Oof… just because the Russians are our enemies now, doesn’t mean they were Nazis during world war II. They fought the Nazi a lot longer than America did for sure.
Yeah they fought the Nazis - but first they made a deal with the Nazis to divide eastern Europe and went on a campaign of rape and plunder. You should look into the atrocities committed by the USSR during the 20th century - Germany paid a heavy price for their evils. Russia never did.
Yeah, the non aggression pact, trying to save what was left of Poland. (Guess where the Jewish people fled?) Its not like it was the only country(which unlike others, had reasons, tsarist regime and the civil war are not great for neither the army nor people) which was wishing to isolate itself from expanding Nazi Germany, not like US was neutral(and the businesses were allied) regarding Nazi Germany till last moment. And no, Germany did not pay a heavy price, just the rhetoric about Muslims in the German politics today can say that.
Also, I would like to mention, the fight against Fascism was done by the SOVIET PEOPLE, not only by Russians (my human waves!!!), this alone says a lot about your knowledge of history…
As I said in another thread: the Nazis absolutely paid the price - they were subjected to war crimes trials, had their regime disassembled, and their country carved up and occupied by the allied powers for decades. How is that not a heavy price?
Meanwhile the USSR was subjected to nothing of the sort - it was actually the opposite, they were allowed to keep and drain the resources of all their conquored territories (even those unrelated to the Nazi regime).
True, but also the allies decided that war reparations had been a bad idea that helped the rise of the Nazis and instead of trying to extract a monetary penalty, they decided that investing in and supporting West Germany was the best plan for peace and international harmony. They were right, but it didn’t half make West Germany an economic powerhouse of Europe, especially because they didn’t spend any government money on the military because they weren’t allowed to have one.
Meanwhile the USSR faced economic sanctions.
So yes, absolutely you’re right about Germany, but it’s more than a little bit imbalanced to suggest that the second half of the twentieth century was characterised by sweetness and light towards the USSR hand brutal repression of Germany. It wasn’t like that at all.
Definitely wasn’t implying the USSR was treated sweetly, though I was under the impression sanctions toward them were all the result if their post war actions - i.e. not cooperating with the allies’ post war agreements. You may be more familiar with that than I am though.
Also, Britain and France signed a non-agression pact with the Nazis too, and not only that, they sold out Czechoslovakia (who they were allied to) in exchange! Meanwhile, the Soviets had previously sought agreements with them against the Nazis which were rejected.
I won’t deny that they did some awful things, but to be like, “At least the Nazis paid the price” is completely whitewashing the atrocities that the Soviets suffered at the hands of the Nazis, it’s absolutely Nazi apologia to say that.
Sorry but you really need to do more learning. It is absolutely not apologia, it’s the facts - the Nazis paid the price by being subjected to war crimes trials, having their regime disassembled, and their country carved up and occupied by the allied powers for decades. USSR was subjected to nothing of the sort - it was actually the opposite, they were allowed to keep and drain the resources of all their conquored territories (even those unrelated to the Nazi regime).
Except for all the Nazis who were recruited in Operation Paperclip, of course. Or the one who went on to become Head of NATO. Or all the Nazi companies like the one that manufactured Zyklon B and is known today as Bayer.
Are you sure it’s not you who needs to do more learning?
So your argument is that because some of their members able to go on and succeed, that somehow means the regime and country weren’t subject to harsh punishments after all?
It’s an objective historical fact that the Soviets lost 27 million fighting the Nazis. If that’s Soviet apologia, then I guess reality has a Soviet bias.
How many millions of that 27 million were shot by their own commissar for retreating, or from being used as cannon fodder in mass human wave attacks, where the hope was the Germans would run out of ammo?
You should do actual historical research instead of believing baseless and ridiculous propaganda. Tell me, where did you hear about any of those claims? Let me guess, Enemy at the Gates?
Blood red snow, by Gunter Koschorrek. ISBN 9780760321980 - Diary extracts from a German soldier who fought on the Eastern front and saw some pretty terrible things.
Not to mention all the stuff coming out of the Ukraine invasion, with Russian conscripts being shot for retreating by their commanders.
Blood red snow, by Gunter Koschorrek. ISBN 9780760321980 - Diary extracts from a German soldier who fought on the Eastern front and saw some pretty terrible things.
This is the first time anyone’s been able to produce a source on the matter to me and while I’m skeptical of an account by a single German soldier claiming negative things about the other side, I appreciate you providing it.
Not to mention all the stuff coming out of the Ukraine invasion, with Russian conscripts being shot for retreating by their commanders.
This makes the claim less plausible, not more. What are you actually claiming here, that Russians are genetically predisposed to shooting their own soldiers or something? We’re talking about completely different governments with completely different people operating in completely different structures and organizations. It seems to me that any accusation like that that’s thrown at both the USSR and modern Russia should come under extra scrutiny, because it’s more likely that it’s just recycled propaganda.
Of course, “Russians are also subhuman and only used human waves”. The sacrifice of the tens of millions of the Soviet people towards defeating fascism was to be never forgotten. Yet here we are… While the USSR struggled to fight a major financed power (Nazi Germany was actually in pretty good relations to the US and British businesses, example is Ford), after having a civil war, and trying to scrape by with whatever bullshit the Tsarist Regime has left to them. US tried to stay isolated from the conflict, because they if anything, had better relations with the Nazi Germany than with the Soviet Union.
This comment is disgusting, people died defending not only their republics from fascism, but liberated others. And you boil it all down to " Human Waves", simple historical research will prove you not only wrong, but also racist. (Guess who invented the “Russian human wave” myth?) I wish for you to reconsider your frankly racist opinions…
Oof… just because the Russians are our enemies now, doesn’t mean they were Nazis during world war II. They fought the Nazi a lot longer than America did for sure.
Yeah they fought the Nazis - but first they made a deal with the Nazis to divide eastern Europe and went on a campaign of rape and plunder. You should look into the atrocities committed by the USSR during the 20th century - Germany paid a heavy price for their evils. Russia never did.
Yeah, the non aggression pact, trying to save what was left of Poland. (Guess where the Jewish people fled?) Its not like it was the only country(which unlike others, had reasons, tsarist regime and the civil war are not great for neither the army nor people) which was wishing to isolate itself from expanding Nazi Germany, not like US was neutral(and the businesses were allied) regarding Nazi Germany till last moment. And no, Germany did not pay a heavy price, just the rhetoric about Muslims in the German politics today can say that.
Also, I would like to mention, the fight against Fascism was done by the SOVIET PEOPLE, not only by Russians (my human waves!!!), this alone says a lot about your knowledge of history…
As I said in another thread: the Nazis absolutely paid the price - they were subjected to war crimes trials, had their regime disassembled, and their country carved up and occupied by the allied powers for decades. How is that not a heavy price?
Meanwhile the USSR was subjected to nothing of the sort - it was actually the opposite, they were allowed to keep and drain the resources of all their conquored territories (even those unrelated to the Nazi regime).
True, but also the allies decided that war reparations had been a bad idea that helped the rise of the Nazis and instead of trying to extract a monetary penalty, they decided that investing in and supporting West Germany was the best plan for peace and international harmony. They were right, but it didn’t half make West Germany an economic powerhouse of Europe, especially because they didn’t spend any government money on the military because they weren’t allowed to have one.
Meanwhile the USSR faced economic sanctions.
So yes, absolutely you’re right about Germany, but it’s more than a little bit imbalanced to suggest that the second half of the twentieth century was characterised by sweetness and light towards the USSR hand brutal repression of Germany. It wasn’t like that at all.
Definitely wasn’t implying the USSR was treated sweetly, though I was under the impression sanctions toward them were all the result if their post war actions - i.e. not cooperating with the allies’ post war agreements. You may be more familiar with that than I am though.
Also, Britain and France signed a non-agression pact with the Nazis too, and not only that, they sold out Czechoslovakia (who they were allied to) in exchange! Meanwhile, the Soviets had previously sought agreements with them against the Nazis which were rejected.
The Soviet Union lost 27 million people fighting the Nazis, wtf is this Nazi apologia?
Yeah it was terrible is true that they had millions of war dead. But that doesn’t forgive the endless atrocities they committed, no matter the number.
I won’t deny that they did some awful things, but to be like, “At least the Nazis paid the price” is completely whitewashing the atrocities that the Soviets suffered at the hands of the Nazis, it’s absolutely Nazi apologia to say that.
Sorry but you really need to do more learning. It is absolutely not apologia, it’s the facts - the Nazis paid the price by being subjected to war crimes trials, having their regime disassembled, and their country carved up and occupied by the allied powers for decades. USSR was subjected to nothing of the sort - it was actually the opposite, they were allowed to keep and drain the resources of all their conquored territories (even those unrelated to the Nazi regime).
Except for all the Nazis who were recruited in Operation Paperclip, of course. Or the one who went on to become Head of NATO. Or all the Nazi companies like the one that manufactured Zyklon B and is known today as Bayer.
Are you sure it’s not you who needs to do more learning?
So your argument is that because some of their members able to go on and succeed, that somehow means the regime and country weren’t subject to harsh punishments after all?
Which “harsh punishments” were the country subjected to, exactly? Did it involve killing 27 million people?
WTF is this soviet apologia?
It’s an objective historical fact that the Soviets lost 27 million fighting the Nazis. If that’s Soviet apologia, then I guess reality has a Soviet bias.
How many millions of that 27 million were shot by their own commissar for retreating, or from being used as cannon fodder in mass human wave attacks, where the hope was the Germans would run out of ammo?
You should do actual historical research instead of believing baseless and ridiculous propaganda. Tell me, where did you hear about any of those claims? Let me guess, Enemy at the Gates?
Blood red snow, by Gunter Koschorrek. ISBN 9780760321980 - Diary extracts from a German soldier who fought on the Eastern front and saw some pretty terrible things.
Not to mention all the stuff coming out of the Ukraine invasion, with Russian conscripts being shot for retreating by their commanders.
This is the first time anyone’s been able to produce a source on the matter to me and while I’m skeptical of an account by a single German soldier claiming negative things about the other side, I appreciate you providing it.
This makes the claim less plausible, not more. What are you actually claiming here, that Russians are genetically predisposed to shooting their own soldiers or something? We’re talking about completely different governments with completely different people operating in completely different structures and organizations. It seems to me that any accusation like that that’s thrown at both the USSR and modern Russia should come under extra scrutiny, because it’s more likely that it’s just recycled propaganda.
Of course, “Russians are also subhuman and only used human waves”. The sacrifice of the tens of millions of the Soviet people towards defeating fascism was to be never forgotten. Yet here we are… While the USSR struggled to fight a major financed power (Nazi Germany was actually in pretty good relations to the US and British businesses, example is Ford), after having a civil war, and trying to scrape by with whatever bullshit the Tsarist Regime has left to them. US tried to stay isolated from the conflict, because they if anything, had better relations with the Nazi Germany than with the Soviet Union.
This comment is disgusting, people died defending not only their republics from fascism, but liberated others. And you boil it all down to " Human Waves", simple historical research will prove you not only wrong, but also racist. (Guess who invented the “Russian human wave” myth?) I wish for you to reconsider your frankly racist opinions…
Lend lease.
Tell this to anyone in Eastern Europe who is not a Russian ;)
They were easily just as bad as the Nazis.