What the fuck do you mean by “the left”? I don’t remember any leftist political party in my country adopting any such program. Or for you “the left” is random people on tumblr or something?
The left is far less monolithic than the right. It was a sub-subset of the left, a percentage of feminists were/are anti male. Unfortunately, they were not called out for this, and so got very loud about it. This coloured the message from general left leaning sources.
Growing up, there was a lot of “men are bad/evil” and that we needed to make it up to women. A lot of this pressure came from left leaning sources.
Thankfully, I managed to avoid getting drawn into the right leaning backlash to this.
And in turn, I don’t understand this comment. You seem to be saying that young people should just figure things out for themselves, and asking why it should be someone else’s responsibility to provide them with guidance.
The act of people calling out toxicity is the guidance. It is corrective action. It’s disciplining a child.
Your orgional comment reads
Toxic man: doing something toxic
The left: Don’t do that is toxic.
Toxic man: what should I do instead?
The left: ??? WTF ???
Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.
The answer is literally stop doing that thing. Obviously people need role models, young people are going to make mistakes, and when they make mistakes they need to be corrected. It is on the person to change their behavior. It isn’t a failure of “the left” from preventing this behavior, it’s a failure of those acting poorly to correct their behavior after being called out for it.
I just don’t understand how someone can write a comment implying it’s “the lefts” fault for not elevating people out of the absolute shit hole wasteland of ethics and behavior the GOP and right wing personalities have created. Like damn maybe you right, people like Andrew Tate are really a failing by left wing ideology to prevent them from spouting toxic nonsense.
It’s literally right there, just a couple of posts up from this one. There’s no excuse for misrepresenting it.
Here’s what I actually said:
The left: “The patriarchy and toxic masculinity are evil and destructive!”
Young men: “Okay. What should I do instead then?”
l>The left: “Fuck off!”
I didn’t stipulate “young” men by accident - that’s the central point. I’m not talking about adults who have already developed a set of behaviors (which makes your first sentence entirely and completely wrong). I’m talking about young people - people who are lost and confused and casting about for guidance, as virtually all young people are (and not coincidentally, that’s also what the linked article is talking about).
And ironically enough, you actually provide an example of the problem insofar as you don’t even acknowledge the distinction - you just lump them in with overtly misogynistic and toxic adults and condemn them each and all. You not only refuse to provide them with the guidance they want and need, but bristle self-righteously at the very thought that there might be any expectation that you should.
And meanwhile, people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate go out of their way to recognize them and cultivate them. And it works not least because you’ve already written them off.
Which is pretty much exactly my point, and the point of the linked article. We need to do more than simply assume that young men are automatically misogynists and therefore condemn them. We need to provide them with something positive - an actual path that they can follow that leads to a better way of living. They’re right there, right now - at the crossroads in their lives, wondering how they should go about growing into adults, and Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate and their ilk are right there, right now, telling them a bunch of toxic bullshit.
And meanwhile, what are we offering them? Just what you said here - the presumption that they’re already toxic, and a bland command to knock it the fuck off.
I have to say I think your comment is very well written. You are much better with words than I. However, I fail to see where I am lumping people together.
Like I understand there is some discontinuity between your orgional comment and my approximation of how it comes across. I get what you are saying about swapping “young man” for “toxic man” and see how it seems I conflated the two. But the answer to their question is still “dont act like this”. I am clearly not insinuating that all young people are automatically misogynistic just because the word was omitted. People acting misogynistic are (intended or not) perpetuating misogyny and if they fail to respond to correction, even if not directed at them, is not the failure of the left.
I am not sure what you meant by “makes your first sentence completely wrong”. If you are referring to my use of “child” it was a euphemism comparing how social backlash for poor behavior is akin to disciplining a child.
It’s clear that you want the best for young people and to keep them out if the right wing ideology. But blaming it on “the left” and not the source of the probelm is just ridiculous.
Edit: Deleted my last sentence about positive role models because it was incorrect. And added stuff below.
After thinking about your comments overnight I understand what you are saying and agree. The left needs to do more to educate and guide young people.
I am not sure what you meant by “makes your first sentence completely wrong”.
Sorry - I should’ve made that more clear. I meant the first sentence of your summation of what I said - the part I quoted. It went wrong immediately because you started with the presumption of an already toxic man doing something toxic, for which he’s then condemned. But I was talking about young people - people who haven’t established an adult personality yet - who are still feeling their way through life, trying to figure out who and what they want to be.
And to your edit - there’s nothing I value more in a discussion/debate than honesty,cand not just the surface homesty of telling the truth as one sees it, but the deeper and much more rare intellectual honesty of actually considering what the other person has said, rather than just rejecting it out of hand. So thanks.
Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.
The reason this comes up is that masculinity is largely based around externally conferred social status. You have to constantly be doing something to maintain an image of masculinity. Often this means some sort of social or physical violence in the right time or place (beat up the mugger to defend your partner, call out your boss when you’re being treated unfairly, put rival men in their place). Just as frequently, however, it is the expectation of a certain amount of self sacrifice (paying for meals, military service). What they don’t understand is how anyone can expect them to maintain their social status when they are avoiding this role that they have been explicitly shown that there will be consequences if they fail to meet. The answer is simple: once you’re out of the masculinity rat race, you’re out. By refusing to take part in the hierarchy of dominance you will eventually be subject to a more general and, frankly, human set of standards.
The only problem is that all of these pressures are external in the first place and this whole dynamic creates strong social gender boundaries. It is very easy for a lot of men to look at their social circles and see exclusively people who punish them for a failure to live up to a masculine ideal.
This is going to be counter intuitive: being a POS is something some people want. They especially want it if it promises them comfort, luxury, or status.
I mean, look at all the trash people consume everyday despite how bad it is for them. We all know it’s bad. Still, we gotta have it.
Being a POS is like drinking soda with no one to tout the benefits of drinking straight H2O. The left needs to make drinking water sexy!
Bad analogy. My choice of beverage does not affect other people.
Treating people with basic respect and as equals is no one’s responsibility to “make sexy”. Let’s say the convo was about being racist. Is it someone’s responsibility to make it cool to treat another person as an equal? Or would you be bigoted because it just how things are?
Yeah, I get it. It’s really hard to understand. It’s just basic respect, right? How could someone not value basic human decency?
I can’t answer that question. All I know is that some people just don’t.
It doesn’t make sense to me that domestic abusers will beat up someone that loves them, yet it still happens. Politicians push legislation that they know will hurt their constituents, yet they still push it. Parents will try to force the lifestyle they desire for their children on their children out of love, even as it alienates their children, yet they persist. Some (many/all??) criminals know what they do hurts other people, yet they still commit crime.
I don’t get it either. I only know basic human decency isn’t valued by a lot of people. And you can indignantly scoff at such people all you want, incredulous that they just don’t get the basics of empathy, a fundamental human emotion. They’ll hurt others all the same.
Me, though? Drawing on my empathy, I hope such people find the happiness and freedom they’re looking for without the pain and suffering they cause.
It boggles the mind doesn’t it? The left tells them what behavior is unacceptable. So they ask how they’re supposed to behave. But the left already told them what was unacceptable. Then they get upset when the people who told them how to behave react to negatively to them acting ignorant.
If men really need to be told how to behave at all. There’s no hope for men’s liberation. If you don’t know what patriarchy and misogyny is. You shouldn’t be taking part in any debates activism or discourse on the subject. At least not until you’ve gone and educated yourself.
And to those who really don’t know or would actually like to understand. Asking how you’re supposed to behave is the wrong way to go about it. You can behave however you like as long as you don’t act misogynist and patriarchal. Don’t imply someone must be a certain way or can’t do a certain thing because of who they are. For example I think most guys would get a little upset if someone assumed that they were an ignorant caveman incapable of learning.
If you really have to ask. The best way to ask is to be genuine. To tell anyone acting offended that you’re aware some of the behaviors Etc that you’ve been raised with are problematic. And that you are doing your best to understand when they are and learn to not do that. And then ask the person to help you understand what Behavior it was that upset them. You’ll have infinitely more success and much better answers that way. Just by being sincere.
It’s about goddamned time.
This has been what’s happened for the last 20 years or so:
The left: “The patriarchy and toxic masculinity are evil and destructive!”
Young men: “Okay. What should I do instead then?”
The left: “Fuck off!”
So, entirely predictably, they’ve fucked off. Right into the welcoming embrace of the toxically masculine and patriarchal right.
Call someone the devil enough and eventually they might believe you.
What the fuck do you mean by “the left”? I don’t remember any leftist political party in my country adopting any such program. Or for you “the left” is random people on tumblr or something?
The left is far less monolithic than the right. It was a sub-subset of the left, a percentage of feminists were/are anti male. Unfortunately, they were not called out for this, and so got very loud about it. This coloured the message from general left leaning sources.
Growing up, there was a lot of “men are bad/evil” and that we needed to make it up to women. A lot of this pressure came from left leaning sources.
Thankfully, I managed to avoid getting drawn into the right leaning backlash to this.
I don’t understand this comment. Why do you need to ask “The Left” what to do instead of not being misogynistic or promoting toxic masculinity?
Implies it’s someone elses responsibility to provide you with alternatives to being a POS rather then just doing anything else.
And in turn, I don’t understand this comment. You seem to be saying that young people should just figure things out for themselves, and asking why it should be someone else’s responsibility to provide them with guidance.
Is that what you actually believe?
The act of people calling out toxicity is the guidance. It is corrective action. It’s disciplining a child.
Your orgional comment reads
Toxic man: doing something toxic
The left: Don’t do that is toxic.
Toxic man: what should I do instead?
The left: ??? WTF ???
Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.
The answer is literally stop doing that thing. Obviously people need role models, young people are going to make mistakes, and when they make mistakes they need to be corrected. It is on the person to change their behavior. It isn’t a failure of “the left” from preventing this behavior, it’s a failure of those acting poorly to correct their behavior after being called out for it.
I just don’t understand how someone can write a comment implying it’s “the lefts” fault for not elevating people out of the absolute shit hole wasteland of ethics and behavior the GOP and right wing personalities have created. Like damn maybe you right, people like Andrew Tate are really a failing by left wing ideology to prevent them from spouting toxic nonsense.
Edit: Changed him back to them in last paragraph
No it doesn’t.
It’s literally right there, just a couple of posts up from this one. There’s no excuse for misrepresenting it.
Here’s what I actually said:
l>The left: “Fuck off!”
I didn’t stipulate “young” men by accident - that’s the central point. I’m not talking about adults who have already developed a set of behaviors (which makes your first sentence entirely and completely wrong). I’m talking about young people - people who are lost and confused and casting about for guidance, as virtually all young people are (and not coincidentally, that’s also what the linked article is talking about).
And ironically enough, you actually provide an example of the problem insofar as you don’t even acknowledge the distinction - you just lump them in with overtly misogynistic and toxic adults and condemn them each and all. You not only refuse to provide them with the guidance they want and need, but bristle self-righteously at the very thought that there might be any expectation that you should.
And meanwhile, people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate go out of their way to recognize them and cultivate them. And it works not least because you’ve already written them off.
Which is pretty much exactly my point, and the point of the linked article. We need to do more than simply assume that young men are automatically misogynists and therefore condemn them. We need to provide them with something positive - an actual path that they can follow that leads to a better way of living. They’re right there, right now - at the crossroads in their lives, wondering how they should go about growing into adults, and Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate and their ilk are right there, right now, telling them a bunch of toxic bullshit.
And meanwhile, what are we offering them? Just what you said here - the presumption that they’re already toxic, and a bland command to knock it the fuck off.
Self-evidently, that’s not enough.
I have to say I think your comment is very well written. You are much better with words than I. However, I fail to see where I am lumping people together.
Like I understand there is some discontinuity between your orgional comment and my approximation of how it comes across. I get what you are saying about swapping “young man” for “toxic man” and see how it seems I conflated the two. But the answer to their question is still “dont act like this”. I am clearly not insinuating that all young people are automatically misogynistic just because the word was omitted. People acting misogynistic are (intended or not) perpetuating misogyny and if they fail to respond to correction, even if not directed at them, is not the failure of the left.
I am not sure what you meant by “makes your first sentence completely wrong”. If you are referring to my use of “child” it was a euphemism comparing how social backlash for poor behavior is akin to disciplining a child.
It’s clear that you want the best for young people and to keep them out if the right wing ideology. But blaming it on “the left” and not the source of the probelm is just ridiculous.
Edit: Deleted my last sentence about positive role models because it was incorrect. And added stuff below.
After thinking about your comments overnight I understand what you are saying and agree. The left needs to do more to educate and guide young people.
Sorry - I should’ve made that more clear. I meant the first sentence of your summation of what I said - the part I quoted. It went wrong immediately because you started with the presumption of an already toxic man doing something toxic, for which he’s then condemned. But I was talking about young people - people who haven’t established an adult personality yet - who are still feeling their way through life, trying to figure out who and what they want to be.
And to your edit - there’s nothing I value more in a discussion/debate than honesty,cand not just the surface homesty of telling the truth as one sees it, but the deeper and much more rare intellectual honesty of actually considering what the other person has said, rather than just rejecting it out of hand. So thanks.
I just wanted to say it’s great that you took this to heart and started thinking about it. Hope you have a wonderful week!
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here.
The reason this comes up is that masculinity is largely based around externally conferred social status. You have to constantly be doing something to maintain an image of masculinity. Often this means some sort of social or physical violence in the right time or place (beat up the mugger to defend your partner, call out your boss when you’re being treated unfairly, put rival men in their place). Just as frequently, however, it is the expectation of a certain amount of self sacrifice (paying for meals, military service). What they don’t understand is how anyone can expect them to maintain their social status when they are avoiding this role that they have been explicitly shown that there will be consequences if they fail to meet. The answer is simple: once you’re out of the masculinity rat race, you’re out. By refusing to take part in the hierarchy of dominance you will eventually be subject to a more general and, frankly, human set of standards.
The only problem is that all of these pressures are external in the first place and this whole dynamic creates strong social gender boundaries. It is very easy for a lot of men to look at their social circles and see exclusively people who punish them for a failure to live up to a masculine ideal.
This is going to be counter intuitive: being a POS is something some people want. They especially want it if it promises them comfort, luxury, or status.
I mean, look at all the trash people consume everyday despite how bad it is for them. We all know it’s bad. Still, we gotta have it.
Being a POS is like drinking soda with no one to tout the benefits of drinking straight H2O. The left needs to make drinking water sexy!
Bad analogy. My choice of beverage does not affect other people.
Treating people with basic respect and as equals is no one’s responsibility to “make sexy”. Let’s say the convo was about being racist. Is it someone’s responsibility to make it cool to treat another person as an equal? Or would you be bigoted because it just how things are?
Edit: changed Influence to affect
Yeah, I get it. It’s really hard to understand. It’s just basic respect, right? How could someone not value basic human decency?
I can’t answer that question. All I know is that some people just don’t.
It doesn’t make sense to me that domestic abusers will beat up someone that loves them, yet it still happens. Politicians push legislation that they know will hurt their constituents, yet they still push it. Parents will try to force the lifestyle they desire for their children on their children out of love, even as it alienates their children, yet they persist. Some (many/all??) criminals know what they do hurts other people, yet they still commit crime.
I don’t get it either. I only know basic human decency isn’t valued by a lot of people. And you can indignantly scoff at such people all you want, incredulous that they just don’t get the basics of empathy, a fundamental human emotion. They’ll hurt others all the same.
Me, though? Drawing on my empathy, I hope such people find the happiness and freedom they’re looking for without the pain and suffering they cause.
It boggles the mind doesn’t it? The left tells them what behavior is unacceptable. So they ask how they’re supposed to behave. But the left already told them what was unacceptable. Then they get upset when the people who told them how to behave react to negatively to them acting ignorant.
If men really need to be told how to behave at all. There’s no hope for men’s liberation. If you don’t know what patriarchy and misogyny is. You shouldn’t be taking part in any debates activism or discourse on the subject. At least not until you’ve gone and educated yourself.
And to those who really don’t know or would actually like to understand. Asking how you’re supposed to behave is the wrong way to go about it. You can behave however you like as long as you don’t act misogynist and patriarchal. Don’t imply someone must be a certain way or can’t do a certain thing because of who they are. For example I think most guys would get a little upset if someone assumed that they were an ignorant caveman incapable of learning.
If you really have to ask. The best way to ask is to be genuine. To tell anyone acting offended that you’re aware some of the behaviors Etc that you’ve been raised with are problematic. And that you are doing your best to understand when they are and learn to not do that. And then ask the person to help you understand what Behavior it was that upset them. You’ll have infinitely more success and much better answers that way. Just by being sincere.