But the comment I was responding to is basically saying “We have to support Biden’s genocide and turn to fascism because the GOP’s brand of facsism would be even worse”.
Even if you accept that argument, or believe the tradeoff is worth it, those advocating it for always conspicuously leave out the moral hazard portion of that equation in regards to the message their unwavering support sends to the Democratic party leadership:
No matter what you do, including actively contributing to a genocide, we will still vote for you to keep the GOP from power.
Personally, I think one openly fascist party is already too much in our two party system and believe we shouldn’t take anything off the table to prevent us from having two of them.
I don’t really follow it but I see enough headlines around to wonder, all of Trump’s legal trouble aren’t going to be a barrier? It’s still allowed? The party is corrupt enough to feel confident supporting him anyway? Do I want to know the answers to these questions?
The Supreme Court of the United States is currently hearing arguments on whether Trump has immunity from criminal acts until Congress does the political act of impeaching in the House and convicting in the Senate. Meaning this congress or a later congress would first have to impeach, convict, and remove from office a president that is already out of office.
It sounds silly because it is, but the justices Trump appointed appear to have his back and are prepared to make that decision in his favor.
So we are close to seeing if Trump’s legal troubles will be politically whisked away so he can get re-elected or not.
The party is supporting him either way, regardless of a legal ruling or any regard to the law.
Yes, voting for the party and candidates that I want to vote for based on my own convictions - which right now doesn’t include any national Democratic candidates.
If you’re happy with the Democratic party, then vote for them.
If you believe that the path of Democratic party is headed on is acceptable, then vote for them.
If you can accept that the Democratic party will only get worse from here, but believe that’s still better than the GOP, then vote for them.
Yes, voting for the party and candidates that I want to vote for based on my own convictions - which right now doesn’t include any national Democratic candidates.
Sure sounds nice on paper, but what do you expect to achieve by doing this?
What do you think would happen if everyone who is disillusioned with Biden but isn’t a Trump supporter voted 3rd party?
Why does my vote have to align with your internal political game theory monologue?
Just FYI your hypothetical would be the biggest electoral defeat for an American party in modern history and would probably force the Democrats to actually to be responsive to their base.
Think of all the policies that the Democratic base want, but that the current iteration of the party refuses to deliver on: Medicare for all, Israeli policy, Pro Act, tax reform, expanding social safety nets, etc.
But, again, I’m just voting my own conscience. You support what your conscience tells you to.
Just FYI your hypothetical would be the biggest electoral defeat for an American party in modern history and would probably force the Democrats to actually to be responsive to their base.
Maybe they’d learn their lesson. But if instead a non-negligible fraction don’t vote for Biden, he’ll likely still lose and the DNC definitely won’t learn their lesson.
But whether or not the DNC “learns their lesson” may be a moot point: the goals of the Republican Party include eroding the civil rights of LGBT, immigrants, and women, as well as dismantling our democracy in general. This is not coming from DNC propaganda, this is coming directly from the mouths of republicans, as well as examining their actions on all of these topics while Trump was in office.
I don’t expect Biden to make anything better. I do expect Trump to really, tangibly make things a lot worse. Again, this is no “what if”, Trump was president and did make things worse, and he and other republicans have stated their goals for next time.
As for making actual progress, if Biden wins this election, especially if he wins by a significant margin, then the Republican Party might rethink their strategy, which would lead to a much healthier election in the future. Additionally, after this election (if Biden wins) he won’t be able to run again and the DNC will have to pick some form of fresh blood. That’s a far better opportunity to actually work on improving the system.
So if the Democrats lose power, that will actually help their leadership retain their hold on power.
But if the Republicans lose power, it will actually help the party heal, presumably because it cause a change in GOP party leadership?
Tell me, what font of political wisdom and experience are you drawing upon to arrive at these conclusions?
Because as someone who’s actually lived and worked in and around party politics for most of my life, I got to tell you, what you’re saying doesn’t align with what I’ve seen.
I don’t really believe either party is likely to change their tactics regardless of the outcome. Frankly, if Trump wins the election, regardless of the margin, then I’m 2028 I’d expect to see Biden running again (assuming our political system is in a state where that’s possible in 2028).
What I hope for is the total collapse of one of the political parties such that a 3rd party can compete. I think that the republicans are far closer to that level of collapse than the democrats.
However, more so, I am afraid of the effects of another Trump term continuing the path he started in his first term and/or following the project 2025 plan. Trump’s first term had a lasting effect on the ability of this country to make positive change, and I fear that a second term will only make it worse.
In summary, I believe the change you and I want won’t happen quickly under Biden, but won’t happen ever under Trump.
They will be the two major party candidates.
But the comment I was responding to is basically saying “We have to support Biden’s genocide and turn to fascism because the GOP’s brand of facsism would be even worse”.
Even if you accept that argument, or believe the tradeoff is worth it, those advocating it for always conspicuously leave out the moral hazard portion of that equation in regards to the message their unwavering support sends to the Democratic party leadership:
Personally, I think one openly fascist party is already too much in our two party system and believe we shouldn’t take anything off the table to prevent us from having two of them.
They are 81 and 77, theres still hope one (or both) of them die before it’s too late.
One wonder why the Democratic Party should even bother since there will always be a boogeyman that will make them go “It’s either us… or them”.
I don’t really follow it but I see enough headlines around to wonder, all of Trump’s legal trouble aren’t going to be a barrier? It’s still allowed? The party is corrupt enough to feel confident supporting him anyway? Do I want to know the answers to these questions?
The Supreme Court of the United States is currently hearing arguments on whether Trump has immunity from criminal acts until Congress does the political act of impeaching in the House and convicting in the Senate. Meaning this congress or a later congress would first have to impeach, convict, and remove from office a president that is already out of office.
It sounds silly because it is, but the justices Trump appointed appear to have his back and are prepared to make that decision in his favor.
So we are close to seeing if Trump’s legal troubles will be politically whisked away so he can get re-elected or not.
The party is supporting him either way, regardless of a legal ruling or any regard to the law.
You got a better plan?
Yes, voting for the party and candidates that I want to vote for based on my own convictions - which right now doesn’t include any national Democratic candidates.
If you’re happy with the Democratic party, then vote for them.
If you believe that the path of Democratic party is headed on is acceptable, then vote for them.
If you can accept that the Democratic party will only get worse from here, but believe that’s still better than the GOP, then vote for them.
You do whatever you feel is best for you.
Sure sounds nice on paper, but what do you expect to achieve by doing this?
What do you think would happen if everyone who is disillusioned with Biden but isn’t a Trump supporter voted 3rd party?
Why does my vote have to align with your internal political game theory monologue?
Just FYI your hypothetical would be the biggest electoral defeat for an American party in modern history and would probably force the Democrats to actually to be responsive to their base.
Think of all the policies that the Democratic base want, but that the current iteration of the party refuses to deliver on: Medicare for all, Israeli policy, Pro Act, tax reform, expanding social safety nets, etc.
But, again, I’m just voting my own conscience. You support what your conscience tells you to.
Maybe they’d learn their lesson. But if instead a non-negligible fraction don’t vote for Biden, he’ll likely still lose and the DNC definitely won’t learn their lesson.
But whether or not the DNC “learns their lesson” may be a moot point: the goals of the Republican Party include eroding the civil rights of LGBT, immigrants, and women, as well as dismantling our democracy in general. This is not coming from DNC propaganda, this is coming directly from the mouths of republicans, as well as examining their actions on all of these topics while Trump was in office.
I don’t expect Biden to make anything better. I do expect Trump to really, tangibly make things a lot worse. Again, this is no “what if”, Trump was president and did make things worse, and he and other republicans have stated their goals for next time.
As for making actual progress, if Biden wins this election, especially if he wins by a significant margin, then the Republican Party might rethink their strategy, which would lead to a much healthier election in the future. Additionally, after this election (if Biden wins) he won’t be able to run again and the DNC will have to pick some form of fresh blood. That’s a far better opportunity to actually work on improving the system.
So if the Democrats lose power, that will actually help their leadership retain their hold on power.
But if the Republicans lose power, it will actually help the party heal, presumably because it cause a change in GOP party leadership?
Tell me, what font of political wisdom and experience are you drawing upon to arrive at these conclusions?
Because as someone who’s actually lived and worked in and around party politics for most of my life, I got to tell you, what you’re saying doesn’t align with what I’ve seen.
I don’t really believe either party is likely to change their tactics regardless of the outcome. Frankly, if Trump wins the election, regardless of the margin, then I’m 2028 I’d expect to see Biden running again (assuming our political system is in a state where that’s possible in 2028).
What I hope for is the total collapse of one of the political parties such that a 3rd party can compete. I think that the republicans are far closer to that level of collapse than the democrats.
However, more so, I am afraid of the effects of another Trump term continuing the path he started in his first term and/or following the project 2025 plan. Trump’s first term had a lasting effect on the ability of this country to make positive change, and I fear that a second term will only make it worse.
In summary, I believe the change you and I want won’t happen quickly under Biden, but won’t happen ever under Trump.
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