non-binary folx as it seems like you bring a little overmuch of your personal baggage with you.
feel like a fey curse
Hm, we feel that us fey would not do such a thing. However, if it is as such we would gladly undo it for you.
A shiny rock or two would be payment enough.
I’m eleven years deep into HRT. I try my best to present binary female, but some sort of quantity prevents even my fellow trans people from giving me anything other than he/him without incessant prompting.
I have a call center job and I know my voice passes just fine. It’s probably all in how I move my body (which isn’t well—who knew being a stroke victim also removed gender?)
Anyway, I look like this on an average day:
You look well within the norm of women to me (cis woman). 🤷🏻♀️ Probably because you are one.
Haters gunna hate, especially if there’s anything “off” about you (sorry for the phrasing, I hope you know what I mean), such as having had strokes. I’ve been accused of being a man before (likely personality-based), and it’s wildly uncomfortable. I’m sorry you have to deal with that, as I’m sure it’s much more impactful for you.
I will offer that you may want to consider a different hair styling, maybe waves/curls or something like long side-swipe bangs to help frame your face rather than having your hair straight and fully pulled back (kinda more common style on long-haired men, ime). It wouldn’t be any more work than you do now to style, really, and should help accentuate the feminine aspects a bit more (being a totally feminine haircut). I have fine, straight hair, and it’s a pain to do anything fun with other than basically the style you have now, but with a good stylist to get you the cut you want, something like below would probably look fab on you. I’m probably biased tho because that’s sort of the cut I have, just without the volume, and in black and gray 😉
These days I just keep it pinned up in a rhinestone-studded French clip, with the bangs swept to the side, but not ear-tucked. Takes 2 min and looks nice.
My right hand doesn’t really have much in the way of motor control, so my hairstyles naturally tend to more simple stuff. Plus, the longer I attempt to look at my face in the mirror, the more of a migraine I get, as I can never quite resolve what I’m looking at. (The notch you see in my glasses over my right eye helps me to pin the approximate location of my head in reflections and such.)
So I usually just wear a medium bun and go with a clean presentation, or I let my hair fall in the back. Once in a while I’ll just let my hair hang loose, but it’s long enough it gets in the way.
I generally like just looking simple and presentable.
Those styles look amazing with side-swept bangs, tbh (I know because I do them, that’s what the French clip is for - replaces the hairbands for my buns. Just twist and clip, cuz I’m a lazy bitch).
The only effort you’d need to put in to styling that you don’t already, is to use your brush to separate some of the bangs chunk from what you pull back. Literally that’s it, and depending on your hair, that might just naturally happen when you go to sweep it all up, meaning it’s zero extra effort. They are wicked easy to maintain and live with, imho. And if you keep them a bit longer, you don’t have the annoying hair-in-eyes thing.
Just, you know, something to consider :) I also tend to prefer the clean and easy look, I just have a really large forehead I got made fun of a ton as a kid/young adult, so needed something to sort of downplay it. This ended up being the best of both worlds for me.
I mean, there are probably things you could do to fem it up more if you wanted.
These are just suggestions, not criticisms.
Based on that photo, your lashes are very light colored, but even with my dark lashes I like to use a crimper and apply mascara whenever I go in public - you could try that out and see - it can make a big difference.
The forehead, nose, and chin also appear masculine. I use contouring makeup to diminish my nose bridge and lift my cheeks and diminish my neck and jawline.
For my forehead, I cover mine up with bangs. In general I try to direct attention to my eyes - so for example instead of a red or dark colored lipstick, I might use a light-colored pink tinted lip balm.
I can’t see your eyebrows well, but having those worked on by a professional every few months and tweezing to maintain between appointments can really help fem up a face. Your hair is so light you might look at using a brow tinting brush to darken the eyebrows.
I also avoid turtle-necks because of the way they frame my neck, and certain cuts of shirts that direct the eyes to the wrong places, e.g. preferring v-necks to crew necks. I want to divert eyes away from my neck and shoulders, and towards breasts and hips. Wearing a long piece of jewelry can help with this too, as well as avoiding boxy cuts or ruffly shoulders, and avoiding anything that exposes the back.
The pattern of the clothes and the colors also make a difference in proportion and composition and the way the eye is directed.
I also think cycling my body fat has been really helpful, and I tend to have more body fat than most, which helps by giving me larger breasts and hips, and the fat on my face is distributed in a way now that is more feminine and gives a softer and rounder appearance.
Anyway, there’s a ton more to discuss, but these are just some ways I tend to feminize on my own.
You don’t have to feminize to be valid, but you might find it helps people see the woman you want them to see. Still, there is a kind of toxicity there - I’m not saying passing should be your priority.
I actually can’t perceive my own face well enough to apply makeup :(
My fusiform gyrus is shot.
hm, do you know anyone who would be willing to do your makeup for you?
I know you can always go pay someone to do that for you (e.g. in the U.S. you can go to a Sephora to get a make-over), but sometimes girlfriends are willing to do makeup for fun, if I were there I would totally do your makeup for you 😊
either way I’m sorry to hear about your fusiform gyrus - do you know why it’s shot? That doesn’t sound great 🫠
I’ve actually survived two strokes and walk with a cane. The right half of my body is generally a mess, but my rehab has done well for me. At least I can walk!
Also, insofar about me from the neck down, I’m intensely sex-repulsed and have zero breast matter going on. I use slight padding to give gentle curves there, but nothing major. So showing chest generally can’t happen with me looking even more masculine.
Honestly, I may as well keep playing the hand I’ve been dealt, because there’s not many other options for me.
And really, I don’t have any cis people I talk to without a cash register within touching distance.
Two strokes, trans, and yet still pushing forward against the shit shoveled your way. You are objectively kicking ass despite the hand dealt & that needs to be said.
Some great tips above that I won’t try to clumsily add to, but you have my best wishes. I hope you get to where you want to be.
for real, she’s crushing it - I am amazed 🤩
That is mind-blowing. It is impressive you have survived two strokes and are still walking and talking, let alone with style and doing so well.
You definitely don’t have to emphasize breasts, it’s just one way I happen to feminize and honestly for me it’s rarely that I feel sexualized or busty, but instead the gestalt is just that it “looks better” by not emphasizing my more masculine qualities. I just don’t want to look like a man, so those strategies help. It’s unfortunate feminization is sexualization in Western / Christian society - we are made to feel uncomfortable in our bodies if we feminize, and are judged if we are too feminine as being manipulative and sexual.
Either way, you have a sense of your preferences and that’s awesome, and it also sounds like you already have a good sense of how things look on you, which is also great.
And regarding getting someone else to do makeup, it doesn’t have to be a cis person - I bet there are trans women in your community who could do your makeup, even just for fun.
It sounds like it would be impractical as a daily thing, but it can be nice to doll up for special occasions, and having some way to do that might be fun for you. Just brainstorming, but I also understand if this is just not a priority considering everything else going on - survival comes first, and you have been doing a great job with that.
Thank you for being so open, kind, and vulnerable with me. 💕
So I’m ace and sex-repulsed, right? I’ve got a body that at least advocates for that and gives me almost no secondary sex characteristics. And a friend of mine once noticed that I have, in her words, “energy like Kara from Detroit Become Human,” and so I play up that android/robot vibe in subtle ways with how I arrange my hair and dress myself.
I just wish people would see the feminine in me, which has been cooking for eleven years. :(
It’s fine for you to conform and set those goals for yourself, but please don’t put that on others. Not passing doesn’t make a person nonbinary.
Yeah, I don’t pass but I’m definitely binary. My goal isn’t even to pass (though if I could it would be nice, but there’s so much medical shit wrong with me it prolly won’t happen), but is to stay alive, safe, and respected in that order.
Sorry, I never meant to imply OP is non-binary - I just wanted to be sensitive and not assume they were binary; additionally I was thinking about how rough it is to live as a gender non-conforming person, esp. for some non-binary folks whose gender expressions and identities don’t fit in society (and how that will always be true for them, it’s not a rough stage that might end, as it can be for some binary trans folks early in their transition - that’s just life for them, what is authentic to them is what creates friction in society, and that really sucks).
Not passing is entirely separate from identity, and identity can be quite separate from expression, too. Some trans women are binary but never medically or socially transition, their expression conforms to cis male norms their whole lives - but they’re still women, for example.
I bet you are more of a woman than that person will ever be.
She was cis and actually said “I’m real and you’re not,” so I just responded “I’m used to being treated like an android.”
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