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I married a Jewish woman, but she’s not religious in any way. After we had a son, the amount of people who thought it was ok to ask us about the status of our child’s penis was alarming. I didn’t mince words with them either. If you’re gonna ask me, I’m gonna tell you why I think it’s fucked and I won’t allow anyone to mutilate my child, I don’t care how much it offends your religion.
How’s your kid’s penis doing otherwise?
Found the GOP candidate
Idk I don’t find it very alarming that they asked about it. I guess it would be messed up if there wasn’t this cultural and religious thing but it is a thing. If people started pushing for it then that’s fucked up.
I think what OP means is that when you’ve been immersed in rationality for a while then suddenly in a situation where you’re surrounded by religious people again, the things that are “normal” to them can be jarring to you. It’s quite an “emperor has no clothes” moment.
Sometimes I attend 12-step meetings again for social reasons or friendly support or job hunting and even the boilerplate texts will still make me be like “What in the tarnation?” Like literal tarnation.
I do get that, but it’s still a very present and well known thing so it seems surprising that they’d be so surprised by it
“This fucked up thing is fine, because we’re used to it”
I feared Trump a lot less after Bush broke me. I fear another Trump less even. Younger, more idealistic me would vomit with disappointment in my shrugging and sighing instead of seething and yelling.
That’s how things culturally work, yeah
You’re fine with fucked up things, as long as people aren’t bothered by them? So you don’t have any personal morals at all, you just do what you think other people think should be done?
Well… to each their own, I guess.
I wasn’t describing any of my personal sentiments though. I was just explaining to you how often societal things that might seem fucked up to an outsider might seem normal and mundane to those within that culture.
Lemmy is incapable of dealing with abstract thoughts, your comment made sense to me
Yes, the point here being that it will SEEM normal. Stress on “seem”. Not “be”.
Normalising something like genital mutilation doesn’t make it okay, does it? That’s the point. We all know that a lot of the time we do learn what is right and what is wrong from the behaviour of others, but the point I’m making it is that even when we know that, we know that morals don’t stem from those norms, but from somewhere else.
Just like what we understand that laws aren’t morals. They’re not far from each other, clearly related concepts. But very clearly not the same thing.
Thus we know that norms don’t make morals, but we’ve a hard time saying what exactly does. With blatant examples though, it should be easily recognisable. The controversy in this subject I feel stems a lot from the fact that people like me who are from societies which don’t have this practice, are reacting to it strongly, because it’s genital mutilation, and for one, the “weird” society is the one which usually is the default normative one, so… there’s controversy.
Americans aren’t used to being criticised as “barbaric” imo.
Talking about it is pretty normal as in it’s not very rare or distinct thing, pretty mundane. That’s why being alarmed by it seems strange.
Americans aren’t used to being criticised as “barbaric” imo.
I think most of the world does that to them already.
But for some reason really doesn’t want adults to be able to make the decision to lose even more of their pp.
Your only allowed to modify genitals for sadistic reasons./j
Maybe creating a movement that advocates removing girl’s lower labia at birth mandatory would make society wake up. You know, remove them for sanitary reasons etc…
Nah, they’re just (rightly) pointing out that it’s barbaric while continuing to think mutilating boys is just fine.
Honestly, I don’t think that would work. Flint didn’t wake our society. That we can have more mass shootings than days in a year for several consecutive years hasn’t woken it. Honestly, at what point must we conclude that we’re trying to wake a corpse?
I had to literally take out a mortgage to get bottom surgery because of the insane hoops I had to go through “medically”.
I’m intact. In my country it’s only done for medical reasons.
My friend had circumcision performed in his 20’s because he was having trouble during sex. He later confided to close friends that it was shit; Initially he was constantly uncomfortable because of the friction of his glans with underwear, until it desensitized!! and he had to lubricate to masturbate, among other things. He also said that sex was plain and simple worse, that he had lost a lot of sensitivity, and that it took him way longer.
Those who are circumcised who tell themselves they fine are deluding themselves.
That the US allows ritual infant genital mutilation is plain and simple barbaric.
Also consider that if it’s all you ever knew, you might just be trying to make the most of it, without defending the practice.
Sex feels great to me, I wish I was uncut, and I would never circumcise my son if I had one.
Those who are circumcised who tell themselves they fine are deluding themselves.
utterly pointless insulting victims like this. stop.
Fuck no, cause those same shitheads are totally fine with the continuation of the practice. They try to minimize the trauma to feed their own insecurities.
People who downplay circumcision can get fucked.
If everyone got a lucky number tattoo before they could even talk, something nonconsensual and superstitious, some people would end up liking their tattoo or not caring either way. Such a person can still find the practice wrong, horrific even. If you have personal trauma it does not justify assuming people’s positions and calling them shitheads.
Circumcision without consent and without a real medical necessarily is barbaric and needs to end.
My point is that I can’t take it back, so I choose to enjoy what I have instead of lamenting what I should have. Maybe if foregen succeeds I’ll consider that tho
As damn but how is he supposed to feel superior?
As a victim, I wish people had insulted previous victims so that they wouldn’t pass on their trauma to the next generation.
I’m not insulting anybody, I’m simply pointing out that to pretend everything is fine, is looking the other way.
How else am I supposed to enjoy what remains of my penis?
I’m empathetic about your situation. I think it’s the best to make the best out of it. I simply say that saying all is OK makes it sound as it’s a trivial matter, and helps the practice keep being carried out.
I was circumcised in my late teen’s and had none of those issues or noticed any difference in sex other than it didn’t hurt like hell when I would cum anymore. I was left with a scar on the head and shaft from where they had to cut the string thing that connected the two. It might be because the head of my dick was already fully exposed when flaccid and uncomfortably so when erect. I still remember the first stringy bit tearing the first time I had sex, hurt like a mf. After a few more times I got the courage to ask my mom, who I had a poor relationship with, to take me to the doctor which resulted in them performing the operation to remove the much thicker, comparably, stringy bit that connected the head to the shaft.
From that description, it sounds like you were circumcised at birth, and then had your frenulum removed later.
My mother said I was not circumcised as a baby but it’s nothing I talked to her about again and I suppose she could have been lying.
If your glans was permanently exposed it seems like you were circumcised ( a botched circumcision by the looks of it).
I regret what I did to my newborn son. It’s 22 years too late to change it, but as an atheist with an atheist son, I should have done better.
If it helps, I’m circumsized and I’m glad my parents made that decision. Not sure how your son feels, but it’s really not a big deal assuming it was done well.
The reason I’m glad is because the woman I’ve dated happened to all all prefer cut to uncut.
Queue the “REEEE” from the anti-circumcision folks…
Jesus Christ get a grip.
Were you at atheist at the time if circumcision? If so; why did you go along w it when they asked you if you wanted to circumcise your son? Did the fact that insurance didn’t cover since they deem it medically unnecessary ring any alarm bells at all?
Not the commenter, but in the US insurance covers it if it’s done initially; I think that’s been the case even when I was born. What’s weird is it’s practically the default, and you almost just say yes without a second thought (I only questioned it thanks to posts like this, lol).
Beyond wild . Casual infant genital mutilation
It’s so barbaric and gross. And I guess nobody questions why their god has a fucking fetish for the skin from infants’ genitals.
Totally not weird.
They REALLY tried to push it on my son. Must have asked 4 times!!! I’m lucky my mom is a total hippie and educated, so I was spared even decades ago when it was less talked about.
From the people I know who I’ve heard explain their reasons, the hospital staff just presented it as a thing that’s normally done and they were pretty much like “yea whatever” because it was done to them. I haven’t talked to a ton of people about this because it’s a weird thing to have come up in a conversation in person but that’s what they’ve all said.
Went from a fair question to assumptions and bad vibes. Classic ml JAQ
I nearly died the first time I had sex because a surgeon in california botched a circumcision my parents had done. they’re not jewish, just evangelical christian.
he severed some nerves so I basically have no feeling except at the base. Basically, I can’t get off from vanilla sex… and uhm… those warnings on viagra commercials about erections that last longer than 3 hours? yeah. uhm. they’re serious.
That’s bonkers, St Paul repeatedly talks about how circumcision isn’t a thing Christians need to do, even rebuking those who said it was: Gal 5:12.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=circumcision&version=NIV
especially 1 Cor 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.”
there was also a fad where medical professionals were suggesting that not circumcising might lead to hygiene issues later. parents claimed that’s why they did it. I don’t think that’s the whole truth, particularly when they were talking about my nephew when he was born. “Excuse me. I can’t have sex because of that procedure” made for a very awkward moment at the dinner table.
You can thank Mr Kellogg the cereal guy for why ameicans love circumcision. He was a conservative Quaker weirdo
In my experience, Quakers are generally super cool, not particularly conservative, and the good kind of weird
That’s not a circumcision related thing.
Yes.
The doctor that refereed teenage-me to a specialist, or the specialist, or the second specialist that we went to for a second opinion.yeah. they totally don’t know what they’re talking about.
FWIW, Mohels (the jewish individuals who perform the B’rit Milah) take far less of the foreskin; and it’s “generally” a “safe” procedure. The surgeon that performed mine fucked up and covered the fact up.
Oh. I assumed you meant as a baby. I guess this is a rare reason to have this done as a baby.
What’s the reason to have it done as a baby? There is no reason; you can’t determine any potential penis issues someone might have while they’re a baby
There are a small number of complications that can arise, including some that require the procedure to be done later. Obviously this is more traumatic for a teenager than a baby that doesn’t have modesty issues and heals much, much faster.
But what you do with your kids is up to you. I’m not gonna be there standing over your shoulder.
There’s a small number of complications that can arise from anything, we don’t use that as an excuse to preemptively perform surgery on babies. The issues that can come from botching genital mutilation far outweigh any “benefits”. People have killed themselves over this
Any surgery later in life is traumatic. That’s not a good excuse either
Bruh.
I was circumcised as an infant. I didn’t find out about the nerve damage until I was a teenager.
You know how puberty works? For me it was how it always was, and I didn’t know something was wrong until an ER trip.
What on Earth do you mean?
Ofc it is.
They don’t have regular feeling in their dick because of genital mutilation, so they did a ton of Viagra, which they wouldn’t otherwise have needed.
In this case it seems to have been since it was a botched circumcision that caused it.
Are we not doing consent anymore? I thought everybody was onboard with consent?
If we had kids consent to everything, no kids would go to the doctor for any reason. Obviously parents substitute for kids when it comes to consent, with various things that simply aren’t allowed in any case like sex and starvation. Should circumcision be one of those things? Well I guess that’s the debate.
Being born and alive means you just automatically consent to things in life whether you like it or not. But this should not be one of them.
Nah. It means you are forced into things without your consent. The world isn’t always going to ask if you want something or not. It’d be unreasonable to expect it to. But you should ask for consent before surgically removing part of someone’s dick
In case you missed it, I originally did say that circumcision should require consent. But sadly, being a newborn male, (and sometimes female in certain places and cultures), just means you consent to some things automatically just by existing and being there.
Now, whether that cultural opinion is right or wrong or fair is a whole 'nother argument.
That’s not how consent works though. “Being a woman in saudi arabia you just automatically consent to being raped if you don’t wear a burka” see how ridiculous it sounds? If you’re not consenting you’re not consenting. The fact that it happens anyways doesn’t magically make it consensual.
There is no such thing as “automatic consent.” You are forced.
I disagree that you can give consent without knowledge.
You can be obligated by your existence, or your culture, or your circumstances, but it does not mean you consented.
Consent by any other name is still consent.
That is a tautology, and also cyclic and thus doesn’t address the point that you can not unconsciously give consent.
The end effect of obligations, culture, and circumstances are all just consent - even without your direct permission. If the end result is not different, what is the difference then?
Again, consent by any other name.
This discussion is going nowhere without a definition to shape it.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consent
To express willingness, to give permission.
It is impossible to give permission or express willingness without knowledge.
I reject your use of consent in your examples… it would be better expressed as situational realities or obligations of existence rather then mindful permission.
Reject all you want. It does nothing to change the outcome.
Hmmm… whenever this comes up, I’m glad I left my kids’ intact. At the same time, I’m fairly indifferent about mine. Circumcized or otherwise, it’s magnificent.
Also, given the hour I do want to remind non-US that it’s weirdly seeped in the culture, perhaps even more so than gun ownership. I haven’t the faintest idea why, though. Its also weirdly covered by my insurance, although only if done as part of the whole labor package. If you do it later on, it’s additional cost (and me being a cheapskate was probably even a bigger deal than me being atheist, lol).
Look up John Harvey Kellogg. That should help explain things.
Yup, Kellogg’s Cereal guy. Also avid hater of masturbation. He even wanted to pour acid on the clitoris so women would be desensitized as well.
There, tl;dr’d it for you
Yeah, America is a crazy place
I’m glad Kellogg’s brother (who wasn’t a puritan nutjob) couped him out of the company. I normally hate shit like that, but in this case it was a good thing.
The large number of Christians has led to it being common, so doctors ask every time a baby is born, and most of the time the parents say yes because they dont realize how it will affect their child
Christians are, always have been, and always will be a problem for everyone around them.
The way my dad told it. When I was removed (tumor baby ftw) the doctor was just about to cut me and my dad stepped in. And told the doctor something along the lines of, “if you cut his dick off I will cut your dick off”
Dad was a 6’4 Vietnam veteran.
It’s high-time we filed a class-action suit and forced them to return those ill-gotten foreskins to their rightful owners.
There is no course of action for legal reform because the right to genital mutilation is enshrined in the US constitution. Any action to enact justice would have to either happen outside the US or outside the law.
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Donate to https://foregen.org
Needs to be cross posted in shirtsthatgohard (idk how to link stuff in lemmy)
Don’t worry someone’s posted it like 8 hours ago.
nice 🤌
I just did it for the looks
How are you healing?
I didn’t get an infection
What are the arguments for it, if not religious, and not for medical reasons?
Is it actually cleaner?
Cleaner than having a foreskin when not following proper hygiene practices
I surgically removed my ass so I don’t have to wipe. It’s much cleaner this way, and god loves me more somehow.
Cleaner if you’re living without running water.
No. It starts from “it’s always been this way”, and then people come up with retroactive justifications because they feel negative feelings about being mutilated without their consent and need to justify it to themselves.
Honestly there isn’t a lot of good scientific studies on this. There are medical reasons to get a circumcision but I’m no expert.
I wish there was more good information on it. People seem very emotional about the topic and without good info it’s hard to have a meaningful discussion about it.
It’s weird how these threads never mention another reason many folks do it… Women often prefer cut to uncut.
Do not take my word for it, though. Go ask single woman what they think. This is a thing. Don’t shoot the messenger, though I know you all will lol. Downvote away.
For medical reasons. A lot of people on these threads like to say there’s no medical reasons, but that’s just not true. They’re just kinda minor and a bit disputed.
You can make the same claims about FGM. Minor inconsequential medical benefits should not be a defense for removing part of a person’s genitals without consent.
