Imma be real with you, your messaging and vibe sounds like you’re worried about something like you see youtubers screaming about, like “woke” becoming law and having to call people by the right pronoun or go to jail. The only other people to use “authoritarian left” are usually terrible right-wing grifters and so-called centrists that use any opportunity to attack efforts by progressives.
So if you wanted to make your messaging connect better you need to be a lot more specific without being afraid to have a clear and tangible idea in your mind what exactly you’re talking about.
People always want to put me into one of the categories, give me a label, but I don’t really see the need for that. I’m not trying to be on a “team”, I’m just having a discussion. So many interactions on the internet (and politics in general) become a game of identifying which group you belong to and then saying either amen or completely ignoring the ideas or nuance that I enjoy discussing. It’s unfortunately rare to find a good discussion since most people are here to circle jerk about this or that. I think the most important thing is to maintain open discourse so we can freely exchange ideas and learn. That’s what I enjoy on lemmy, the only reason I’m here. Circle jerks are tiresome, boring, and only stoke anger, sow more discord between people, and make real progress harder. They contribute to making our political environment a zero sum game when it doesn’t need to be.
Everyone knows political discourse is really toxic, that’s why when you’re imprecise and hand-wavy about issues people will assume what your position actually is.
You mean it’s confusing if I use examples that aren’t consistent with a single political ideology? That’s exactly the point. My position is simply that Authoritarianism is not limited to a single political ideology, that it can come from either side. That’s it. That’s my position. You can call out conservatives for some bad things and progressives for other bad things, and both of them for authoritarianism if they do it.
That’s on them if they want to assume a motive beyond what I’m actually saying. But if you want an example of left wing authoritarianism, then I would start with the Chinese cultural revolution.
Do you seriously think that the Chinese Cultural Revolution is remotely applicable to the context of both this post and the current state of politics in the 21st century?
The reason you were hesitant to use that as an example is because you already know that people would glance right over it or tell you that you’re going off the road entirely. Being pedantic for the sake of pedantry is not a very popular stance, alternatively if you’re going into a post that is condemning right-wing authoritarianism, in a FORUM CALLED US AUTHORITARIANISM how well do you think discussion about a massively complex and foreign and historical period of Chinese history will be considered?
I am only prolonging this exchange because I don’t actually believe you. I think you’re trying to do an ol’ Enlightened Centrist take, which is also known as “I hate [modern leftist thing] but also don’t want to face the condemnation for overtly condemning things that make me uncomfortable so I will try to play neutral in the massively naive belief that both sides will think I’m nuanced and above criticism.” and you pulled the Chinese revolution out of your ass because someone is pinning you down.
Whatever, I’m sure if you really are that concerned about the USA having a… cultural revolution, then we should make sure we don’t elect authoritarians, which is what led to that Cultural revolution, a giant dictator trying to exert control. A dictator that was already in power, and pretending to be communist or socialist while mishandling policy and starving millions. It’s far less a right or left issue and a straight up authoritarian issue. The cultural revolution wasn’t sparked because people demanded basic incomes, it was a propaganda campaign to make people think they were starving to death because of the West, not because they were being controlled by a dictator. A tactic we see over and over again, which people would do here given the chance, and the people who have openly admitted that they WANT to do this are on the right. That’s the fucking context, that’s our worry, we don’t give a shit about China in the middle of last century.
During the cultural revolution, it was common to attack suspected bourgeois, or anyone who was “four olds” in an attempt to destroy old culture, old ideas, olds customs, olds habits, in struggle sessions. Basically they kept after someone until they confessed, sometimes to the death. It was a giant game to track down any remnant of conservatism and destroy it. Whatever the motives of the people in charge who started it, the driving force was authoritarian, left wing ideology that the people took up and embraced as their own. Are we close to that now? Maybe not, but it happens quick. You can argue that we are closer right now to the other half century old authoritarian state, fascism, but it’s besides the point I was making. As long as we agree that authoritarianism can be a left or a right thing, then I’m content. You won’t get a confession out of me.
Imma be real with you, your messaging and vibe sounds like you’re worried about something like you see youtubers screaming about, like “woke” becoming law and having to call people by the right pronoun or go to jail. The only other people to use “authoritarian left” are usually terrible right-wing grifters and so-called centrists that use any opportunity to attack efforts by progressives.
So if you wanted to make your messaging connect better you need to be a lot more specific without being afraid to have a clear and tangible idea in your mind what exactly you’re talking about.
People always want to put me into one of the categories, give me a label, but I don’t really see the need for that. I’m not trying to be on a “team”, I’m just having a discussion. So many interactions on the internet (and politics in general) become a game of identifying which group you belong to and then saying either amen or completely ignoring the ideas or nuance that I enjoy discussing. It’s unfortunately rare to find a good discussion since most people are here to circle jerk about this or that. I think the most important thing is to maintain open discourse so we can freely exchange ideas and learn. That’s what I enjoy on lemmy, the only reason I’m here. Circle jerks are tiresome, boring, and only stoke anger, sow more discord between people, and make real progress harder. They contribute to making our political environment a zero sum game when it doesn’t need to be.
Everyone knows political discourse is really toxic, that’s why when you’re imprecise and hand-wavy about issues people will assume what your position actually is.
You mean it’s confusing if I use examples that aren’t consistent with a single political ideology? That’s exactly the point. My position is simply that Authoritarianism is not limited to a single political ideology, that it can come from either side. That’s it. That’s my position. You can call out conservatives for some bad things and progressives for other bad things, and both of them for authoritarianism if they do it.
Then give some damn examples, otherwise you’re just saying stuff and leaving room for people to ASSUME what you’re trying to say.
That’s on them if they want to assume a motive beyond what I’m actually saying. But if you want an example of left wing authoritarianism, then I would start with the Chinese cultural revolution.
Do you seriously think that the Chinese Cultural Revolution is remotely applicable to the context of both this post and the current state of politics in the 21st century?
The reason you were hesitant to use that as an example is because you already know that people would glance right over it or tell you that you’re going off the road entirely. Being pedantic for the sake of pedantry is not a very popular stance, alternatively if you’re going into a post that is condemning right-wing authoritarianism, in a FORUM CALLED US AUTHORITARIANISM how well do you think discussion about a massively complex and foreign and historical period of Chinese history will be considered?
I am only prolonging this exchange because I don’t actually believe you. I think you’re trying to do an ol’ Enlightened Centrist take, which is also known as “I hate [modern leftist thing] but also don’t want to face the condemnation for overtly condemning things that make me uncomfortable so I will try to play neutral in the massively naive belief that both sides will think I’m nuanced and above criticism.” and you pulled the Chinese revolution out of your ass because someone is pinning you down.
Whatever, I’m sure if you really are that concerned about the USA having a… cultural revolution, then we should make sure we don’t elect authoritarians, which is what led to that Cultural revolution, a giant dictator trying to exert control. A dictator that was already in power, and pretending to be communist or socialist while mishandling policy and starving millions. It’s far less a right or left issue and a straight up authoritarian issue. The cultural revolution wasn’t sparked because people demanded basic incomes, it was a propaganda campaign to make people think they were starving to death because of the West, not because they were being controlled by a dictator. A tactic we see over and over again, which people would do here given the chance, and the people who have openly admitted that they WANT to do this are on the right. That’s the fucking context, that’s our worry, we don’t give a shit about China in the middle of last century.
During the cultural revolution, it was common to attack suspected bourgeois, or anyone who was “four olds” in an attempt to destroy old culture, old ideas, olds customs, olds habits, in struggle sessions. Basically they kept after someone until they confessed, sometimes to the death. It was a giant game to track down any remnant of conservatism and destroy it. Whatever the motives of the people in charge who started it, the driving force was authoritarian, left wing ideology that the people took up and embraced as their own. Are we close to that now? Maybe not, but it happens quick. You can argue that we are closer right now to the other half century old authoritarian state, fascism, but it’s besides the point I was making. As long as we agree that authoritarianism can be a left or a right thing, then I’m content. You won’t get a confession out of me.