White is not the only high-level cyclist to die in Colorado in recent years. In 2020, Clif Pro Team racer Ben Sonntag was killed by a driver while on a training ride outside Durango. That driver was sentenced to serve jail time in late 2021. In 2021, U.S. masters champion Gwen Inglis was killed by a driver outside Lakewood, Colorado.
Can’t we agree that cycling on roads is poor judgement?
I totally get it. We should all have the right to cycle on the side of the road without getting hit by cars. I feel like we are all entitled to that.
Reality tho is that cycling on a road with no shoulder with cars whipping past at fatal speeds is a bad idea. Any time you do it you’re putting yourself at great risk. When you consider how many drunk and bad drivers out there you are taking a massive risk.
It seems that cyclists either don’t comprehend the level of danger it is, or they just think that it won’t happen to them. Either way I look at that as poor judgement.
I understand that a lot of areas don’t have infrastructure to support cyclists but you also need to understand that if you’re going to be super stubborn and do it anyway, then you’re putting your life on the line. Is it really worth it?
You are trying to blame the victims, and that’s not fair.
People in cars also die on roads, so we can agree that cars are the problem.
Also, these are pro level cyclists who can’t train on bike paths.
Roads should be safe, and it’s not cyclists who are making it unsafe, it’s the cars. We need to find solutions that don’t punish victims.
I’m not explicitly trying to blame anyone.
All I am saying is that it’s extremely dangerous. Is it really that hard for you all to actually see how dangerous it is?
You’re arguing about how things SHOULD be. I am talking about how things actually are.
I agree that biking on a road should be safe. The reality is it isn’t.
So I am just trying to understand. Do you all bike on busy dangerous roads because you have the expectation no one will hit you, or do you just not consider how dangerous it is?
Unfortunately, many of these crashes happen on NOT BUSY roads, like out in farm country and rural roads. Cyclists choose these roads specifically to be away from cars and “dangerous roads”, but drivers who speed or aren’t paying attention will kill you no matter where you ride!
Riding in a large group can help to reduce risks, but it’s not even an option for everyone, especially if you are commuting. And even that can simply result in multiple fatalities or injuries when an inattentive driver is close by.
Without any alternatives, except to ride on a road, what other option would a cyclist have? Not ride?
Build cycling infrastructure and it becomes safer. Remove cars and it’s guaranteed to be safe.
And when you consider that the majority of cycling (and pedestrian) fatalities occur in areas where cyclists and pedestrians are expected to be, including bike lanes or crosswalks, you really can’t keep blaming them for causing their own deaths.
It sounds like you agree that cycling is extremely dangerous and that most fatalities happen in places where it’s expected that there are lots of cyclists.
You have to admit that if it’s well known that cars are unsafe then cycling near them is also unsafe.
Why is it that cyclists don’t have to consider their safety just because they are cycling?
People driving cars should also be considering their safety and what’s at risk to them if they decide to drive a car.
You’re responsible for own safety at the end of the day and making a decision to do something very dangerous comes with risks. It’s a risk factor like anything else. It just happens to be extremely dangerous and it seems like most people who make the decision to cycle on roads aren’t considering it, because if they did consider the actual risks I’d imagine less people would do it.
As far as what do you do? Honestly I don’t know but if your decision is to say fuck it and do it anyway then your decision shouldn’t be taken lightly. You’re risking a lot by doing so.
Cycling is not extremely dangerous. Cars are extremely dangerous to everyone in or around them.
Per capita, car driver fatalities are dozens of times more common than pedestrian or cyclist fatalities.
Pedestrians and cyclists just happen to be killed by cars, not because walking or cycling is dangerous, but because cars are!
Should people just cycling indoors? I don’t understand where you’re going with this logic.
Yes, being near cars is unsafe. Driving a car is also unsafe. Seems like maybe we should simply get rid of cars. But since we can’t, we have to work with what’s available.
Why should any pedestrian or cyclist feel that they can’t move freely in any setting, simply because cars are dangerous?
Kids can’t get off a bus because cars are dangerous; you can’t walk across a crosswalk because cars are dangerous; you can’t bike ride anywhere because cars are dangerous; you can’t even stand at a bus stop because cars are dangerous.
Yes, I agree that personal responsibility is important. That’s why I ride with high-viz clothing, lights, reflectors, a bike radar, use hand signals, ride defensively, ride in bike lanes, and do everything else that I’m supposed to do.
And yet drivers in cars still go out of their way to put me at risk by speeding, not using turn signals, ignoring traffic signs/light, ignoring cycling lanes, passing dangerously, not passing when they have ample space, and by being distracted.
When does my personal responsibility end and a driver’s personal responsibility begin? We both have EQUAL legal access to these roadways, but it seems like there’s a complete imbalance of responsibility for road safety.
Should the person driving a multi-ton weapon not have a greater responsibility for operating that weapon, than the bystanders who happen to be in the same area?
The reality is that people have to get groceries, or pick up their kid at school, or drop a letter off in their local post box, or walk to a friend’s house, or get exercise, or simply to enjoy fresh air. They do this on foot or by bike.
None of these activities should involve dying by car, and it’s unfair to put the blame on victims who are simply doing low-risk activities which happen to be close to cars.
Got it so to sum up according to you cars are super dangerous but cycling isn’t therefore cycling near super dangerous cars isn’t dangerous. Since it isn’t dangerous cyclists do not need to consider any risk involved. That’s essentially what you’re saying.
Ok, let’s do this.
Yes. 100%.
Correct.
No. It IS super dangerous because cars are near.
No, it’s dangerous when cars are around, but the solution isn’t to not cycle.
Standing on a sidewalk is dangerous if there are cars around. Moving cars near anyone can make anything dangerous. The problem is cars (and trucks).
Now, if we can agree that cars are the critical variable that makes these situations dangerous (and not the activity itself), then we can move forward with a solution.
If I were to draw a parallel here, it would be guns and schools. Going to school isn’t dangerous, but someone with a gun in school seems to cause kids to die. A lot.
Shouldn’t the solution have something to do with removing guns from the equation, and not the school, or kids going to school? That’s how you can look at cycling (or walking, or using a wheelchair in public, or riding an e-scooter).
The way you’re describing cycling, it’s as if it’s some extreme sport that only crazy people do. That’s not reality. Kids as young as a few years old and people over 100 ride bikes for all sorts of normal, everyday reasons. They aren’t the problem.
“The way you’re describing cycling, it’s as if it’s some extreme sport that only crazy people do. That’s not reality. Kids as young as a few years old and people over 100 ride bikes for all sorts of normal, everyday reasons. They aren’t the problem. “
Kind of. You’re missing the point tho. Cycling in itself isn’t dangerous and I never said it was. Cycling on a road with cars driving by at 35+ mph is in my opinion VERY extreme and crazy. You’d have to be crazy to put your life in that kind of danger.
I agree that cars are the problem and that we do most definitely need a solution.
The solution tho is NOT to be stubborn and continue cycling on dangerous roads. You’re just doubling down on your position.
Feel free to lobby the government. Feel free to seek infrastructure changes to make cycling safer. But at the end of the day it’s your choice on whether or not you want to take risks. If you go as far as taking the enormous risk of biking on busy roads then it’s you who has to live with the consequences if something bad happens.
Walking down the highway is ridiculously unsafe. It’s one thing if you find yourself in a desperate situation one day and you’re forced to do it. It’s a completely different situation tho if you’re deciding to do it for exercise. The solution is to find a better method of exercise and to not go walking down the highway.
I really don’t know what else to say. If you can’t see the danger behind walking or cycling along a busy road with cars driving by at fatal speeds then I guess we just don’t look at life the same way.
Is an incredibly stupid take on why all obstacles should be removed. Maybe learn how not to hit things that are in the road? Do you hit a motorcyclist? Do you hit other cars? It’s that you are too entitled to slow the fuck down for one minute to safely navigate around an obstacle even when it means taking a human life.
We have the right to ride down the middle of the god damn road in Colorado. The road is not infrastructure intended ONLY for cars, that is just the way impatient people in cars view roads.
No one is arguing about your right to cycle down the road. No one is arguing about how it should be a safe activity.
All I am saying is that people driving cars are dangerous. I wish people were safer. The reality is they aren’t.
Why do you throw caution to the wind when you know people are dangerous and irresponsible?
We should have the expectation that people driving vehicles do so safely. We should have the expectation that people driving vehicles will do so responsibly around cyclists. Expectation is not reality unfortunately. No matter what your expectations are there will still be assholes driving vehicles. No matter what your expectations are it’s still a massive risk to cycle along busy roads. That’s a reality any cyclist needs to accept no matter what their expectations are. But you’d rather lash out at me.
You sound angry but you’re angry with the wrong person.
Just read some more about this accident, the road apparently had a shoulder and he was also riding on it.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/31/1191096086/cyclist-magnus-white-17-dies-accident-car-boulder-colorado?utm_source=flipboard&utm_content=RobertHalder%2Fmagazine%2FNews+Bites
Despite the tragically high number of totally unnecessary deaths, cycling is still a safe activity. Cycling on roads is a safe activity. The physical benefits of cycling massively outweigh the risks, even if you don’t wear a helmet and cycle in the middle of the road. Cycling adds years to your life, it doesn’t take them away. Your sophistry and concern trolling are just so fucking transparent.
No, driving cars is poor judgement.
Just how out of touch do you to be to post this in a fucking cycling forum. I dare not check the comment history of this specimen.
I know, how dare me suggest to people that they ride their bike literally anywhere else than a busy road with cars driving by.
Why are all of you cyclists completely brain dead?
You follow the rules as well as the typical motorist I encounter on the road.
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So then why are so many cyclists dying every year from getting hit by cars? If it’s perfectly safe, then no one should be dying.
Stop trying to convince me that cycling on the road isn’t dangerous. We all know we aren’t talking about cycling taken by itself in a vacuum. We all know the reason cycling is dangerous is due to the unpredictable and dangerous vehicles that are driving by.
The only way you’ll make the argument that cycling on roads is safe is if there are no cars around, and that cars are banned.
I am all for banning cars. But guess what, currently they aren’t. Therefore if you want to cycle on a road, you have to deal with the fact that cars will be driving by, and that’s the entire basis behind why cycling on roads IS A BAD IDEA.
The problem with you cyclists is that you just cannot connect the dots. Quite frankly, you just don’t give a fuck how dangerous it is, and you’ll do anything to convince yourself and others that it isn’t a dumb idea so you can keep doing what you’re doing without having to change your behavior.
This thread continues to demonstrate how poor your judgement is.
You don’t cycle, you are just pissed at cyclists when they slow you down for a minute every once in a while and probably have violent fantasies of running them over for causing this outrageous inconvenience in your oh so important and busy schedule. Fuck off.
Everything you listed there is an assumption and you’re just projecting. You can fuck off first.
Just get your lazy ass a minute earlier into your shitty truck and you’re good. No need to dream of running people over.
You sound unstable
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I used to be the type of person who would be quite anal about “no cycling on sidewalks!”.
But after being a cyclist for the past year, I fully support cyclists using the sidewalk when the roads aren’t safe enough.
Those sidewalks often don’t have pedestrians on them anyway, since they are in very car-centric (or truck-centric!) areas.
Cyclists die much more often per km cycled on the sidewalk compared to the road.
Yes, it’s more dangerous to ride on sidewalks ordinarily.
But much safer to be on a sidewalk than, for example, an underpass with no shoulder and trailers flying by.
It’s the lesser of two evils.
It’s also a point you should probably underline every time you publicly advocate for riding on the sidewalk. People do it because it feels safer, even when it is actually more dangerous. It needs to be done situationally, not by default.
For sure, which is why I made it a point to say “I fully support cyclists using the sidewalk when the roads aren’t safe enough.”
I’d never consider using a sidewalk if it’s a stroad, since there are too many exit and entry points for cars to kill you at. In that case, roads are still the lesser of the two evils.
That’s an excellent and illustrative example. I think most people who are not confident cyclists and have not checked the scientific research would have taken your original comment as encouragement to use the sidewalk on stroads.
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In the road cycling meccas in france and italy there are no shoulders on the road. Not sure how many fatal incidents they have. Saying it’s poor judgement to ride a bike on a road without shoulder seems kinda odd to me though. Narrow mountainous roads are my favorites really.
Cycling on roads is not poor judgment, apologizing for running people over is.
As a civil engineer who works for a municipality, roads are made for all road users, and cyclists have a right to ride on them, or take the entire lane if they feel it’s needed for their safety.
Cyclists totally comprehend how dangerous other road users, primarily vehicles are, but drivers don’t realize they drive what are essentially weapons, and every year American cars get a little heavier, and the nose a little higher, increasing the risk for all road users.