:shocked-picachu:
I’d say the ones who have been saying it’s not real should be the first to become soylent green
We’re moving back to office until we can’t move at all.
That’s unfortunate because I have been trying really hard to participate in society.
societal collapse
Ah yes, that thing that has us laboring to chase meaningless plastic crap we’re brainwashed into needing instead of growing our own food and maintaining our own shelters as small, purposeful communities, all so the owners of this society can siphon our energy while poisoning the earth, all to live like wannabe gods above us.
No more penis Space tourist rockets? What a loss…
I dont think you would like what comes after societal collapse. It’s easy to pin society as just capitalism, but collapse will mean more than just the economic system. Democracies will collapse and entire regions will cease to exist. Food scarcity and mass migration will result in extreme regimes that will defend their territory, and a bunch of nomads who have to live with the constant worry of where the next food and freshwater source is. Not to mention the constant fighting over geopolitical issues (imagine current day scaled up exponentially)
Yes, we should fix our economic system, but societal collapse is not an end result we ever want.
I think what you’re describing is the state we need to be in if we’re going to survive.
We now know what happens when a creature evolves a trait that allows it to eventually gain mastery over the resources of its world, like so many a parable, we become drunk on it and have brought ourselves to the brink of self-destruction, uninterested in the plight of the other life on Earth, and even one another’s plights.
Yes, for less than 10 human lifespans we have used industrialization to make more than we need and live in relative decadence as we’ve moved away from our natural state, and in doing so, have already altered the climate for MILLIONS of years for all creatures here. The earth will recover. Life will recover. But on its timeframe, not ours.
What you are describing as features are burning out our species and setting up the conditions to make physically fragile surface life like us have no ground to go to. The solution offered, as always is growing/metasisizing on worlds we didn’t evolve on, that unlike Earth has no tolerance for error, and no virtuous, redundant systems for recycling our water, air, or waste. If we couldn’t find equilibrium here, that is a bad joke at best, and more likely just a confidence scheme at worst.
I’m sorry, if we want to survive and have a future as a species, We need to work within the natural systems we evolved to survive within, not look for wasteful cheats with a dream of getting fat in hoverchairs watching holovids. Hunting for meals gives those meals meaning. Being one step ahead of death gives life meaning. Meaning, that thing so many people are killing themselves over not having making capital for the pharoahs in exchange for fastfood and social media.
I don’t see the shame or the horror in being knocked back to what we always were having proven we’re too irresponsible, shortsighted, and above all selfish to be more without unleashing real horror upon this world: hunter gatherers that number in the millions, not billions.
But if that isn’t enough, and given our temperament it won’t be, the 3.8 billion year old living Earth will handle us, not unlike trees of the carboniferous period, another runaway mutation the Earth eventually checked and recovered from.
You can prioritize the immediate comfort of your surrounding generations, or you can prioritize humanity’s continued existence for more than another generation or two. I know I’m the weird one more concerned with the larger story than a single frame.
I know, we all weep for our poor capitalist lords :c
/s
Humanity is fucked. My sympathy lies with the animals.
They’ll be fine 100 years after we’re extinct.
they’ll be extinct too. the conditions we’re creating affect all living creatures. letting this go on is the definition of insanity. i truly don’t understand why we, the common citizens aren’t doing whatever it takes to remove those in power who refuse to do anything about it.
I sympathize with the children that had nothing to do with it.
It’s why I’m not having kids.
So you won’t feel guilty for not fighting for a better world?
You’re a moron if you think bringing more people into the world is fighting for a better world
That is such a needlessly abusive thing to say to a person.
Choosing not to have a child because you don’t believe the problems you’d be subjecting them to are likely to be solved is a heavy choice to make, and says nothing about whether they’re fighting climate change to whatever extent they’re able
Please don’t go around being a complete asshole for no reason. The space we have here in the fediverse is only as nice as we make it, and assuming the worst of people we’ve literally never met accomplishes less than nothing.
This was not an abusive statement, and I’m sorry if you feel that it was. I don’t believe that choosing not to have children because of climate change was made with a lot of deliberation, but because it’s the laziest choice. Children are tough. Fighting for change is tough. Convincing other to give a fuck about the environment is tough. It’s easier just to keep on keeping on and when the world breaks at least I didn’t create another soul who is going to go through pain.
This attitude doesn’t help fix the current situation and I believe that the apathy such a decision makes encourages people to be inactive on climate change.
it’s actually one of the best things any one of us can do. you fuckin breeders, i swear to god…
Not having children is one of the easiest ways to contribute to solving climate change, which is exactly why we should encourage it regardless of whether the person is also taking other steps to solve it (which we don’t know). Not having a child also saves 58 tons of CO2 emissions per year, so it’s one of the most effective things you can do to fight climate change too, so that simple action does a lot to fight for a better world.
Source: https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children
You don’t know this person. And you don’t know anything about what they’re doing to combat climate change, or are capable of doing to contribute to combating climate change.
You don’t even know whether this was the only consideration in choosing not to have kids.
You know nothing about them, but the way your comment reads suggests that you’re essentially insinuating that their choice to not have kids is illegitimate by nature of the motives you presume they have (which isn’t a kind thing to do) and also that they’ve made that choice out of laziness. All based on assumptions you’ve made from the single sentence comment they left on a Lemmy thread.
It’s possible that was intended as a sincere question, but it reads as SUCH a heavily loaded question that it will be understood to be an accusation by pretty much anyone who reads it, which is why I call it abusive. And you can tell that that’s what it’s communicating by the fact that my comment saying as much has been upvoted repeatedly in the short period it’s been up. The question mark reads as rhetorical, and even if you meant to ask in order to get them to reflect, it’s unlikely you know them well enough or expressed that intention well enough for it to not just read as someone being a jerk on the internet
I can absolutely empathize with the idea that it is easier to check out and want to live small than to fight. And I can certainly understand wanting to fight back when you perceive that others are doing that, because our future is all on the line. I just left a long comment about it on another thread where I shared some quotes I found validating or poinant with respect to my struggle to keep fighting for things bigger than myself when I can barely function.
I get that it’s important for people to fight, but what you said to them kinda sucks, and isn’t a good way to engage with someone you don’t know at all.
Edit: adjusted to reflect the fact I also made assumptions in the initial version of this comment. Apologies if parts feel out of sync, I’m editing this while fairly sleep deprived.
That’s all of us unless you’re an executive in a multinational corp, or work for the oil and gas industry.
We’ve all been ramrodded into this reality by a handful of giant Corporations, over the last 100 years.
time to make them pay. even if it doesn’t solve anything. fuck them.
Yeah I agree. But I could have chosen more fuel efficient cars when I was younger. Bought less shit I didn’t need. I could’ve done more. Yeah it’s not entirely my fault, we’ve been thrown into the gauntlet, what can you do if you wanna live? But the children born now, or God forbid even later are going to find themselves in a hellscape of an economy and ecosystem. And my heart goes out to them because they’ll get less than I had, less freedom, less upward mobility, less drinkable water, less food, less breathable air, and be more fucked by everything. The longer we push it, the worse it gets for the people who had less to do with it.
If it helps to assuage your guilt at all, we have been living, inundated with corporate propaganda, for all our lives.
“Carbon footprint” is a great example; it’s a Corporate guilt trip.
Oh absolutely. The carbon footprint was bullshit from the oil companies to put the onus on individuals to fix it while not giving people any options. It was all bullshit. That being said, I do have some guilt. Or at least feel it. Less because I was making bad decisions and more of a “survivors guilt” kind of thing. That’s not the right term, cause I’m going to die before the younger generations. But I feel guilt just because my child and millions of others will get a worse and worse end of the stick than I got just because of when they were born. This is why I argue with boomers about the difference between generations.
Like, you had the American dream fucking handed to you. Do you not feel some kind of guilt for getting a degree for $8k, a house for $35k, and a top of the line vette costing $4.5k? Even at the lower rates of pay, that’s a fraction of the budget compared to today. If I had it that easy, I would absolutely feel bad for people coming up behind me. And yet, VERY few boomers acknowledge this, and that is why I’m so hostile to them.
Respectfully, carbon footprint as a measure is just a measurement and is really useful in the right context. It’s important to remember that it’s the misapplication to individuals that is a con game.
When Rees and Wackernagel came up with ecological footprint as a measure, it introduced a systems analysis to human activity that we really needed. Carbon footprint is just a subset of that and ignoring it is futile. Just apply the analysis where it matters: militaries, mining, transport, energy, civil engineering, etc etc.
“Generation Me” will never cop to their culpability. They’re narcissists, ie to admit being wrong now would absolutely crumple their sense of identity. And we all know Boomers #1 rule is looking out for numero uno.
I’m not saying all Boomers are Captain Planet villains…but all Captain Planet villains were definitely Boomers.
all Captain Planet villains were definitely Boomers
only because the younger sociopaths haven’t been able to take the reins of power. trust me, being a piece of shit is not a generational thing. it’s a learned thing (possibly genetic), and the only way to unlearn it is to reset society.
Animals are fucked! We decimated 75% of wildlife in 50 years, and it is still growing
growing
Dwindling?
If only we’d only “decimated” wildlife. Alas.
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We can’t even figure out how to not have half our society be rasict, how the hell are we gonna save a whole planet from our fuckery?
good people have to do bad things to make way for the next generation of good people to do good things. no one has yet to convince me otherwise. we need a reset.
We cant even figure out how to make recycling work.
Recycling was never supposed to work alone. It was literally the last ditch effort after Reduce and Reuse.
Also, we already figured out how to make it work, but it isn’t profitable when it works, so obviously we have to use the less effective methods so that a small handful of big wigs can milk the process for personal gain.
We could but it’s not profitable enough for corporations.
We’re not gonna be able to combat climate change under capitalism anyway. The number one thing we need to do is to produce less but that goes directly against what capitalism needs to function. Not to mention that governments are bribed by companies to make laws in their favour.
But hey, what’s the point of saving our planet anyway if we can’t maximize profits anymore?
a unified, coordinated population of citizens could make big change if we wanted to. there are certainly villains, but we’re all somewhat to blame.
Yep. And if you mention this, you’re a commie and capitalism is the greatest thing ever and under socialism we will all starve and have nothing and it never worked look at Cuba.
Like capitalism works, and there are no imaginable alternatives.
Just don’t use resources to produce that much useless crap to just dump it in a landfill or burn it? Is it so hard to understand?
Damn right I’m a commie.
It’s working great in cuba. Best health care in the world too.
The problems in Cuba are all tied directly to us sanctioning them to try and destroy their economy
Bold of you to assume that most people even want that. From what I can tell…
There are a large number of people out there who seem to be deliberately making it worse - not even for profit, but just out of spite.
Tbf, I think a certain minimum amount of intelligence is required to even qualify for that statement, which I suspect disqualifies most… but yeah, underneath that, there do seem to be a few, like Jeff Bezos.
Though Donald Trump himself I see more like a monkey doing its thing, as much a symptom as a feed-forward cause of his own. I ain’t saying that he’s not “evil” in his own way, just that he lacks sufficient character for his brand of it to have had any effect at all, if it weren’t for the fact that the systems were so broken to begin with. Money (his father’s in his case) corrupts.
We don’t and we won’t.
Societal collapse is the best thing that can happen right now, capitalism will not save the workers nor the environment. Only a complete revolution can save the workers, the environment, and the future of humanity.
societal collapse will be even worse for the ecosystem. we have created unspeakable machines that will unleash terrible consequences without us to properly maintain them. see nuclear reactors (which i support). there’s no ‘throw your hands up and surrender’ solution. it all requires us keeping the machine running until we can safely dismantle it. it’s possible but the means to do it is a bit nasty.
Your accelerationist bullshit does nothing but harm us all
I’m not an accelerationist, but they aren’t wrong.
it’s not that I want a collapse, but at some point soon(very soon) the only answer will be for a collapse.
I stopped fighting against corpos years ago because the only way to stop them would restrict my freedom and take me away from my family. all I can do now is to stay informed, plan, and educate myself and family.
I’m not rich. I have no bunker. my mind is sharp. my goal is to survive what comes next. not because I want it to happen, but because corpos won’t stop and my government sold me out long before I was born.
Better to understand it is inevitable and prepare for it instead of sticking your head in the sand about it.
I’m not all for his rhetoric that it will be an improvement, but I’m not doubting it won’t happen.
It’s not accelerationism if it’s happening anyway.
So back to the rule of kings and Strongman Despots.
Because that’s what a social collapse will get you every time. There will be no “worker’s paradise”.
Do you actually think that?
As though we just do societal collapse on Wednesday and then start living our best lives on Thursday?
As though we just do societal collapse on Wednesday and then start living our best lives on Thursday?
Commenter never said that. So you’re just strawmannning. Do you honestly think capiatlism and consumerism will do an about face and start taking care of the rapidly degrading environment? If not, it would seem that we then we need to change how we behave, soon-- right? Accelerationists are at least doing something, even if it may not be the right plan, while you are whining to keep the exact status quo going thats killing us all, and doing nothing to improve things .
To use a metaphor: dont criticise the fat guy working out at the gym while you youself are sitting on your butt, are also fat and have ice cream on your face. If you want to criticise, get off your ass and get to work on something better. Otherwise shut it and let the adults figure out how to save your ass while you do nothing.
If capitalism is allowed to continue it will render humanity extinct. If we collapse now, and are reduced to a fraction of our population this century, humanity may live.
I don’t enjoy that being the best option we have at this point. It brings me no joy. But what brings me less joy is knowing that we won’t even make a choice. We will continue blindly waddling along and as capitalism consumes the world, we will wonder who will save us. And no one will.
Is anyone actually claiming that we’re on a path to extinction? That’s hyperbole.
This type of thinking is not constructive in any way.
We are in the midst of the sixth mass extinction event the earth has experienced. As ecosystems collapse, organisms at the top of the food web are in peril. Yes, humans are in danger of extinction.
What a silly thing to say.
You realise extinction requires no living specimens to exist right?
Some number of humans will prevail even if the only thing left to eat is slime mold.
Climate change is a big deal. The future is very bleak. People with the power to mitigate the damage are doing the opposite.
Claiming that human extinction is possible or likely about as helpful as suggesting that ancient aliens have the solution.
Claiming that human extinction is possible
What a silly thing to say, indeed. Of course it’s possible.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-47540-7
Don’t miss this bit:
The bounds are subject to important limitations. Most importantly, they only apply to extinction risks that have either remained constant or declined over human history. Our 200 kyr track record of survival cannot rule out much higher extinction probabilities from modern sources such as nuclear weapons or anthropogenic climate change.
Oh sweetheart.
Did you google “human extinction science” and link the first result without reading it?
The part you quoted just says modern extinction risks are out of scope for this study.
It does not say that extinction is probable or likely.
I’m afraid it’s not going to save anyone, because it’s going to be a collapse with many casualities mainly on the side of the poor, not a revolution. I imagine it as a social disaster. The rich will be ok.
The rich are only safe if they keep every grain of gunpowder and lump of c4 in there with them.
The rich will be ok and their kids will repopulate earth. With a plow, a hammer and a sicle. Oh the irony…
Richfolk are known for their strong survival skills.
My odds are on them being the first ones killed and looted when the shit really hits the fan.
Probably by the very armies and security forces they hired to protect them from that in the first place, once they realize that the rest of society collapsing means there probably won’t be consequences for forcibly inheriting their employer’s estate.
Or maybe it will be whoever holds the keys to the safety system they built when they realised they’d be at the mercy of their security forces.
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Societal collapse doesn’t guarantee anything for people who want any kind of revolution
Most people forget they are probably just gonna die in an apocalypse.
We are gonna die anyway. At least with societal collapse there will be a chance that not everyone will die from climate collapse.
We can put paper bags over our heads if we forgot our towels though.
Human death and suffering are guaranteed…
Societal collapse is enviable, the downfall of humanity however is not.
It means industry and industrial pollution stops.
Except it might not. In fact it might increase the dependency on fossil fuels as supply chain and the electrical grid break down.
I doubt they’d be a net increase. So much CO2 is from industry and average people aren’t going to know how or were to get their own coal or oil.
That’s old news, no? I recall reading that basically from 2°C there is no more economic growth, what means a lot of people are thrown under the bus. From 3°C there is no more economy, meaning no food, heating, fighting everywhere. From 4°C there is basically no more humanity.
That sounds pretty extreme. I’d be Interested in reading that article, if you can find it.
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/syr/
I’m looking at the Full Volume, and on page 71 you can see
With about 2°C warming, climate-related changes in food availability and diet quality are estimated to increase nutrition-related diseases and the number of undernourished people, affecting tens (under low vulnerability and low warming) to hundreds of millions of people (under high vulnerability and high warming) … Climate change risks to cities, settlements and key infrastructure will rise sharply in the mid and long term with further global warming, especially in places already exposed to high temperatures, along coastlines, or with high vulnerabilities (high confidence).
At global warming of 3°C, additional risks in many sectors and regions reach high or very high levels, implying widespread systemic impacts, irreversible change and many additional adaptation limits (see Section 3.2) (high confidence). For example, very high extinction risk for endemic species in biodiversity hotspots is projected to increase at least tenfold if warming rises from 1.5°C to 3°C (medium confidence). Projected increases in direct flood damages are higher by 1.4 to 2 times at 2°C and 2.5 to 3.9 times at 3°C
Global warming of 4°C and above is projected to lead to far-reaching impacts on natural and human systems (high confidence). Beyond 4°C of warming, projected impacts on natural systems include local extinction of ~50% of tropical marine species (medium confidence) and biome shifts across 35% of global land area (medium confidence). At this level of warming, approximately 10% of the global land area is projected to face both increasing high and decreasing low extreme streamflow, affecting, without additional adaptation, over 2.1 billion people (medium confidence) and about 4 billion people are projected to experience water scarcity (medium confidence). At 4°C of warming, the global burned area is projected to increase by 50 to 70% and the fire frequency by ~30% compared to today
However, if you really want to get into it, you can read the Climate Change 2022: Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability Full Report. It has a lot more details about the effects of climate change on all parts of the world, but it’s also a 3,000 page pdf.
It’s mild hyperbole, but it’s not far off from best-guess speculation. It’s well and regularly covered in IPCC reports. Have at.
You know what would be useful in a societal collapse? Electric vehicles and solar panels.
Hopefully peppers aren’t building zombie busses because they’ll be useless in 6 months after the oil stops flowing.
An ev with a charger panel and bicycles will be useful indefinitely.
batteries die
“Well, shit.”
When society collapses, upwards of around 95-100% of us die. That’s reality.
I’ll probably be one of them.
Me too
Being old looks rough anyway.
Solar panels and batteries require massive supply chains. They require our rarest minerals and highest tech, with highly educated workers to develop and produce and state of the art clean rooms and factories.
If we stop producing them, the current stock will be useful for like 50 years tops. Then it’s back to fossil fuels, I’m afraid. Diesel generators last for a long time, and they’re easier to maintain and produce.
I remember i read a doomer theory stating we should be stockpiling coal for the humans that remain to rebuild society since there is nothing we can do at this point and fossil fuels is the only thing that will outlast the collapse. I’m not that pessimistic, but i can see what they mean.
Lol, Diesel can on average only be stored for 6 to 12 months before degrading. Good luck with that.
If a collapse ever happens I’d rather have solar panels and an EV. Fuel production and transport would instantly grind to a halt and the existing fuel goes bad soon after.
Yeah, it’s true diesel degrades quickly, but oil does not. Depending on where you live, you could more quickly set up a low scale refinery than a solar panel manufacturing workshop. Most likely, people would use coal in most places without access to oil in short distance since it’s more widely available and simpler to use.
Mate, we are talking about a societal collapse. You won’t have oil available and you won’t be able to refine your own diesel at home (especially without energy).
Your argument about solar panels being difficult to produce is utterly out of place. Your diesel generator and your car are more difficult to produce, but you already own them from before the downfall. So if you own an EV and you own solar panels then it doesn’t matter how difficult those are to produce when you’re just using them.
I wasn’t talking about making diesel at home. That’s pretty much the immediate aftermath of a collapse.
In the case of a societal collapse, eventually, new city states will be formed using salvaged technology and eventually technology produced of their own. My argument stands that to restart civilization, you will more quickly go back to fossil fuels, which are simpler to salvage, manufacture and utilize than high tech solar panels and batteries.
This includes gas vehicles. It’s just a fact that electric vehicles and semiconductor technology are luxuries of the modern era and not long term post apocalyptic tools of survival due to their manufacturing difficulties, durability and maintenance necessities. Just as an example you have Toyotas from the 60s that can still work just fine and i guarantee you a Tesla made today won’t work in 60 years, unless you replace nearly every electronic component of which it depends.
I’m all for renewables and sustainability and ditching fossel fuels, but from an engineering point of view, i just don’t think I’d be trusting in electrical vehicles and semiconductor tech in a post apocalyptic scenario. The reliability just isn’t there.
And diesel generators/fuel refining is most definitely not more difficult to manufacture than semiconductors. Just to make a simple silicon wafer you need more tech than to make a piston engine. Let alone doping it to produce enough photoelectric effect to power stuff with. There’s a reason we more quickly figured out diesel/gasoline engines than semiconductors. You need clean rooms, high tech engineers and a lot of robotics for things we can’t do with enough precision with our big clunky hands at the nano scale. With piston engines a workshop will do and fuel refining is just basic fractional distillation. As a side note, i could most definitely refine diesel at home. I’ve distilled things more complicated than diesel. But that’s beside the point. I understand you meant the average person with no training wouldn’t be able to do it and i understand and agree.
Gas only lasts like 6 months before expiring. It can be stabilized to last a couple of years, but within 3-5 years all existing gas would be unusable (as far as I understand it).
Running a solar system past its ideal life when it holds even 20% of a charge and has lower efficiency is better than nothing.
“We don’t know who struck first, us or them. But we do know it was us that scorched the sky…”
you would get murdered for those rather quickly, i’d imagine. what would be useful is to get far away from strangers somewhere defendable near fresh water.
That would be only one of the many competing reasons for my murder.
I do have camping gear, woodworking hand tools, a good bike, I know how to shoot and clean fish+game and cook, and I have knowledge of some remote areas with sparse populations including their flora.
On paper it all sounds good, but I would likely die miserably in the first Canadian winter.
Even if you did everything right there isn’t that much wildlife to live off of. A single human requires a vast healthy wilderness to live off of foraging only.
Yeah, I watch Alone and I’ve seen Outlast. No way are 99% of people going to be able to live like that. Even the contestants who prep and practice and research only last a few weeks in the winter.
You would need a small community, agriculture and to store your food for winter, and livestock for reliable protein. Even then there’s a good chance you get wiped out by diseases unless you’re making soap and prepping food and water safely.
I generally never last very long in a playthrough of The Long Dark
win win.
That’s why Musk is backing Trump and Putin and trying to turn the world into Thunderdome. EVs will reign supreme.
Pretty sure Thunderdome itself hit the nail on the head with Methane cars, easier and more sustainable than either EG or ICE.
Don’t worry, we’ll fix climate change by reflecting sunlight before it hits the Earth’s surface. Of course this will eradicate most pests (and nature) but hey, problem solved!
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