May I ask this… Would you decide to gradually change your lifestyle to a less cruel one when the vegan arguments seem to be correct or would you rather wait for a law against eating meat?

Not the person you were talking to, but what took me from vegetarian to vegan was the documentary Dominion. I couldn’t reconcile what was happening on the screen to the benefit I got from it. I felt appalled at myself.

I’m usually abysmal at sticking to personal change; this is probably one of the only ones that ever stuck with me.

Bro. Nobody hates you. Nobody has made even the slightest comment about you. Nobody has made even the slightest threat against you or your lifestyle. You openly asked a bunch of people what they thought about your lifestyle and then got defensive when they criticized it. Vegans not liking that you eat meat is worlds apart from facism, and you know that.

Accepting for the sake of discussion (but not generally) that hunting is “ethical”, hunting is also a privilege. We obviously cannot all eat hunted meat for survival. You’ve no doubt seen the figures. There are barely enough animals to support tourism and retroprimitivism. It’s not a real solution, it’s just something you can use to trick yourself. The lies we tell ourselves are not convincing to others.

Here’s our belief system: don’t kill or hurt animals as much as is possible.

We don’t need to theologize and systematize our ideology because it’s a movement with very little requirement to be part of.

There are whole foods plant based people, there are vegans who eat fun junk food (that’s not a judgment statement BTW). There are people from all over life who woke up one day and thought about their life choices. There really are not many other requirements than don’t exploit animals or consume them or their products.

To add to what the other two commenters mentioned, it’s about intent too. Crop deaths are a thing, sure, but it’s the next best to actually outright killing animals and harvesting their flesh. The animals that die in crop fields die regardless given that the corn harvested - and then some - to feed other animals which you end up consuming. Thus, it’s fewer animals dying overall.

@[email protected] can correct me if I’m off-base here, but I think what they’ve said can be simplified to “empathize with the animal.” Addressing land mammals like cows, goats, and pigs, which I think are a gateway for a lot of people, you start with the premise that the animal is sentient – capable of happiness, fear, suffering, anger, excitement, love – and work from there. (Just to clarify, I think that “pain” is where the buck really stops, but sentience is a good bridge.) I think most people will acknowledge that dogs are fully capable of all of these things, and that it’s wrong outside of very extenuating circumstances to hurt them (let alone for personal pleasure or gain). They have rich inner lives, they have fears, they have loves – they have a world, one that starts with them and ends with them.

Consider for a second that every person you’ll ever meet has their own inner world that you’ll never really know or fully understand. You can query them, sure, and humans have remarkable tools to communicate their worlds, but it’s ultimately somewhere you’ll never be. Wordlessly, though, I’m betting that you can assume those people have wants – to be safe, to be comfortable, to be happy, to be loved. Inside their world, what they want at a fundamental level is probably something like what you do. And I’m willing to bet that through empathy, you have some appreciation of and respect for that.

I fundamentally believe based both on the preponderance of the ever-expanding body of scientific evidence and on my own experiences interacting with animals that many of them have the same basic wants as we do too, and that these include animals like cows, goats, sheep, chickens, and pigs. I think a lot of people – myself previously included – simply fail to realize this because we’re raised not to, because it’s just alien enough, and because we have every incentive to keep feeling that way.

I think my first step into cutting out meat began with “if I were there in person, could I bring myself to kill this defenseless animal for food instead of just eating something else?” – because functionally I was doing the same thing by paying someone else to do it. And even as I began to process my feelings more and went from a typical omnivorous Western diet to pescetarian to vegetarian, I always found myself getting stuck on veganism. I was suddenly stuck back where I was when I was omnivorous, where in hindsight I was rationalizing my way out of empathy. I can’t remember when it was, but at some point, I found my way from the vegetarian subreddit onto the vegan one after people would show up there condemning the cheese recipes as cruel. I began to lurk there out of curiosity, and it was basically inevitable – unbeknownst to me – that I would stumble across the 2018 factory farming documentary Dominion. Setting aside some time one evening, I started it…

It took multiple sittings across multiple weeks because I almost couldn’t bear what I was seeing, and from that, something viscerally clicked inside of me: that we’re, on purpose, giving an animal a world, only to make it one where their life is spent like this. (NSFL) One where every waking moment, the world they want and deserve just the same as we do is broken, worn down, drawn further away, and dangled in front of them as something they’ll never have – stealing theirs for some ultimately superfluous part of our own. We’ve given them their one chance at life only to force them to spend it in agony. I realized at that point that the only arguments I ever made for myself that weren’t predicated on outright falsehoods – i.e. not I can’t be vegan; I would be less healthy vegan; they can’t process feelings; nothing I do will impact anything – could all be reduced to “might makes right”, and that to me was no way to live a life.

They’re delving into the religious side of it in the reply to you. It is exactly like self delivering catholic guilt.