91°F (32.7°C) in the factory I work at.
The law states “all factories must maintain a reasonable temperature and humidity.”
Nowhere is reasonable ever defined. I am mildly infuriated. And very hot lol
Edit: 94° (34.4C) now and this post has made it close to the top of “Hot”… The gods are having a laugh lol
I worked in plastic extrusion for nearly a decade.
The front of the line would be about 85, but the back of the kine, where the work was, hit 110°F to 120F° in the summers.
Absolute hell
Luckily my ambulance has AC. Here’s our top temp from yesterday:
As someone living in the equator where sun is fucking angry at us everyday, 32°c indoor is toasty, and 34°c indoor is torture. You should report to the authority and let them know.
Unless you work near furnace of course.
Wait until you see 41°C.
(Atleast i was home when it was 40°C. Otherwise i’d be literally cooked.)
I hope that also isn’t 80% humid, that is literally spa.
This is America, what authorities give a damn about how hot you are? If there was one, I’m sure Musk’n’Trump got rid of them.
OSHA probably cares.
The company should care, because if the workers are dropping off because of heat stroke, they’re not creating value for the shareholders.
But, but, they sometimes hand out freeze pops in hot weather! How much more can you want?
Unless i missed it, OP didn’t mention being in America though, and judging from the instance they might be from Netherlands.whoops, really missed it. Also like the other person said, OSHA.
I also work in a factory but our temperature is largely unregulated with the exception of offices, break areas and certain departments where the stock needs to be kept away from too much humidity (so, even in those departments it’s humidity control not air conditioning). In the winter it’s cold enough that we’ve had pipes freeze in the center of the building and in the summer it’s normal to see 100 degrees at 3am. It’s too bad I don’t live in one of those states where it’s “regulated” because I think anyone would say those temperatures are unreasonable.
literally in the danger zone unless it’s super dry where you are.
Thanks for the image, I’m definitely saving that for future use!
Apparently we’re in “extreme caution,” even though it feels humid the forecast says we’re around 50% humidity
It’s literally in the extreme caution zone.
Edited to add, I’m not good at reading charts, explanation below.
Highway to the extreme caution zone just doesn’t have that ring to it.
I assumed 60% RH since that’s what it is on average in the heat dome currently.
Nowhere on your chart, at any humidity, are the temperatures mentioned in OP in the danger zone. They are in the extreme caution zone.
I believe the temperatures within the chart are “feels like” temperatures rather than absolute temperatures. The X axis shows absolute values (what would likely show on the thermostat).
At OPs original temperature (91°F) the danger zone would be around 60-70% and higher. At OPs last updated temperature (94°F), the danger zone would be 55% or higher.
Well aren’t I dumb! Cheers.
I guess dry heat is a thing. I can do >110 fine, I don’t like it, but I don’t feel in danger. But its 10% or less humidity. Its usually better to wear more clothes just to keep the direct sun off you. Somehow wearing a hoodie in the desert in summer is comfortable. Its also nice not getting sweaty because it immediately evaporates.
I spent a summer in south India a few years ago during monsoon season. I was fucking miserable in my jeans and shirts until I switched over to wearing loose, flowing clothes made of bleached kahdi (loose homespun cotton) like the locals. It keeps the sun off you and even when it gets soaked it doesn’t cling to your skin, and then whenever the rain stops it dries completely very quickly. Other westerners I met made fun of me for pretending to go native, but they had no clue how effective it was.
Alright, I’m interested. What should i search for?
Uh, airline tickets to India?
Caution at below 27 °C (80 F)? Always? Why is there no “OK” zone?
I believe it’s because this table is for apparent temperature while exerting yourself.
You’re not alone! I worked 12 hours in 37°C (99°F), 47% humidity yesterday. However, we get essentially unlimited breaks in an air conditioned break room, have cooling vests filled with ice packs we can wear on the floor, and are supplied with sports drinks and feeezies. Your work can’t really make the world less hot, but they can work with you to avoid development of heat related illnesses!
The cooling vests are something I should bring up in my next health and safety meeting! I doubt they’ll buy them, but at least we’ll have it on record that it was brought up lol
We used to have a purchasing agent that would buy water and stuff when it got really hot, but now we have one that argues about buying stuff we need to actually do our job let alone feel comfortable doing it lol
What’s a few heat strokes of disposable employees when owners can get richer?
He literally threatened to move the shop because the town wouldn’t let him build a helipad for himself lol
Rich people problems
Sure works be a shame if someone happened to post the name of this particular employer/company online. i know I sure wouldn’t want to be purchasing their products or supporting someone who unnecessarily commutes via helicopter…
Even if I shared the name “we” already don’t buy from them, we make stuff for rich people and some military applications. It’s a weird combination lol no weapons thankfully.
It’s not speakers is it? Because we a… well, not rich, but not poor person, I may or may not pay to much for audio equipment.
Nope lol unless you own a yacht you’re more than likely not looking for these things
A few hundred bucks of cooling stuff vs how many tens or hundred thousands if everyone keels over?
These are the vests we have: TechNiche CoolPax. They’re okay. I find the ice packs melt quickly and freeze slowly but they’re good for temporary relief. My company initially bought these to be worn under hot PPE like hazmat suits, but even just having a bunch of ice packs in a freezer you can take out on the floor to hold onto could work.
Just did a stint at Lowe’s and we had all the cold, bottled water we could drink. The cost is a no-brainer vs. even one heat-related issue. Use the words “worker’s comp insurance” at that meeting!
My mom has a similar situation at Home Depot, she actually said they finally adjusted the temperature when the customers complained. Naturally they couldn’t care less about the employees, but at least they did provide water.
LOL! Thought about Home Depot, but the local store is clearly in worse shape and so are the employees.
And here’s the thing, they don’t have to care about employees. Worker’s comp insurance is a big fucking deal, I know, worked for payroll place. One ding sets them back far more than 1,000 cases of water.
Only takes one or two employees to pretend to have heat stroke/exhaustion and get a work sponsored trip to the hospital to force a change in the working environment.
Really would be safer for everyone to have someone pretend rather than wait until someone actually has one.
So, uh… We have the same thermostat at my job. It’s not great. You can’t just tell it what temperature you want the room to be, you actually have to tell it if you want it to heat or cool to that temperature.
Yours is set set to 65, but if you look to the left of the current temp, it says “heat.” Someone likely forgot to change that when the weather warmed up. IIRC, one of the three unlabeled middle buttons will fix that.
Lol I appreciate the help, but there is literally no AC unit. All we have is oil heat for the winter so the pipes don’t freeze
I work in environmental, health, and safety, and industrial hygiene, so workplace safety is my jam. You are correct that the regs are shit. Unless you live in one of five states with heat related regulations, you’re really only covered by OSHA’s general duty clause, which can be summed up as “employers have to at least make a good faith effort to do the bare minimum to not hurt their employees”. It sucks.
For workplace temperature, what you’ll want to look at is wet-bulb temperature, not the dry-bulb reading provided by a thermostat. You can find online calculators that’ll calculate it by temperature and relative humidity. Wet bulb is the measurement accounting for evaporative cooling, so a better approximation of what temperature a human body experiences. Theoretically, a wet-bulb temperature of 35°C (95°F) or more isn’t sustainable and will always lead to heat illness with sustained exposure. Around 30°C (about 85°F) is where we start seeing issues if people don’t consider any steps to avoid heat illness.
It gets tricky from there as there are a ton of variables to determining a safe temperature, e.g., hydration, environmental radiant heat, cardiovascular health, level of acclimation, nature of the work, body mass, break frequency, access to air conditioned spaces, etc.
For example, at 94°F, a healthy adult performing moderate physical activity out of the sun (or away from any other heat source) should be fine up to about 75% humidity (so a wet bulb of 85°F), assuming they are dressed appropriately, acclimated to the temperature, remain hydrated, take periodic rest breaks in an air conditioned space (I’d advise 10 minutes on the hour, maybe more). I also recommend a monitoring/emergency response program
Let me know if I can help at all. I love heat, but working in it is just miserable.
Thank you for the detailed response! I’ll have to keep an eye on the wet bulb temperature for future discussions about the heat at work.
The regulations really are frustrating especially since I’ve reached out to local “representatives” about how vague they are and naturally got no response lol
Of course! And seriously, hit me up if you need any EHS advice or some real official sounding verbiage. I got laid off so I suddenly have a lot of free time.
I’m sorry to hear that! I definitely appreciate your help, I hope you’re able to find something soon!
I thought that any wet bulb temperature above your own body’s is cause for concern as sweating basically becomes useless, is that not accurate?
You are 100% correct about concern for wet bulb temperature above body temperature, although we start getting concerned at a couple of degrees below body temperature too. The environment has to be a bit cooler so waste heat can be dumped fast enough, otherwise body temperature will begin to increase. Two degrees cooler is barely enough and it’s a miserable experience if you’re doing anything.
I was riding on a bus today where the temperature was 38c(101f). I only sat on it for like 40 minutes and i felt like fucking soup after, imagine having to be the bus driver. High temps like this are extremely dangerous actually.
What state has that law? Or is it national? Or outside of the US?
Outside of an actual climate controlled storage unit (IE a giant fridge/freezer) every warehouse or shop I’ve ever been in for any reason had zero climate control and not even any insulation. Concrete base, with thin courrugated steel walls/roofs mostly. Shits like an oven, since it ends up being even hotter in the building than it is outside.
I am in California.
I’m in NY and that’s the language I was able to find in the states laws regarding factory conditions, but it’s not really regulated since their only stated “metric” is a completely vague, subjective amount: “reasonable.”
Nowhere in the language do they define reasonable, and when I reached out to my “representative” asking for clarification they never responded, naturally lol
If you can reach out to a local expert, there’s probably an assumed standard for “reasonable” that the state goes by. Vague laws like that frequently just mean that you use the standard set by an administrative admin or the courts.
The OSHA recommendation is 68-76F, which isn’t a direct link to ‘reasonable’ but provides a suitable context to frame workplace conditions.
If people’s body temperatures can be measured exceeding 100F a link to heat stress and increasing risk of injury in the workplace can also be drawn as it’s generally the equivalent of working with a fever.
I brought that up once during a health and safety meeting, but the issue is the state law being so vague we can’t really force a change and since this isn’t a corporation they seem less inclined to care about legal issues. We’re just a small “mom and pop” factory, like the health and safety meeting I have is myself and the QA inspection guy lol From how he’s described his interactions with “the office” in relation to things mentioned in the meetings they seem to just want us to write down the minutes of the meetings as a formality for OSHA if they ever did come to inspect.
I’ll mention it again so it is on record multiple times though.
Can you break the office ac? Or repeatedly set it to the warehouse temp every time you walk by it.
Edit: because it’s considered reasonable (elsewhere in the comments), call it a cost savings measure.
Fun fact: OSHA recommendations aren’t enforceable. Not supporting this, but the only way you can get traction on workplace temperature (unless you’re in California, Colorado, Minnesota, Oregon, or Washington) is under the general duty clause. While a smart employer keeps their employees safe and reasonably comfortable, all federal OSHA requires is that you vaguely don’t hurt them.
Yep, and precisely why there is the need to develop an argument in defining ‘reasonable’ instead of just citing the applicable law or regulation. The OSHA recommendation provides a less arbitrary foundation for defining a reasonable temperature.
Environmental temps that high put you a serious risk of heat stroke, though. That seems like a pretty clear health and safety violation.
From OSHA: Exposure to Outdoor and Indoor Heat‑Related Hazards
Dangers of Exposure to Heat Hazards
Exposure to heat hazards both outdoors and indoors could lead to serious illness, injury, or death. Heat-related illnesses and injuries can happen at varying ambient temperatures, especially in cases where workers are not acclimated, perform moderate or higher physical activity, or wear heavy or bulky clothing or equipment, including personal protective equipment. Heat-related illnesses and injuries also generally occur when body heat generated by physical work is performed in conditions of high ambient heat, especially when combined with humidity and inadequate cooling.
Heat Index
The National Weather Service (NWS) uses a heat index (HI) to classify environmental heat into four categories:
- Caution (80°F – 90°F HI);
- Extreme Caution (91°F – 103°F HI);
- Danger (103°F – 124°F HI); and,
- Extreme Danger (126°F or higher HI).
It sounds like you’re in the Extreme Caution (and sometimes in the Danger) category.
OSHA mentions a Heat Safety Tool app in that document, too.
Here’s their Heat Stress Guide, too, which says:
The Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSH Act) requires employers to comply with hazard-specific safety and health standards. In addition, pursuant to Section 5(a)(1) of the OSH Act, employers must provide their employees with a workplace free from recognized hazards likely to cause death or serious physical harm.
Enforceability does vary, but OP should know this sounds like a pretty blatant violation and may be enforceable.
Preface: I work in environmental, health, and safety, and industrial hygiene, so this is my job. Not stating I know all there is to know, just that I know some.
The problem is those are all recommendations, not regulations, so nothing there is enforceable. The NWS heat index advice is meant for the general population without accounting for any mitigating conditions - it’s a catch-all recommendation. It’s meant for you, me, and my 400 pound, 90 year old neighbor with congestive heart failure, all sitting in direct sun without any water or moving air. Millions of people work in hotter conditions on a regular basis, and can do so safely as long as extensive precautions are taken. It’s not comfortable, but it’s safe as long as people are smart about it. Is OP’s employer being smart? Maybe. Let’s go through it together!
Let’s go off of Cal/OSHA’s guidelines, which is a decent program. I think it needs a hard “stop working it’s too damn hot” cutoff, but that’s just me (and every other safety person). Anyhow… if OP has hit 95°F, with a relative humidity of 50%, their heat index is 105. For anything above 80°F, employees need access to a nearby cooler rest area below 82°F. A work environment at 87+°F (82°F w/ hot clothing or high radiant heat) triggers a further response from the employer, foremost in the form of feasible engineering controls - things that make it cooler. This could include air conditioning but, for a larger workplace environment, often ends up being ventilation in the form of big industrial fans since HVAC is massively expensive. Don’t discount the fans, though - I got one at auction and they seriously kick ass. If the employer can afford HVAC but opts for fans, it’s still legal as long as fans work sufficiently (i.e., this wouldn’t fly in a foundry but is fine in many factories), but the employer is just a piece of shit. 'Murica! Past that, we go to administrative controls - changing what people do. This includes mandatory 14 day acclimation periods for new employees, breaks in an air-conditioned space, scheduled hydration, monitoring for non-acclimated employees, and an emergency response plan. Then we’re on to PPE - neck fans, cooling vests, ice packs, etc. The stuff you use when everything else still doesn’t quite cut it.
I don’t know the exact details of op’s workplace but, based on what they’ve communicated, their workplace likely isn’t a serious hazard for a reasonably healthy, heat-acclimated adult taking at least most of the above heat illness precautions. I need more info (like if they’re working with ovens or other heat producing equipment) but my professional, somewhat off-the-cuff recommendation is employees be dressed appropriately, acclimated to the temperature, remain hydrated, take periodic rest breaks in an air conditioned space (I’d advise 10 minutes on the hour, maybe more), and implement a monitoring/emergency response program. Work won’t be comfortable, but it’s unlikely to hurt anyone based on my current, incomplete understanding. Is their boss a giant turd for not getting HVAC when building a helipad was a consideration? Definitely.
Yes, but mightn’t this OSHA info be useful to put the fear of god into them? Based on what I’ve read in OP’s post and comments, it doesn’t sound like the employer is taking any kind of precautions (break room with AC, etc).
There’s no legal case here, but if people are unreasonably uncomfortable, it seems bringing up the OSHA regs (specifically, not generally) could at least get them to improve conditions a bit.
My ex and my son both work in a state and industry where OSHA is a guideline and not a rule (different companies), but if you bring up a possible OSHA violation in a health and safety meeting, it’s taken seriously. Not because they’re worried about citations, but because often that can be grounds for a civil lawsuit if something does happen (it’s a basis for ‘they should have known’), and they will try to meet those standards to cover their ass, right?
I’m talking about residential and commercial property management, not manufacturing, though, so it may be different.
e: I am not arguing with you; I defer to your expertise. I’m just curious and annoyed on OP’s behalf. If this were my son’s workplace, I’d be angry.
The fear of god isn’t enforceable. The main thing you do in referencing OSHA is to demonstrate a level of knowledge, commitment, or at least interest in the issue. And most of the time it is the appearance of concealing a condition that is the enforced violation. This is usually what companies are actually sensitive to.
So while an OSHA violation is a serious thing, the conditions in question here (heat) are not a regulation that can be violated and therefore enforced in the same way.
Right, and that’s my point. If OP shows more knowledge than the company (which seems likely if they’re acting this way) by citing OSHA codes, that might scare them into at least providing air conditioned break rooms, right?
I meant ‘fear of god’ in the colloquial sense, not literally. Like, many grossly noncompliant companies at least begin to try when they realise, oh shit, people working here actually might know their rights and might sue us if shit goes arseways, right?
The issue here is there are no OSHA codes to cite. The hypothetical the other chap performed was for a different state that actually has heat regulations. Op is in New York, so the only thing covering their situation is the general duty clause which is tough to enforce due to it not citing anything specific.
I get what you mean, and it’s a common thought and strategy. It just doesn’t work as well as one might think. Unless there is a union, employees are at a significant disadvantage. Forming a union would be FAR more effective than quoting OSHA regs.
The main thing is regulatory violations aren’t (usually) criminal so there’s a long administrative process to most enforcement actions. Companies overwhelmingly have the resources to litigate beyond their employees means. So if they have the resources to have legal council or a compliance officer, there likely needs to be a well documented paper trail of concealment or otherwise flagrant disregard or denial of improved conditions.
There not being A/C isn’t enough. Refusing requests to install A/C is better. The company removing workers fans to make a point goes further in a case. Then putting out an internal memo requiring zero ventilation and to lie to investigators is a strong case.
Oh no, please argue with me! I always tell my crews to call me out if they disagree. I’m not perfect, I get things wrong. It’s hokey but true: safety is a team effort.
I would recommend bringing up the OSHA guidelines as suggestions on how to improve the workplace and thereby worker morale. There likely isn’t much that’s enforceable that they could report to OSHA as it stands - they seem to be closer to “really damn uncomfortable” territory than imminent danger, but there may be more to this situation I’m not aware of. Getting OSHA in for something unrelated but enforceable is a good tactic too. Keep in mind a certain dipshit administration has cut funding and gutted agencies, so response times may be slow.
I do caution folks to be strategic about speaking up and filing complaints, and to keep a detailed CYA paper trail of EVERYTHING they can for at least a year afterwards, more if they have a sketchy employer. While it’s illegal to retaliate, at-will employment makes it really easy to do so anyhow. I know - I, the damn safety person, once got fired for getting hurt on the job!
That’s great advice, thanks. Also, thank You for doing what’s a mostly thankless job that keeps people safe. You’re in an industry that’s mostly invisible but that’s vitally important, and you probably don’t hear that.
I appreciate what you do.
Awww, thanks! I’ve worked in some dangerous industries, which tends to make employees very grateful that I’m actively working to keep their bones undissolved (not exaggerating), so I luckily get a lot of love in between the safety cop jokes. Plus if they’re nice to me I’ll show them where they won’t get caught napping.
For me the main thing would be airflow there, and the type of work. I’ve done full days in 35+ machining but windows and doors were open so there was a breeze which made it bearable (not pleasant days mind you)
We have fans, but the air is fairly still outside and pretty humid. “Thankfully” today is less humid than it usually gets, but it’s still thick. I’m in manufacturing as well so there’s all the typical machines running adding to the heat that I’m sure you’re familiar with lol
Im so jealous of people in climates where windows being open matters xD
Its been 80% or higher humidity and no breeze for a week at 90+ fahrenheit for me. Temperature hasn’t dropped below 80 even at night
Edit: It rained for like 30 minutes earlier. And the temperature went down about 6 degrees to a cool 83 🙃
Complain that it isn’t reasonable.
We have lol for “them” unreasonable is when the thermostat reads 100° which it just so happens to never hit… We get 98° pretty regularly in the summers, but I’ve only ever seen 99° as the highest not 100…
Sorry I’m not saying to complain so they change it. I’m saying complain and now you have a written record for osha that the temperature is unreasonable. You can now force their hand.
Oh, yeah I’m on record for that for sure. I’m part of the health and safety team so every month each summer I bring up the heat lol
Can you also say that what they are telling you is unreasonable? They should be working in the same building if they think it’s ok.
I always wonder about these situations where the breakdown is. Somewhere someone’s boss is just ignoring the needs of those below them and they think they are helping the company. You need to find where that’s happening
It’s a small enough company that decisions that involve any expensive expansions go to the owner. He’s already denied a request to set up a few fans near the ceiling to get airflow from one side of the building out to the other so anything like an actual a/c are out of the question.
The general response is “we told you it gets bad in the summer, if you don’t like it there are plenty of doors to walk out of.”
As a UXD who was a firmware dev for products (not thermostats, but similar things), in looking at this display, I’d bet money it’s not capable of showing numbers past 99. The layout doesn’t seem to allow space for more than a 2 digit temp reading.
The ‘heat’ and ‘fan’ indicators on either side of the temp reading are in a fixed location, so the temp display would max at 99. It’s highly plausible the real temperature exceeds that as you say.
Are you in the US? This situation feels like something OSHA would frown upon.
It is “hilarious” that you would mention that because I joked with the guys at work that I bet they bought a thermostat that isn’t capable of reading 100° lol
I’m in the US, and OSHA has only ever shown up once on a perfect 75° day and we apparently had notice ahead that they were coming.
There is definitely no space for a 2-segment to the right of “heat”. You can check by looking at it from a flat angle, you should be able to see all possible legends reflecting light off the LCD
I doubt they did that intentionally – i think many indoor thermostats don’t allow space past 99 (I just checked mine, and it doesn’t either), because that’s an unreasonable temperature for indoor spaces, and would be such an edge case that display space is more important from a design perspective.
The point is that’s an unreasonable temperature. Sorry they’re treating you like this. Makes me angry for you.
Also noticed it’s a Honeywell Home version. Most likely not “industrial” grade and would have no reason to show beyond 99.
I have a thermostat that looks just like that at home. It doesn’t go to 100°, like the other commenter said.
Why is it on heat mode? They just dont wanna run AC at all?
There is no ac at all lol
Edit: I should rephrase that, the human beings in the office have ac, but the system this thermostat is hooked up to for us animals does not have an AC unit. I’m like 90% sure we only have heat so water pipes don’t freeze.
I vote we rename this comm to “infuriating” and have people bring their own adjectives to their post
