Winn always made my skin crawl!
Come on, Pulaski wasn’t that bad. She even had a decent character arc to become likeable. Winn though… yeah we hate her.
She was one of the only characters to have true growth. I loved her. Plus, Diana Muldaur is awesome. Still with us at 86!
Are you saying Winn didn’t have character arc?
She had the biggest arc in startrek and it was masterfully acted…
From disliked to loathed is still growth.
Yeah, but there was that little moment in between where you almost felt sorry for her, before the ultimate “nah, she is still piece of shit…”
Same with Dukat. They really hit it out of the park in DS9 with characters in general.
Except Jadzia Dax, they did her so dirty.
The entire situation around her death was nasty, not just dirty. But we got Ezri, and I really liked her.
Not once did in all the times I’ve re watched that show have i had so much an amount of sorry for winn.
Ds9 IS my favorite Trek for what it’s worth
its more of " I hated her less for a tiny moment".
I have nothing against her actress. She played wonderfully. I really loved to hate her character. This overzealous and overtly jealous priest.
When Louise Fletcher, who played Kai Winn, won the Oscar for the equally-horrific and hateable Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, she started her acceptance speech like this:
Well, it looks like you all hated me so much that you’ve given me this award for it, and I’m loving every minute of it. And all I can say is I’ve loved being hated by you.
Clearly she enjoyed playing evil people and is very good at it. And, like most actors who get regularly cast as evil, she’s apparently a sweetheart in real life.
I don’t know, Winn stresses me out. I always think DS9 is my favorite until I remember how much I hate Winn, and how much anxiety she creates, and I hesitate. I don’t like to hate her. I just wish she weren’t there.
The Elders tell me Pulaski was supposed to be “unlikable” but in a gruff, McCoy dammit-i’m-a-doctor kind of way.
But the fact that that wasn’t possible to do (and wouldn’t have worked if it was) apparently didn’t stop them from trying.
The sophomore slump hits everybody.
I think they were trying to build a Pulaski-Data relationship that mirrored the McCoy-Spock relationship, where McCoy would say something shockingly racist like calling Spock a green-blooded hobgoblin, but then Spock would insult him right back and it was all in good fun so it was “okay.” The problem was that Data wasn’t able to give as good as he got, so it came across as Pulaski bullying the sweet autistic kid, which did not work as well as McCoy-Spock.
Agreed! And something that could have been worked out in the writer’s room before they committed. Eh. It’s fine. They backed off of that intended relationship after a very short amount of time and gave her another vibe.
with every rewatch of TNG, i come to appreciate Pulaski more and more. her exchanges with Moriarty, in particular, make for an enjoyable watch.
She even had a decent character arc to become likeable.
Her whole arc was supposed to explore the idea of a kind-of rational and legitimate hatred, then see where it led.
spoiler
Time and again, her bigotry caused new injury to herself and to others. But then this was held in contrast to Ed Mercer’s persistent failed efforts to extend an olive branch to rival alien races who were unable to divest of their own bigotries.
That’s what made the latest season of Orville so fucking good.
spoiler
The whole season is about trying to build a coalition between the liberal Planetary Union and the fascist Chak’tal and ultra-conservative Moclan. But, in the end, their commitment to their own moral compass paves a way for an unexpected alliance with the Kaylon that yields far more fruit than any kind of strategic military compromise with the corrupt governments of the Chak’tal or Moclan.
It wasn’t just that she became likeable. Its that the guiding principles of the Planetary Union usher the crew towards a better galaxy, even when that path isn’t immediately clear from the outset.
While I like your analysis, the comment you’re responding to was referring to Pulaski’s arc, not Charlie’s.
Ah, damn. Well, nevermind then.
It was a great analysis though:)
Pulaski was a better Doctor on her worst day than Beverly ever could be.
Come on now, I don’t want to get in an argument with a dumbass, but the Beverley character had some fine moments.
I’ll give you ghost sex, and collapsing universes, but she was pleasant. Really she was there for to give Picard more emotional dynamism.
Pulaski was kinda baller though, I liked her. She had opinions and wasn’t afraid to express them. Even better she would reevaluate them upon have more data. I have a 3D printer named after her. I print my with my favorite plastic on it, TPU.
I’m just talking medical skills, Beverly was a terrible doctor, there’s no way Polanski is letting a de-evolving virus get loose on the ship!
Beverly isn’t that bad of a character, she’s just a bad doctor.
I don’t remember Polaski reversing the assimilation process on Picard.
The problem with Pulaski was that she was just McCoy with a vagina
In fail to see the problem!
I think we could have done a bit better than copy/paste and gender swap. She never got a chance to develop into her own unique character.
Pulaski had more development in a season than Crusher had in the series. When Pulaski was in a scene her presence was felt and affected the scene. When Crusher was in a scene she was just there as well, (unless the episode was specifically focused on her).
Yeah she had character and was interesting. Crusher had hot redhead. I liked Crusher but would have preferred Pulaski stick around.
My child…
Noooooooooooooo~
Yeah, but you’re supposed to dislike Winn, she’s the villain. Her acting was perfect for the role.
Personally I absolutely love Winn … because I hate her character so much.
As soon as I see her in an episode I know I’m gonna enjoy it because she’ll leave a lasting memory for me as to why I dislike her so much. Louise Fletcher is such a beautiful actress because she makes you forget you’re watching a TV show and makes you absolutely want to step into an air lock and blast yourself out into the vacuum of space just to leave her presence.
I will never stop loving to hate Louise Fletcher characters. She was amazing.
She reminds me of Joffrey from GoT in that sense.
yup. it wasn’t until the final season that I recognized her as Nurse Ratched from One Flew Over… damn fine casting, and she’s an impressive actress, it takes SKILL to make people hate you like that.
Good villains make you want to crawl in through the screen and punch them, and boy is Kai Winn a punchable character.
Ironically, I have never wanted to punch Q, but Sisko punched him and never Winn.
I always got the impression that everything Q did was simply irritating. Winn made decisions that actively risked people’s lives because she was looking for career advancement. She was actually a threat.
Also they kind of knew that Q wouldn’t actually allow anyone to get hurt because he probably wasn’t allowed to.
Q did things that were ultimately to the benefit of the characters. Picard is a better person from Tapestry alone. I wouldn’t even call Q a villain. Antagonist, yes, but not a villain.
Q is charming. Winn has zero charisma.
Well, except for the whole Borg incident.
I thought the idea there was that the Borg were already on the way and him doing that gave them a chance to prepare. Then they reinforced that idea with First Contact and Enterprise, because at that point they didn’t know how to write a series without the Borg.
“Yes”
Her too.
I don’t recognize her. What show?
Keiko. Both TNG & DS9. Miles O’Brien’s wife.
Wait, people would seriously put her as ‘most annoying’ on TNG or DS9? Next to Wesley and Winn?!
Yes. Her back story is of a smart, driven scientist. Her DS9 portrayal is of a nagging wife. It’s one of the few character writing misses on the show.
Hmm, I don’t really remember that. OTOH, it HAS been a long time since I’ve watched DS9. I rewatched TNG more recently, so I have that Keiko in mind.
MASH.
True reason for O’brien must suffer. Ancient Lebanese curse.
3 Body Problem
People hated Wesley more than they hated Pulaski.
I like Will Wheaton, but Weasley Crusher still sucks ass.
The funny thing is Whill Wheaton has famously bad luck with dice
I always liked Wesley
It wasn’t the actor’s fault, he was given absolutely nothing to work with. Every time I’ve seen him in anything subsequently he’s been a likable character and a good actor.
I really don’t know why his character was on the show the writers clearly didn’t have anything for him to do.
On the flip side of that, I don’t like him as an audiobook narrator. Quite a few authors who grew up with TNG and write sci-fi now have him do narration, and he’s just kinda meh as a narrator.
all us kids did, i think
Hmm, it’s been a while since something reminded me of alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die
Usenet?
Yep. Blast from the past.
At least she called out her husband who cut bonuses
0_0
Right?
Dukat has entered the chat
He’s hated. But in a way that makes you want to see more of him.
That’s true. We LOVE to hate him.
I truly love that the writers set Dukat up for a redemption arc, but that he chose to become worse instead.
A perfect example of the magnificent bastard trope.
I love Ducat!
Maybe I’m alone on this, but I found a lot of the story lines with Neelix from Voyager to be hard to watch.
If they’d only stopped making him so damned childish.
Ever seen Avenue5? Spike was what Neelix shoulda been and it’s hilarious.
Actually, I wish they’d made his girlfriend a little less, ah, childish.
Hot take: i never understood the whole controversy around him dating an alien with a very short lifespan.
She isnt a child in their society, just a (young) woman. Had she remained with the okampa she would likely have had romantic partners around that same time in her life, possibly children as well. For that matter, as far as I know neelix isn’t interested in her for her age in any way either, so I have a hard time seeing how it is considered creepy or inappropriate. Also, the actress was a normal adult woman, so that wasn’t weird either (I cringe more at the scenes of O’Brien and teen aged Keiko in that one TNG episode, at least they didnt kiss I guess).
I found him more annoying for his petty jealousy and overused mister vulcan interactions (although I generally enjoyed their dynamic).
agreed. OH NOE SHE’S TWOOOO she’s not a fuckign human so that makes her a grown woman who’s expected to have kids at this point. Gentle and thinking the best of people =/= naive and childish.
She was the human equivalent of 18 years old, and Neelix was middle-aged. Sure she was technically an adult but just barely. She’d lived a very sheltered life, whereas he’d had so much life experience. Plus he was a weird mix of romantic and paternalistic toward her, with inappropriate jealousy followed by love bombing. I’m glad they got rid of that storyline because it really didn’t work IMO.
She was the equivalent of 18 for about a month or so? in her life cycle. She was probably older (and more mature) than neelix by the point she broke up with him.
I have never seen Avenue 5, but as an old Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan I suddenly saw a foul-mouthed English bad boy Neelix in my head and it was hilarious 😂
Weirdly? A5 spike is a lot filthier and hornier.
“Hey, a hole’s a hole”
He does the audio books for the Dresden Files. I love it
Spike is awesome. I need them to make a lot more Avenue 5. I’m holding out hope that it’ll get the Red Dwarf treatment.
I found most of Voyager to be too cringy to watch.
It was just such a weird vibe, like they targeted it for kids who liked trek, and ultra-horny neckbeards at the exact same time.
The hormones didn’t come in until seven of nine in the way late seasons. And she’s no different than Troi, except more useful on the ship.
Are you forgetting the leotard stretching scene…? Or almost anything Troi wore in the early seasons?
No, that was bad too.
I mean, s1 and s2 was very cringy too, but they had episodes that were very well written by people other than Roddenberry, and we all tend to blank out trauma in our past.
Voyager? This wasn’t the first trek show in decades, we weren’t dying for want of decent scifi, we had tng, ds9, b5, farscape was coming online, stargate too, and before Voy finished we had The Phantom Menace and the Matrix.
The mid-late 90s were a golden age for media, our standards had increased dramatically particularly for writing.
For TNG I’d say 50% of episodes are either forgettable or near-unwatchable, with a bias towards the early seasons, S3 and S4 are just gold though.
Voyager, I have a few episodes I like (, but many more I can’t watch, the writing is just so uneven.
Btw, I have a warm spot in my heart for Enterprise, I think it got a majorly unfair rap, but the first 2 seasons are similar in their unevenness, though Season 4 is again, just gold.
we had The Phantom Menace
Hey, I thought we were talking about decent examples of sci fi
TNG … 50%
I’d put it more like 25%. That being said, I def consult episode guides when I’m rewatching and skip accordingly.
Hey, I thought we were talking about decent examples of sci fi
Yeah, they kind of screwed the pooch when they brought that up. Sort of negates the rest of their argument.
Did you see it in theaters when it came out?
I think we’re spoiled with all the cgi enabled scifi now, it didn’t hold as well as the ot (and the st is rancid garbage) but the prequels were epochal at the time, mass market, high budget scifi, alongside indepdence day they changed everything.
I did. And the CG is not my problem with that movie. The plot and the characters and the dialogue are my problem with that movie. If a movie is good but the effects aren’t, I’m fine with it. I don’t generally watch movies just because they look cool.
Yes but she was meant to be hated the other characters were just annoying characters but she was actually meant to be a bad guy.
I also love the idea that Getty images somehow has a copyright on the picture. How can they possibly have copyright they didn’t take the picture it’s a screenshot from a TV series.
Ha ha I didn’t even notice that!
Arising from the ashes, Rey Skywalker joins the fray.
Seriously tho I have seen way more mainstream hate for Rey.
Not that Star Wars is scifi as much as space opera. Nor does it technically count as a TV series as much as a film series.
flipping through my big list of Star Wars characters to dislike
There are so many people ahead of her on the list.
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Prequels C3PO, all the cringe and none of the comedy
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Rose Tico, the plot hook that can’t act
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Watto, the flying anti-semitism
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Snoke, what are you even doing here? The practice sphere Luke spared with in A New Hope advanced the plot more than you did.
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Porkins, the pilot who couldn’t hold it together
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Maz Kanata, a bargain basement Yoda and absolutely abhorrent waste of Lupita Nyong’o’s talents
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Jar Jar Binks
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Everyone who made the Star Wars Christmas Special possible
I get being a bit annoyed that they gender-swapped Luke Skywalker got to just kinda mime her way through the first three movies. But if the worst thing Disney did was file the serial numbers of the George Lucas originals and ad a splash of color to the cast, I can almost forgive them for it.
Even just within the third trilogy… Daisy Ridley was fucking trying to give that ham of a script some spice. And she managed to leave more on the table than Hayden Christensen did with the Anakin role. Hell, she ran circles around the desiccated corpse of Harrison Ford, an honorable mention for some of the worst performance in the series.
She’s not even in the top five worst characters in the sixth best Star Wars series. Cut her some slack.
Just to be clear, I was more commenting on how much hate I saw for her, because I’m pretty much on the same page as you in terms of how I feel about it. It’s pretty silly to be mad about.
New copypasta just dropped.
You leave Porkins alone. That man was a hero.
(I fully agree with everything else though.)
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I think she’s the banner target for frustration with the Disney sequels. Almost like Jar Jar for people who didn’t like the prequels, although now that it’s been 20 years people don’t seem to hate Jar Jar as much.
Yeah. It’s worst for the most recent movie, because we’re always afraid the latest bad movie is the last one we will get.
For example, I probably don’t need to hate Pacific Rim 2, so much, and I might stop if we get some better sequels.
It doesn’t help that they basically refused to flesh out her character like there was some sort of overarching secret that was going to make it totally worth it. They kind of screwed up the algorithm, like in lost you can have mystery building mystery but you need to give away decent hints on the way through and through no fault of her own her character was just kind of bland.
To this day I am still sad Kira wasn’t the one to do her in at the end.
Oh that would have been so nice, the last episode was very much “quick, we need to tie these threads!”
Kira going to save him from a trap through her faith somehow would have been so much cooler.
Bester was so damn good. Babylon 5 made me realise that Trek kind of squandered his acting talent a bit by making him a goofy Russian comic relief character.
The worst part about Bester is that sometimes…he was right.
Shut up, Wesley
Wesley is the #1 spot and also deserves it
and Wil Wheaton agrees
Don’t get me started with this guy and his fake British accent
I think you mean his fake whistle-playing hands.
It’s clearly Neelix.
Yeah, early Neelix is the reigning champ. He may be slightly less so if he had just kept his original outfit from ep 1 instead of his technicolor seizure suit.
They made Tuvix in an explicit attempt to show that comparatively Neelix isn’t such a monstrosity.
They only partially succeeded.God save Janeway the caffeinated for saving the day!
I love the way the two principle evils of DS9 are both motivated by a deep conviction that they have been treated unfairly.
