Society’s got priorities wrong.
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most car travels are 1 person or sometimes 2 person
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the majority of car travels are quite short, less than 40km.
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many car travels are just to get some groceries or drop of a little package or just say “hi” to someone, carrying nothing but themselves.
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cars are fucking expensive, to buy and to maintain
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accidents become way worse with heavier vehicles
Microcar is a valid answer to all of these, while still being sheltered from weather.
How are urban places (i’m in Belgium) with almost permanent super heavy road traffic congestion, bad climate statistics, high polution values, very limited available space left, no self-sustaining energy production and high traffic accident statistics still pooring in billions and billions in subsidies year after year into “regular” big heavy SUV-like vehicles instead of these? It’s beyond my comprehension. The only real valid reason i somewhat get is the collective scare of being in a crash and not wanting to be in the smaller vehicle. We could save the climate, we choose not to.
- MICROLINO: 17.990 €
- OPEL ROCKS: 8.699 €
- CITROEN AMI: 7.790 €
- RENAULT TWIZY: 13.000 €
- FIAT TOPOLINO: 9.890 €
A lot of people here casually spend more on a sunday racing bike every few years for fucks sake.
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I get the points that you are trying to make but those micro cars are shit for the consumer for those prices. Yes, you have a small car that isn’t powered by fossil fuels, but
- You can’t transport jack shit. I’ve sat in the Opel thingy and while it’s comfortable for the two passengers you have literally no boot.
- If you consider one of those most likely you live in a densely populated urban area an can use public transportation as well. And one of the last things public transportation sucks, is transporting unwieldy stuff with you. And your mini car doesn’t provide a solution to this, so you have to pay a rental again.
- Those things are waaaaayyyy to expensive for what they offer. Atm you’re paying the early adopter premium to drive in a speed restricted, range restricted, and payload restricted vehicle for 10k.
I’ve been riding public transportation almost exclusively for the last 10 years or so and only had to consider getting a car for long distance travel and transporting shit. And at that point you’ll be better off spending 4-7k for an older station wagon than those things.
Also I’m not entirely sure how eco friendly it is to buy a brand new mini EV rather than driving around with a 15 year old car where nothing new has to be produced. Depends for sure on the yearly mileage. Which isn’t high in my case, but you for sure won’t be driving 15000 km a year in a mini car.
If we compare new regular and new EV? Sure, but then I’ll wait until real competitive alternatives in the low-price sector pop up.
They’re also ugly as shit, which unfortunately will affect adoption more than people care to admit. But then again, the PT Cruiser and Nissan Cube sold, so maybe I’m wrong.
I like the looks of them
Me too, they look cute and friendly. Unlike most new cars.
Fair enough
Wait, the looks of the micro car, or the PT Cruiser? I’m afraid we’ll have to have an argument if you meant the PT Cruiser.
You forgot to mention the GOAT of ugly cars, the Fiat Multipla.
I have a soft spot for that thing. It’s so ugly that it’s charming
I knew someone was eventually gonna name that monster; I didn’t know that people ouside of italy where aware of it. You know what’s the worst part? It’s actually very reliable, and drives decently; it’s just as ugly as the plague.
My parents had one when I was a kid, the second version was not to ugly and the interior was crazy comfortable for a family car.
It had 3 full front seat and 3 full seat in the back too.
A picture off the interior
Okay three full front and back seats sounds crazy in a normal sized car.
Christ, the arguments…
“It not pretty. I liky BIIIG car, angry headlights, grrr”
I can’t believe I still have to explain this to grown ups, people have different tastes. Especially when it comes to car design.
If there was a “best looking car” there would be 1 design on the market.
Very few people in the US would buy this car. We can look at how unpopular EVs were until Tesla made them “cool.”
Like or not, outside of car and anti-car communities, most people only want what’s trendy and these aren’t trendy. I appreciate that people in this community like the car, but we’re not exactly a majority in the US, and I live in the US so that’s the market I care about
You’d have a much easier time funding mass transit here than getting the average American into one of these.
Ah fuck, I keep foegetting that the world = US. My bad. Thanks for representing “the average american”.
Saying “These are ugly, that’s why no one’s going to buy them” is rage-bating.
The american fragile-masculinity-compensator-3000-supertruck enjoyers might hate these, but they’re just a minute subset of a subset of the drivers in the world.
Feel better? Any more strawmen you’d like to dress me up as?
It’s very humorous that you think I’m talking about large trucks as the alternative to these micro cars when I’m talking four door sedans and wagons; 4dr wagons are the most popular body style in Europe btw. Seems I’m right about the US market and the European market too. Best to not act holier than thou when your market isn’t clamoring for these vehicles either.
Hold up, you think a 5+seater monster is an alternative to a 2-seater microcar?
And you think that because the 2-seaters “are ugly” , people buy 5-door wagons? You’re high, right?
What is this logic, jfk…
Your logic is that people outside of the US will buy these. Yet they sell like shit in Europe. No, you brought up trucks. I and the person I responded to we talking about sedans and wagons. Fuck off troll
The most eco-friendly car is the one already in your driveway. Use it until it dies.
A study I had read suggested that if you have a reasonable gas car already (e.g. sedan not a gas guzzler), the impact of driving your gas car on the environment is equal to the production of a new EV if you drive the gas car 50k miles or less in its remaining lifetime. My secondary car barely gets driven a few thousand miles a year, so it is better for the environment to just keep it running than swapping it out for an EV.
Most people on most trips a vehicle carries jack shit. When you need that, you rent a larger vehicle.
Yes, urban area. No, public transport is shite. Very poor, very unreliable. It’s either car or bike for most people.
The here abundant big luxury cars ain’t cheap either. A porsche cayenne is not at all a rarity here. I’m quite sure it’s not the financial reason being the big one holding wider adoption of microcars back.
The government subsidizes the purchase of new vehicles in different ways here. It might not be economical to you at this point, but it all trickles down the market in 5-10 years time and then it will be very cheap and very available bottom of the second hand market if it’s what’s being supported with subsidies in the upper end of the market. For society as a whole in terms of eco friendliness, it for sure does make more sense people buying small new EV instead of big new luxury SUV-EV.
Man, your argumentation is all over the place. Adressing your points in the same order:
How often do you expect a person to resort to rental cars when they already invest 10k in a micro car with all running costs on top? A normal person that spends that amount of money doesn’t want to pay additional 50-200 Euro per trip for 5-10 times a year.
Generalizing that public transportation is shit doesn’t cut it if you want make a serious point. There are A LOT of people that could use public transport with minor habitual changes.
I’m talking to you that micro cars are too expensive compared to old station wagons and you jump to “big luxury cars are expensive”? Yeah no shit, Porsche drivers are for sure the general population and what micro cars are aimed at lmao. It is the financial reason for people with normal incomes: Nobody pays 10k for a glorified scooter with a roof.
it for sure does make more sense people buying small new EV instead of big new luxury SUV-EV
Yeah no shit, maybe you read my post again and see that I didn’t refute this point.
It might not be economical to you at this point, but it all trickles down the market in 5-10 years time and then it will be very cheap and very available
You do you. I’ll wait until proper low-end cars are out that are worth paying 10-15k. Shouldn’t take that long now that China has claimed this market and Europe and the US scramble to push out cheaper EV-cars instead of only selling bloated luxury EVs.
Yeah $10k can get a used Lexus in good shape. These things are just nowhere near cheap enough to not be able to carry groceries and kids. It’s the reason I never bought a smart car. $30k was just way too high for what it could do.
Be better off investing in mass transit, like you said
Them suggesting renting cars is also not super viable in most places. It takes at least thirty minutes to fill out the paper work and I don’t know anyone willing to do that for their weekly grocery trip
Them suggesting renting cars is also not super viable in most places. It takes at least thirty minutes to fill out the paper work and I don’t know anyone willing to do that for their weekly grocery trip
Yes this comes even on top. I did use a mix of train and rental cars for the last few years and man does it suck to regularly have to go through the rental process. Even if they don’t try to rip you off on old damages to get your deposit, paperworks and also having to drive to the hub is so inefficient.
In cities car sharing works OK (no time for paperwork etc.), but it still is relatively expensive.
At least in Europe is quite common I believe.
It is really cheap to have stuff delivered to your doorstep, by the way. You often don’t need to rent a big vehicle, what you need is to get something brought to your home.
Public transport just really is shit here. I’m sorry, it is. It sucks and everyone knows it. It’s used by underage pupils, poors and disabled people. Company is called DeLijn, you can look it up if you want to. It’s dirt cheap to use it, yet still very few people use it. It’s way too unreliable. Busses don’t show up unreliable.
I’m talking to you that micro cars are too expensive compared to old station wagons and you jump to “big luxury cars are expensive”? Yeah no shit, Porsche drivers are for sure the general population and what micro cars are aimed at lmao. It is the financial reason for people with normal incomes: Nobody pays 10k for a glorified scooter with a roof.
There are extensive subsidy regulations in place here, for example “salariswagen” with which employers can almost taxfree pay employees with a car in stead of money. This enforces an already strong way in which the “top of the new market” trickles down to the second hand market in 5-10 years. The cayenne is just to point out that this is not a poor region. Many people are wealthy enough for 8000 € to not be a very big spend. The government does subsidize other large SUV-like vehicle through this salary-car scheme. That trickles down very much. After 3 to 5 years of leasing the cars get second hand sold for still a decent price. 5 years later again. Another sale further down the road, it’s the station car you’ld currently rather buy than the microcar. The vehicles the government chooses to subsidize are a big influence in what will be available here in the second hand market in 10 years time from now. So yes, subsidizing small efficient cars over big SUV-style vehicles does make ecological sense.
Mate, this sub is full of yanks who are so blinkered in their worldview they have absolutely no clue how things are in other countries
Each point you make will be met with “Yeah but where I’m from…”
I mentioned once that everyone I know has a car but not one of them has an engine bigger than 1.6 litre. Stupid cunts called me a liar lol
They’re selfish cunts and will argue that black is white because of it. Let’s keep our adorable microcars for ourselves 😊
Why would you transport anything yourself when delivery from most shops is free? Doesn’t make any sense to waste time and money.
What cities actually need:
M E T R O
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Sometimes people do need a car, and if they do I would prefer it to be a small little thing like this rather than something larger.
These kinds of car are quite popular in Amsterdam, for instanceAmsterdam?
B I C Y C L E
I
C
Y
C
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E
I want to ride my bicycle, bicycle, bicycle
I want my country to have 1/10 the bicycle infrastructure of the Netherlands. We’re in the dark ages by comparison.
Still better than France or Germany though, at least we got that going for us
Metro unfortunately isn’t a solution in urban sprawled, urban planning disaster Flanders. It’s dense yet too spread out. Metro is good for very dense urban cores like Brussels. But it’s not the one big end all problems solution. Metro is part of what cities need, but not the only thing.
Metro unfortunately isn’t a solution in urban sprawled, urban planning disaster
It is, because it creates the nodes of transit around which higher density building can be built.
Urban sprawl is a consequence of poor mass transit, not a cause of it.
Here among other reasons it’s a historic consequence of few building regulations for 150 years combined with a dominant Christian party 150y actively trying to keep as many people as possible sprawled out in villages around cities because they thought masses moving to the cities would turn them into revolutionary heretic communists.
would turn them into revolutionary heretic communists
I mean, that’s just another advantage of having a metro
I think its more of a modern contrivance than that. The Robert Moses plan for New York was enormously profitable for real estate developers. There’s definitely a certain nostalgic element to the pastiche of smaller and more remote towns. But the modern suburbs system is far more about urban segregation and real estate commercialization (mega-malls, movie theaters, gas stations, etc) than economic evangelicalism.
i mean that just sounds like stockholm lol, also if you can’t quite justify a metro then you just build a baby metro, otherwise called light rail (or fuck it, actual tramlines)
a lot of it unfortunately is too sprawled for tramlines to make sense.
You can see the border between belgium and the netherlands on this pop density map: https://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/#9/51.2885/4.5607
Netherlands: “clustered towns with a center”. Flanders: “wtf just happened?” We have approximately 13.000 km of “linear settlement”
looking at the map, light rail seems like it should work fine? It’s not that sprawly, there are pretty clear urban clusters that you could just slap some rail onto the roads going between.
i think you’re presuming the transport has to be profitable? which obviously will only ever justify some subway lines in metropoles and train lines connecting major cities.
No it’s just always a battle for space. The linear settlements the old roads run through are wide enough for 1 lane in each direction, 2 narrow sidewalks and perhaps a narrow cycle path. Enter tram: it’s either stuck in traffic with the cars or they have to decide to ban cars and no longer serve the hundreds of driveways on a route, politicians don’t have the balls for that, not even the green ones. I wish they would.
Light rail to serve suburbs and buses within the suburbs :)
Idk why I saw this and thought use it as a super confusing battle ship board like TR mis
Looks like we are back to the 1950’s and the time of the “Smooch bubble” BMW Isetta. I always loved the look of this car.
BMW Isetta
Or, for our American audience, The Urkelmobile
Oh my God that’s what it is! I know this was familiar. The front wall is a door.
Liebe für die Knutschkugel!
Generally love microcars, especially the 50cc variant that, here in Germany at least, are really cheap to maintain because you pay no tax beyond the initial vat and insurance is like 50€ a year. Sadly the cars aren’t all that cheap with newer models easily surpassing cheap regular cars, rendering them kinda moot.
The microlino is litterally modelled after this classic!
I’d pay for one of these. The wheeled smartphones up there? I think not.
Hmm, I wonder how many of these cars are used to replace existing ones…
Most of the micro cars I see are parked by a highschool so to me it seems like people view them as a stop gap between no car and car ownership and not as a way to replace existing cars.
It’s making cars more viable, especially to young people and I fail to see that as a positive thing.
Here in italy they are mostly bought because you can legally drive them with the license you can get at 14y; essentially it’s used as a car to get to high school/ university where you rarely can find parking spots.
In France, they can be driven without a driver’s license if they don’t go faster than 45km/h, so they are exclusively used by alcoholics.
France. Not even once.
Okay, that’s stupid.
The very few I see around are either elderly people (it’s an excellent vehicle for them) or local firms buying it as a marketing gimmick.
These microcars can be very useful for people with disabilities or other special needs, but for everyone else the best car replacement is an electric cargo bike: they’re cheaper and give you more capacity for groceries.
I wouldn’t say they are usefully for people with disabilities. They have zero space to store a wheelchair or even simple crutches, even a cane would be problematic. They are hell to get in and out of because they are so low. On top of that, a person with a disability gets to feel at least some kind or normality when their behind the wheel of a car, because its not apparent from the outside whether the person driving is disabled or not. But with those things you stick out like a sore thumb on a road. You’re better off using a golf cart at that point.
I didn’t mention it because I assume everyone here knows all Not Just Bikes videos by heart, but there are microcars that are specifically made for wheelchair users.
Electric bike is superior in every way except for one - people in regular cars pretty much ignore bikes on the road where I live. If you don’t want to be randomly run over, you need to drive something car-shaped. Our cities are not bike-friendly, squeezing passenger cars out of the city roads using taxes and tolls could probably solve this, like in Amsterdam.
Electric cargo bikes are about the same price almost. Good electric cargo bikes are expensive too, and they don’t shield you from the weather and most models take up more space than the microcar. They do offer way more versatile ways of carrying stuff, yes. I’ld also love to see more electric Piaggio style tiny pick-up vehicles. Those are really rare here tho.
Edit: urban arrow for example is like 6.000 € new.
Sure you can spend up to that on an electric cargo bike. But you can also spend about half that.
maybe it’s prejudice, but i would never buy a decathlon bicycle. Local bike repair shops here don’t want to touch them so you need to get them to a decathlon for a fix. Kinda shitty when you’re bike’s broken. Because to get your bike there you need… a car.
Not sure how many bike shops would refuse a bike based on the brand, its. Even the Decathlon ones are using branded components(Shimano, Sram, Microshift) which are 99% of the time needs servicing and everyone is familiar with them(and quality-wise they are waaaay above the “supermarket” brands).
I am not saying your experience is not valid, just cant see why a repair shop would turn away a customer based on what is written on the bike.
Well their reasoning is “if you buy crap, go to the crap store you bought it”. Some also refuse cheap online bought bikes. They say the parts are inferior and no fixing can fix that, and they have plenty of work.
Tho I now see that decathlon recently started offering fix your bike at your home, so I guess my point became moot!
Sounds like you go to some snobby shops, the kind of place that will look down their nose at anything that costs less than 3 months salary.
In many places it’s not like you can choose between 10 bike shops. There’s 1 or 2 within walk/bike reach.
My bike cost just 600 € 5 years ago FYI. I didn’t buy a decathlon one because of the bike shops refusing them. Appearantly that’s not a reason to not buy decathlon anymore, but it for sure was before.
Ebikes for everyone else? There are places ebikes are illegal on the roads. That’s not the case for me but you still can’t use them, you will die. In more than a decade I’ve never seen a bike on the roads I commute to work on.
You see these fairly often in Amsterdam; half of them are driven by the elderly and disabled and the other half are driven by burgeoning adult daughters of the rich as some bizarre fashion statement. There’s a local company too called Heen & Weer (which means “there and back” or “back and forth”) who taxi the elderly and disabled in one of these for €1 a go, which is a splendid, splendid idea.
Is their logo this ))<>(( ?
I like the one on bottom right. So cute ❤️
The three at the bottom are all essentially the same car but with different trim from different manufacturers. The ‘original’ is the Citroen Ami and it’s an absolute blast to drive.
Yeah, they really are adorable. I really like the top left one. It looks really weird without ‘conventional’ headlights, but I kinda dig it. But I’d want it in bright yellow, or lemon green, or something. Cute.
Edit: but I would change the rims, I want the bottom right rims.
I personally saw almost all these models in Amsterdam and Belgium this year. They are pretty great addition to existing solutions like trams, metros, busses, and cycling.
No reason to need to have a 4 seat car when most of the time you may be the only person in the vehicle. Would be cool if we could find these in North America more easily. I do find our personal vehicles are becoming too large causing more sprawl and larger parking lots, which in turn nesesitates car dependency when everything is so far apart because of our vehicle infrastructure.
ie. When was the last time you walked across a Wallmart parking lot plaza to go to the store on the other side? Its usually quicker (and safer) to drive…
Yeah I visited France and Belgium a couple weeks ago and saw tons of these little dudes. It helps a lot if your cities are designed properly. In NA these would probably get totaled by monster pickups not seeing them.
where in Belgium if i may ask? Because they are not very common at all here imo.
Ieper. It was a really cute city with fantastic urban planning (although we only spent time in the downtown near the cloth hall). It was neat seeing the kids all riding their bikes to get everywhere. That being said, the tiny cars we saw were more common in France.
Okay, yeah Ieper is quite neatly planned for flemish standards. Poperinge too. I’m living more in the sprawl called Vlaamse Ruit: ghent, antwerp, Brussels, leuven… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Diamond?wprov=sfla1
Totally agree, our cars are too huge IMO, no need for it TBH. Its always great to travel the world (if you can). Nice to see the different ways people live.
I don’t know if I would dare to drive them on american streets with all these oversized and overly powerful cars.
In Europe we always had a tendency to smaller city cars. There is a huge market for these smaller cars, that you never even had available to you in the US, because it never was profitable to offer small cars in America.
I just imagined seeing a subcompact car like the Ford Ka or Fiat 500 on an US Highway and thats seriously meme worthy. In Europe these cars are totally normal and a fixed part of traffic since forever. From there the step to the EV minicars aren’t that big to be fair.
I’ve seen a few fiat 500s on the highways here, though more often the abarth(?) version. Not always though.
Nevermind all of that. The number one reason not to drive in Belgium is Belgian drivers. In other countries there’s the occasional assholish driver, in Belgium, it’s completely normal and expected to drive like a cunt.
There’s indeed a chance I’ll get myself hurt while forcing cars to stop at zebra crossings and giving drivers my middle finger when they’re blocking crossings while they’re in a traffic jam. German and Dutch drivers are really friendly by comparison.
Tbh France and Italy are like that too
Absolutely not. French drivers are curteous and friendly in comparison to the Germans, and infinitely better than the Belgians.
In Italy, you have to understand that you have to drive like the rest of traffic, in a flexible manner, and not strictly like the rules say, and it’ll go smoothly.
Cheap yes, but a person should also be asking “would it pass with the same ENCAP safety ratings as the above?”.
The Mini EV can seat four people, and standard features including air conditioning, power windows, stereo system, storage and compartments. Standard safety features of the Mini EV include anti-lock brakes, tire pressure monitoring sensors, and rear parking sensors. Early models did not include a driver airbag, but later models such as the Mini EV Macaron include the feature as standard.
That’s pretty crazy!
I just don’t think you should cheap out on 1t 60km killing machine.
The twizy is old, and nobody uses it.
The topolino, and opel rocks are a citroen ami, it’s just a rebrand.
The next generation of twizy is smarter, it will be a micro cargo car, it will be for deliveries in cities.Half of these are literally a citroen ami with a different plastic shell
That doesn’t make it a less good vehicle for how most people use their vehicle every day.
almost permanent super heavy road traffic congestion, bad climate statistics, high polution values, very limited available space left
Fixing that starts with congestion charges. If the charges go up with more polluting and heavy vehicles, electrical lighter vehicles and public transportation suddenly become a lot more interesting.
Hate how inefficient the market is, mostly because of alcohol and now mobile phones while driving, safety has made larger cars more marketable. I don’t trust my fellow Americans to drive properly and not crash into me with their oversized trucks that never do any trucking work
That sounds like you guys over there get into serious traffic accidents regularly. The last few accidents in our family (as far as I know) were all collisions of someone bumping into our car from behind at very low speeds, hardly any less safe in a smaller car.
What I would consider is if I can see a child playing if it sat somewhat close to the car while I’m behind the wheel. These kind of accidents are way too common in my opinion.
Americans don’t care about children https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-are-getting-bigger-are-front-blind-zones-children-rcna52109
Drive in dense traffic in a vehicle with effectively no crumple zones? Hard pass.
Climate change can’t kill you if everyone else does first
welcome to the arms race.
They don’t have much power and don’t go very fast.
the problem isn’t that these ones don’t, it’s that others do
Of course, but I guess this is also a problem with infrastructure. As a European, I think “Great, that’s way safer than a bicycle”. But the US isn’t a place for bicycles either and when you have to share the streets mainly with overpowered SUVs, then of course it’s getting exponentially more dangerous.
What you need is infrastructure that gives space to smaller transportation modes. This is something you need to resolve in politics. In Europe infrastructure for non-cars is a major campaign topic. Politicians care about it, because the public does. If you as voters don’t make it known that you need alternatives to cars, your infrastructure will never reflect that. Hold your politicians accountable and vote accordingly.
After getting stuck in traffic jams in both a giant land yacht 56 bel air and a tiny little 00 z3 crumple zone is kinda the least of my worries compared to getting cramps in my compact z3 my time in car centric Florida I was really begging to just have bench seats so I can at least stretch my legs inside my car
