[ This is women-only community. If you do not identify as a woman, please do not comment. Thank you. ]
It absolutely upsets me is that when I bring up women’s issues, I often get met with “Men experience that, too!”, and that takes away from the attention an issue needs.
This is not me playing to win the “victim olympics”, I’m just saying that men really need to listen and realize how exactly women are being treated in these scenarios and why they feel it needs to be brought to attention.
Example: medical discrimination / not having your health being taken seriously as a woman. Do men experience it? Sure! But men absolutely DO NOT experience this in the same way/volume that women do.
Did you know that many clinics will not allow you to get a hysterectomy or your tubed tied without the permission of your spouse? If you are single, they may refuse altogether because “what if your partner wants kids someday?” A HYPOTHETICAL MAN HAS MORE POWER OVER YOUR BODY THAN YOU DO!!!
Pain being dismissed as “hysterics”. Being constantly told that any medical symptoms you are experiencing are a result of “”“anxiety”“”. Dismissive of painful menstruation and/or pregnancy, because “woman have been doing this for thousands of years!” Refusing autism diagnosis because “it’s not typically a girl thing”… I could go on.
This is not limited to experiences within the medical field. It’s… loooots of things.
Like, fuck… it’s okay to not understand the experience of others. It’s like when I hear folks say “Everyone is a little bit OCD! Everyone experiences that sometimes!” like… no??? Absolutely fucking not, you have no idea what OCD is like, and you’re being an insensitive idiot by saying “eVeRyOnEs A lITtLe BiT—” NO THEY’RE FUCKING NOT!
Men face their own issues. Sometimes men’s & women’s issues overlap. Sometimes there’s a little overlap, but women face a much greater degree of fuckery over the issue than men do, and vice versa. That’s okay. Just don’t invalidate that it may be a larger issue for women than it may be for men.
That’s all.
There exists a persistent stubborn refusal to allow women to discuss the way that discrimination against us is gendered in society. It’s part of the control politics of patriarchy and neoliberal meritocracy. They will deny deny deny as much and as frequently as possible that women are a separate class from them in society. Instead, they will insist that women deserve or have earned the treatment we receive. Society has to be meritocratic in their view, so if women get prescribed pain medication provably less often, then it’s because something about women means we deserve/require it less than men do. This is the same with wages. The same is true with household labor, with child rearing, with sexual violence, etc. “Women are paid less because they take more time off and are less career oriented, they prefer doing household labor more than men do, they have a motherly instinct that drives them to care for children more than men do, and men are predisposed in some biological way to commit more acts of sexual violence than women are.”
It is a fundamental refusal to acknowledge the existence of gender class. A persistent denial that men and women have fundamentally different experiences in every area of society. It has to be something about the actions of women or something innate about women themselves. It absolutely can not be a product of how women are classed in society. This thinking is poisonous and not restricted to one group, it is pervasive and exists everywhere. Much like with racism, being actively anti racist means engaging with your own internalized racial biases. Being feminist isn’t one single thought or belief. It is a pattern of continual appraisal of the systems of gender hierarchy. Many men who believe themselves to be feminists misunderstand this and think simply saying they believe men and women ought to be treated as equals is enough to qualify them as pro womens liberation. Men and women are distinct social classes, and so ought to be analyzed and treated in the same manner as other social classes (like race, wealth, religion, etc)
So the logical thing for men to do, not believing that men and women are entirely distinct social classes who have entirely separate experiences in society, is to bring up their own experiences. If we say that the way we suffer is gendered and unique, they have to experience the same thing or worse. One of the easiest ways for them to do this is to insist that men and women receive equal barriers within society. “It can’t be gendered violence against women because men are assaulted by other men very often too.” Just deny as much and as often as possible that a difference exists at all.
I also share your frustration with this platform and its stubborn and persistent misogyny. I have spent as much time on here arguing with fascists and misogynists. Lemmy has a large population of male tech workers. They brought a lot of their misogyny with them from other platforms.
This is an excellent comment that I wish I had time and brain to reply more substantially to. In lieu of that, please accept this comment saying that I appreciate you
Called an ambulance with kidney pain, was told I was ovulating. Not the only example, but one of the worst.
Ayyyy wtf
Sounds aboyt right.
You okay now? Did you have to go elsewhere to get proper treatment?
@[email protected] do you mind adding “women only community” to the title and “women only community men please do not comment” to the text? It won’t let me do it and don’t want you to get any more shit in the thread
Thanks for posting this!
As a cis man I have to admit I always enjoy it when experiences of women are put in the spotlight in discussions. I think if we keep our ears open and listen empathically we can learn how to do better and the knee-jerk reaction of: „But men also suffer!“ Always feels so weird because I think why isn’t our reaction: „God this really is happening to all of us, let’s finally combat it!“
Thanks for bringing the topic up and I hope future discussions will not be met with such a barrage of trolling and opposition. Thanks for the moderation as well.
I think I also wanna highlight that WHEN we listen we also hear that the demands and wishes being proposed by women especially in a health setting are not only totally achievable and doable but would also improve service for EVERYONE. So there is also a lot of good stuff to gain from listening and acting on it.
“I think I also wanna highlight that WHEN we listen we also hear that the demands and wishes being proposed by women especially in a health setting are not only totally achievable and doable but would also improve service for EVERYONE.”
Along these lines, I find it so frustrating when people go “but men also suffer”, because so often, they’re people who care more about being anti-women/anti-feminist than actually discussing and advocating for men’s issues. For context, I’m a woman who considers men’s issues to be a super important component of my anti-patriarchy stance, but naturally, I have far less understanding and perspective on those issues than I do on women’s issues; when discourse is dominated by bad faith opposition by men, it makes it harder for people to learn about perspectives outside of their direct, lived experiences. It makes me so angry because these people are also the ones who like to go “feminists don’t care about men!”
Thanks valentinesmith we really appreciate your support! I’ve been blown away by how supportive kind men like you have been. Just fyi it’s a women’s only community so please don’t comment again (although I know you were only commenting to have our backs)
It’s not always easy in a text-based exchange, so forgive me if I go on too long.
Your point is well made; there are plenty of people out there who are always “clapping back” with “b-b-but …!” On the other hand, there are also people whose opinion is that women always have it worse than men, full stop. Neither of those positions is an informed one.
To take your example about clinics requiring permission from your spouse if you want to have a medical procedure to prevent pregnancy – bear with me, please – men absolutely do experience the same when seeking vasectomies. I am quite certain that this specific issue is more common when the patient is a woman, and it is utter bullshit no matter who the patient is. I mention it, though, because it’s a problem that affects both women and men, and we should all be pulling together to solve it for all of us.
We should all be in favor of recognizing and solving problems for everyone, even if there are a lot of problems which affect various demographics to greater or lesser degrees, whether those problems affect us directly or not.
Both men & women have valid complaints to their respective issues.
With health, though, the needs of a women hold much more urgency, as they are the ones accommodating a pregnancy!
If pregnancy is not something a woman wants to go through, it is imperative to understand that a women’s reproductive organs have a chance of permanently cripping or killing them.
Polyps / scar tissue can migrate from a uterus to the surrounding organs. Periods can be downright debilitating. Hormones can fuck you right you. And pregnancy?? That alone can kill a woman.
That’s why I’m saying this:
It’s not that women’s issues are “more important” than men’s issue — it’s that the consequences of ignoring women’s issue, very much so their health issues, can often lead to a much more grim outcome.
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My experience was worse than yours. I didn’t mention it before, because anecdotes are not data. I’m not suggesting that women (on this issue) don’t have more negative experiences than men, statistically, on the whole. I’m not suggesting anything about “who has it worse.” Nobody should receive that kind of roadblock to an elective surgery of their personal choice.
Saying “But men …,” or saying “This is a women’s issue - and by extension, not a men’s issue,” are both dividing a group of people with the exact same interest into opposing groups, who arguably appear more motivated to fight against each other instead of fight for each other.
you have worded this so well and it’s one of the reasons I have begun to mildly hate posts like this. even if it’s not intended, it reads as if it is creating a divide between people having it worse, when really it should be about solving these issues for everyone IMO.
I spent a very long time on each of these comments, because I know this is a super hot button topic for a lot of people. Which is part of the problem, evidence of that problem, something like that. Don’t crucify me on this one, I just woke up.
Hey Nougat mate! We’re a women’s only community so please don’t comment again 😊
There it is.
Segregation doesn’t help anyone; neither the ones being segregated away, nor the ones doing the segregating. It is always wrong.
Thanks Nougat, sadly had to ban you for breaking the rules. All the best 💖
I’m going to block you and your community personally, because if there’s one thing I hate more than the patriarchy it’s gatekeepers. You make your own world smaller and our movement less effective by attacking our own like this.
No problem, thanks and all the best ☺️
Holy duck
My sister had a c-section for her second kid. Before she had it, she asked the doctor to tie her tubes while he was already elbow deep. He said sure. It wasn’t much to go through. Of course, this was almost 30 years ago and women’s rights have since been eroded more than a little in the US. I got a vascectomy after my first kid. I made an appointment to get it done, I showed up, the doctor was like,“You sure about this?” I said,“Yep”, and my balls were shaved, and my tubes were tied. Both were about as difficult as it should be.
Preach lady!
Here in Canada, women pay approximately 43% more than men for personal care products creating an undue financial burden on women. We need to regulate the pink tax out of existence.
I also roll my eyes so hard when immature men go out of their way to complain about menstrual products being provided for free in washrooms.
It’s wild, right? If you want to keep environments sanitary, you need to provide sanitary products! Do those men know that some government funds might go toward toilet paper?? Would they riot if they knew?? Or is it only because they think that those darn women are getting “special privileges”? Privileges like… not bleeding on the furniture.
Bbbut the tp is for all genders! /s
Seriously, if I heard a man complaining about free tampons for women, I’d tell him to put one up his ass for equality if he feels the need.
If they eliminate the pink tax, here is what will happen. They will just raise the cost of men’s personal care products by 43% and say they closed the gap on inequality.
Ugh I’m annoyed at how right you are!
Hey shark, great points! Women are marginalised a lot and even when we raise women’s issues, it often becomes about men! Sorry your post got hit by trolling and thanks to all that reported it
Thank you. Disheartened that it does very much that Lemmy in its current state is still a hostile space for women, which is an issue I’ve brought up before.
Lemmy has been one of the most accommodating places for trans women, which I love, so it’s frankly disgusting that it still is hostile on this specific front.
I know it’s disappointing. I’m hoping we’ve just been unlucky this week if it continues I’ll see what other security measures I can put in. I’m ruthless with banning but I don’t want to be too heavy because I dont want women to feel restricted
I was actually someone who suggested this community, specifically because most of the women-centric communities that attempted to migrate here died due to abandonment & lack of moderation. And that happened because of harassment.
Unfortunately, Lemmy, even as a “”“progressive”“” platform, is still hostile towards women & discussion of women’s issues. And sometimes I want to discuss women’s issues that might also involve men.
You are doing a fantastic job moderating, and this is absolutely not your fault. Don’t sweat it! You’ve already done so much, and you are absolutely appreciated. Thank you for all you do here. I am absolutely not strong enough to moderate against such a strong wave of opposition.
It’s something I’ve grappled with for a long time being here, and I fear this will continue to keep women from forming & growing communities here unless we stay absolutely neutral and never speak about gendered issues that we may face.
Thanks Shark I really appreciate it. It’s horribly disappointing it’s so hostile to women, especially as we’ve had so many fantastically supportive men comment. We’ve just got a target on our heads cos of the aggressive men wanting to attack us for talking about our needs. There’s a chunk of men that just don’t want us to have a voice.
Big shoutout to the men who support this community! Both by giving it a shoutout and/or by giving their silent upvotes. 👍
Here’s the original thread involving my concerns about women-centric communities: https://sopuli.xyz/comment/14244123
I miss things like “abrathatfits”…
I’ll try to contribute more to conversation & resources here in the future, as well. I’ve been hesitant to participate, so I’ll do my best when I’m able!
That’s a really interesting thread thanks! And yes we’d love to hear your contributions
It is fucked that women’s rights have been so fucked for so long. Wish there was a way for these things to actually change, though, and it’s hard to have hope nowadays living in America where it’s still moving in the same direction with abortion bans.
It upsets me too. But to say men have their own issues and women have their own issues and that they sometimes overlap? Women have it worse for SURE, I just wish we could do something about all of it together. But god fucking damn there’s a lot of fucking bullshit going around.
I guess I just mean to say that I agree completely, I just wish we could do something about it, along with the uncountably many other injustices going on right now. I just don’t know what, and I don’t have the power to do much more than vote when I can. And I did.
Just got to keep grinding to survive and hope the world doesn’t end for us all, especially the ones I love.
Stay strong, you’re not crazy lol
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Woman: makes a passionate point
“Calm down, you’re being crazy” 🤡
It’s okay admit that you only read the titles and skim a few words because you have very little capacity for anything more than that.
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hi! another trans woman here (assuming you are a trans woman and not just a troll)
FUCK OFF
Again, I can never differentiate a troll vs. hardcore stupid anymore. So I just don’t.
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Read the room.
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Is that really racism? You don’t know the race of the person he’s talking about, and it’s making a reference to a huge historical injustice that did occur that it reminded him of. Is a colonizer a specific group of people you can hate? I’m honestly curious here how that’s casual racism.
Even if the dude’s roommate was English, is it racist? Because he’s alluding to something that happened in history?
Is it racism? I think you might be looking too surface-level.
She’s transphobic, misogynistic and appealing to reverse racism. She’s just a bigot
Sexism? Okay, mate. Time for bed.
Ranting is not synonymous with being crazy and you are downplaying this person’s concerns in a way that is similar to what is being addressed in the post. The points brought up are extremely genuine and Whataboutism is fucking rampant.
What’s crazy about ranting in all caps though? What’s crazy is thinking that’s crazy, that’s such a flippant judgement call.
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You can identify as a woman and say dumb things! They don’t cancel each other out.
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Great you just added a transphobic dogwhistle making it much worse.
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Hi, I’m not a woman. Which part of this post seems crazy to you? The issues mentioned by OP are very much real, though I (obviously) haven’t experienced them personally, I have witnessed them a bunch of times.
Is a person not allowed to talk in caps about something they feel emotional about?
