I have been trying to get my partner into Pathfinder 2nd edition, and they do seem taken with it, however he’s been having some issues lately with PF2E. Notably, online. The more he gets into PF2E, the more hate he sees for 5E. He’s been playing 5E for years now and has invested a lot of time and love into the game, and to see it bad-mouthed online by a ton of people either because they think PF2E is better, or they don’t like the system, or because of the company that manages it, has been disheartening to him as of late.
He told me today that he might just stop playing altogether after he’s finished with his games because of the hate he’s been seeing online, and I would hate for him to drop something he loves and has invested so much time into because of some online hate comments coming from another community in an act of internet tribalism.
I tried telling him that people disliked D&D4E when it came out for various reasons, yet people still play it today, and that when I started playing 5E, 4E had the reputation of being the game that everyone hates, but he’s still focused on how people will bad-mouth 5E when they really have no need to. One example I can remember him seeing (and before I bring it up, I understand Reddit’s culture, but the large amount of forum posts are going to be on Reddit, especially for a large and insular hobby like TTRPGs) was on a Reddit thread of someone asking what an analogous spell or ability would be to some spell in 5E and one person commented something to the effect of “well, you could try using this spell/ability, but you won’t get the same effect as you would in 5E because 5E is just for auto-win stuff that doesn’t have the player trying hard” (moderately paraphrasing, but I think my point is conveyed well here).
Personally, I like PF2E over 5E, but I’ll still play both, mostly because most people will play 5E and not want to try and learn a new system, especially if it’s one that has a reputation of having exponentially more rules than the one they already know and are comfortable with. Does anyone have any tips for how I can help my partner here?
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Agreed that there are folks who are toxic towards 5E in PF2E forums and that that’s not ideal. Your partner is absolutely correct about that.
The thing to keep in mind is that that’s not a solvable problem, at its root. Complaining about toxicity in online forums is like complaining that rain is wet - you can’t stop it from being so, no matter how much you wish things were different. Which is not meant to be dismissive of your partner’s accurate observation but moreso shift his mindset from “this is unfixable” to “what can I do to make my experience better?”
So if we assume that online toxicity is something your partner or you are unable to do anything about, what are things you actually can do?
Mainly, your partner can address how he reacts to that toxicity. Take on the mindset that, “These are internet strangers! Their opinions aren’t truth!” And I’m not trying to say that he should completely ignore these people; some of them likely have valid opinions. In fact, he both can and should do his own research and, most importantly, develop his own opinions.
Someone says that “5E is just for auto-win stuff”? Okay, does that match his experience? Has he ever been challenged in his games? Seen a PC die? If he has then maybe that random internet stranger is wrong.
Someone says that WotC is a shitty company? Okay, do some research. Damn, they hired the Pinkertons to go after someone? Maybe they’re not actually a company your partner wants want to give money to.
And so on. Maybe the simplest way to do this is, when your partner tells you, “I read someone being mean about 5e” you just ask, “Do you agree with them?”
I mean I know the Internet is often a toxic place, but I don’t think telling him “oh well the Internet is just toxic, deal with it” would help the situation. I suppose one thing I’m looking for here is potentially an alternative to Reddit for searching up questions about Pathfinder such that he would avoid D&D comparisons in a negative light (I say a negative light just because Pathfinder was born from 3.5E, so comparisons are going to happen regardless because the two games are related).
Maybe the simplest way to do this is, when your partner tells you, “I read someone being mean about 5e” you just ask, “Do you agree with them?”
I mean I know he doesn’t, mostly because I’ve known him for a little over two years at this point.
I think the main issue is that people online are stating their opinion as fact or talking about PF2E and ignoring their biases against 5E. Asking people online to check their biases is a tall task I suppose, but I guess that goes back to my main question of this post of finding a knowledge center for Pathfinder that doesn’t include negativity towards 5E.
Have them check out the youtuber nonat1s. He goes over a lot of different rules for Pathfinder in a very non-toxic way.
I don’t think he should “just deal with it” though: I think he should critically engage with negative comments, form his own opinions, and then trust those opinions over those of an Internet stranger.
Which maybe is functionally equivalent to “just deal with it”? Feels different to me.
Also I went to the Pathfinder2E subreddit, ran some basic searches meant to evoke comparisons to 5E, and grabbed the top result for each: “how do attacks work” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/BBYlzCwVDl ), “advantage in PF2E” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/Yna9TGzAOu ), “warlock equivalent” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/umQ1Et6xhf ).
There are NO comments in ANY of those posts bashing 5e. On the contrary, there are dozens of comments that are all helpful, encouraging, and supportive.
So if you’re looking for a place that is generally positive and welcoming to new players, r/Pathfinder2E has been pretty good in my experience! It’s not perfect, of course. If you’re looking for a knowledge center that a) has people posting and talking and b) never ever ever portrays 5E negatively I don’t think that exists.
Anyways, hope your partner continues to enjoy ttrpgs regardless of the system!
The only thing is the comments that he’s found have been from that subreddit…
I know it’s not perfect, but it seems to be pretty prevalent based on the things my partner is searching (as he’s coming upon the negative comparisons a lot).
As a D&D hater, I don’t think this is a problem of the game, or even of the forums. Your partner doesn’t seem like the kind of person that can handle someone disliking something they like, and considering everything that has been happening in the past few years - or really, ever - with Wizards of the Coast and D&D, there’s no place where you won’t find people - rightfully - criticizing it.
If he truly loves it, just find people with similar taste and play with it them, taking opinions from random online folks so seriously to the point of considering dropping his hobby is a terribly harmful outlook, and not just centered on tabletop gaming.
I mean I criticize D&D all the time, but there’s a difference between criticizing the game and saying that the game is stupid or for babies or something (I’ve seen posts saying that 5E is for babies although those were from players of older editions of D&D).
Wizards of the Coast “running the game into the ground” is another reason he said he doesn’t see a reason in playing the game anymore, and I’ll give that one to him (although I will say that a table can simply opt to not play OneD&D and simply to just play regular 5E, I’d imagine people did that with 3.5E when 4E came along).
I just don’t see how this is a real issue and not something that can be solved with blocking users, hiding posts and moving on. That’s really bottom of the barrel as far as internet hate goes.
If this were somehow about being unsatisfied with the game or the company, I’d say “play something else”, there’s always other games but…its not even that? I don’t know, it just really seems like an extremely easy issue to solve - even if I wouldn’t call it an issue to begin with.
The main issue, and I’ve said this in another comment on this thread, is that he will have a question about PF2E and his first instinct is to go to Reddit or do a google search, which turns up with results from Reddit. He then maybe sees an answer to the question he was looking for, but he also sees unneeded hate directed towards the game he loves.
He’s said that the problem surrounding PF2E is the culture of the game, and I can honestly agree with him. People can be loud when they’re negative tbh, and moreso online. And it can’t really be solved with blocking users, hiding posts, and moving on like you say it can, because he’s shared with me several posts bad-mouthing 5E in favor of PF2E and they are all from different users. Yes, Archives of Nethys has the rules for free legally, but even I had questions going into running the game for the first time. What I did was read AoN as much as I could before running the game, but I am not my partner.
his first instinct is to go to Reddit or do a google search, which turns up with results from Reddit. He then maybe sees an answer to the question he was looking for, but he also sees unneeded hate directed towards the game he loves.
Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
“Don’t.”
I think typically a doctor would try to give alternatives to doing something that hurts the patient.
I think the main issue with 5E is that it’s so dominant and well-known people have been trying to make 5E into the game they want rather than seek a system more similar to their desires. 5E can be difficult, but at the many tables I’ve played at it’s almost guaranteed every party member will survive almost everything to preserve the narrative. It’s a system as forgiving as the table wants, and the table usually wants it to be forgiving.
It’s easy for one person to learn an entire system, but it’s easier for a DM to find players who already know 5E than to find a group of people willing to learn a new system. It can make people feel trapped by 5E.
Personally, I love the system but hate what Hasbro has done to the RPG community. While I’ll still probably play 5E since I’ve already had it for years, any purchase I make in the future will be from a third party or from a different publisher.
That’s fair, and I personally like PF2E better than 5E. After having GM’ed PF2E for about a year to a year and a half (this was from about 2021 to about 2022), I don’t feel like I could DM 5E again because it puts so much pressure on the DM to work (rulings over rules) and while some are okay with that, I personally don’t like it.
There isn’t one best tabletop RPG system, or one best edition of tabletop RPG system. There’s nothing inherently better about using one system over another. The only real difference is your own preference.
Like, Pathfinder, the first one, is a really interesting and robust system. It’s great if you know it, but if you don’t know it there are a lot of pitfalls and trap feats built in, and it can be hard to make a character that keeps up with the curve if you don’t know what you’re doing. Kind of reminds me of Magic: the Gathering in that; lots of options that seem good out of context, but aren’t really. That’s fine for some groups, for others it’s a lot of extra headache.
Does D&D 5e treat your characters as being more robust and capable than, say, AD&D 2e? Yes, absolutely. But like, even that is just the default behavior of the system. That factors in, but a competent DM can run a ruthless game in 5e too, it’s just a matter of shifting the numbers.
If your partner feels like 5e is too much of a power fantasy for his tastes, I’d recommend trying Dungeon Crawler Classics. You generate a handful of random level 0 characters and take like 4 per player into a dungeon that’s an absolute meat grinder for them. They progress, you add new level 0s if you need to, and you keep going. It’s a lot of fun watching your shitty little level 0 farmer grow into a fighter or a wizard or something. DCC is an absolutely ruthless system though, so be prepared to lean into it.
On the other hand, there is still plenty of AD&D 2e material out there. Maybe more than 5e, I’m not really sure. It was pretty robust, though, and less forgiving than 5e without being quite as bad as DCC, but your little level 1 wizard with 4 health can still get one-shotted by pretty much anything.
Of course, you can always just tune these systems to do what you want. Want to play 2e but don’t feel like figuring out how THAC0 works or ever bothering to calculate it? Great! Don’t. Just slot modern AC and hit rolls in. Start AC at 10 and when 2e says to go down, go up instead. Whenever something would make your THAC0 go down, treat that thing as an attack bonus instead. Hey, check it out, we’ve just stumbled into 3e’s Base Attack Bonus system.
Tabletop rule sets aren’t a god for you to worship, they’re a tool for you to make as flexible as you need it to be. Take the pieces you want, toss the pieces you don’t, add your own stuff. That’s how any of this stuff got made to begin with, and it’s how it progresses.
Want to make 5e more ruthless? Design an injury system and implement it.
But don’t just get sad that some people have some milquetoast criticism about the one edition you happen to have stumbled across first. Who cares? Check out some other systems and develop your own opinions and contexts.
I hope your partner sorts it out!
I just discovered milky toast thanks to you
This sounds like a difficult problem if he wants to continue browsing the Reddit community for pathfinder. I have seen these kind of people on D&D subreddits too, and it also put me a bit off trying pathfinder during the OGL drama.
Maybe there are other communities outside of Reddit that are able to provide the answers to questions, but I doubt you will escape this hate on the larger TTRPG subreddits.
if he wants to continue browsing the Reddit community for Pathfinder
I’ve tried talking to him about this and he’s said that that’s how he got into 5E, by trying to ask questions and finding answers online for them. And since PF2E has such a smaller community than 5E does, there aren’t many place to go find answers to questions.
Paizo does have old style forums, maybe those would be a better resource?
Perhaps, I’ll try recommending them to him as well, although I think I may have before
It’s too bad the Pathfinder instance.here on the fediverse isn’t still alive. That would’ve been a great place to cultivate an alternative community outside of Reddit.
Yeah, it does look like it’s dead, pretty much. I’d love to start something but between my two jobs and moving soon, I don’t really have the time
Everyone has their favorite system for tabletop gaming and some people like to define themselves by their hatred of other systems.
I’ve played a lot of systems. Savage Worlds, Gurps, ADnD, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, Pathfinder 2E, DnD 5E, the list goes on and on.
I do have preferences but I’m not going to hate on other systems.
Too many people can’t seem to enjoy something without hating on other people’s enjoyment of things.
Exactly, my motto is let people enjoy things if they’re not hurting anyone
Exactly
It’s like being in an ice cream parlor: there’s so many different flavors and everyone has their favorites. If I’m having rocky road and you’re having mint chocolate chip am I going to question why and get mad about it? Hell no, I’m just happy we both found ice cream we like. And hell I may grab some mint chocolate chip the next time I swing by.
Variety is the spice of life after all.
That’s such a great analogy, I just wish I felt more confident about sharing it with my partner.
I’d share it with him, it may be something he needs to hear
Plus working on your self confidence is important. Share the things on your mind. The more confidence you have in life the happier you’ll be.
Trust me: I used to have really low self confidence and I was miserable. I was always tiptoeing around those around me afraid to assert myself. Afraid to be me. The more I’ve opened up, the confidence I’ve built, the happier I’ve become.
I’ll share it with him tomorrow as it’s pretty late for me and I have work early. I’m simply just not super confident sharing the analogy with him will stop him from quitting the hobby altogether or at least stop him from playing Pathfinder
