- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
But W.V. believes his daughter “is vulnerable and is not competent to make the decision to take her own life,” according to Feasby’s summary of the father’s position.
“He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions.”
Her only known diagnoses described in court earlier this month are autism and ADHD.
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I lost my first born to suicide 10 years ago. It was their 6th known attempt in 7 months. We were doing everything we could to help them. The only thing i would have done differently is been there to hold their hand and say goodbye. We knew it was going to happen, it was a matter of how and when.
I know it probably doesn’t mean much from an internet stranger, but I’m sorry for your loss. I couldn’t imagine that kind of pain, since you never expect them to go before you. 😢 Thank you for sharing your story.
He has no idea what her life is like from the inside or what degree of suffering she may be experiencing, because he is not her. All he knows is that her opting for MAID will cause him suffering.
If she’s competent to manage her own finances and legal affairs, she’s also competent to make this decision. Either she is an independent adult, or she is not. There’s no halfway.
You also don’t know what she’s going through either because the article did not provide any detail at all. For all we know, she could have an easily treated chemical imbalance. I think the point is that a 27 year old without a terminal illness shouldn’t just be able to commit medically assisted suicide.
I don’t know what this person has gone through because it doesn’t say in the article, but 27 is still young. It’s also possible that this is a huge mistake that she would regret with hindsight (well SHE wouldn’t, but all of her loved ones certainly would).
That’s the fun part, you don’t get a say in her life without her consent. We don’t choose to be born but we sure as shit get to choose what we do while we’re here. It doesn’t matter what you think because this isn’t about you.
If it’s “an easily treated chemical imbalance”, they would have diagnosed it by now. The MAID process is far from instantaneous. She’s had plenty of opportunity to be evaluated, and her father has had plenty of opportunity to persuade her to be evaluated.
On a philosophical level, why shouldn’t a healthy 27 year old be able to opt out?
Because with experience comes wisdom. It sounds like she was trying to become eligible under the mental illness section from the one line we are given from the father who said she is in reasonably good physical health.
If it is depression or something, it’s possible with treatment that she could look back on it one day as a dark period, but one she’s glad she made it through. Things that were once so major in life might become minor in the long run.
What if it’s 27 years of suffering?
Dude. There is this thing called “treatment-resistant depression” that medicine still can’t find any way to help. A diagnosis of “depression” doesn’t mean that anything can be done.
Chances are good this woman has already been through treatment and psychiatric evaluation to get her existing diagnoses.
This is pretty much what I’m dealing with. All the medicine I’ve tried just makes me a zombie and that’s even worse. With those meds all I wanted to do is sleep because of the depression and all my body wants to do is sleep because of the medicine… So not only did it not work, it made life more difficult.
I appreciate everything you’re saying. And I tend to agree with the things.
Not talking about this person in particular, but a completely healthy individual who has decided for their own reasons to exit. Why should anybody else get a say in that?
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I can’t even begin to imagine your feelings. I’m so sorry you went through this.
I’m truly saddened by your story, but thank you for sharing it. And unfortunately the stigma and shame that comes with things like ADHD can be overwhelming. It is easy to go down the rabbit hole of “if only I could be normal…”, or “what would my life be like if I didn’t have ADHD…” and quickly lead to depression and more guilt.
The rate of death by suicide is alarmingly high among neurodivergent individuals, which is a real issue needing more attention. We need to work to demolish the stigma of these diagnoses, and make it a world where people can feel comfortable asking for help.
Ok this has brought me down, so I’m done in this thread for a bit, maybe I’ll check back later.
Even your phrasing has a “Like a pet” vibe.
Looks like Reddit is leaking again.
My wife has an illness that sounds similar (I’m her full time caregiver, unfortunately). We get this “it is all in your head” bullshit all the time. But I see my wife suffer unbelievably every day. Fuck this father.
And everyone should have the right to do as they wish with their own body.
Sounds similar to what? They didn’t describe the contributing factors at all in the article.
For all we know she has depression or some other chemical imbalance that could be treated and she would have a perfectly normal life. And fuck the father for loving his daughter? You’re clearly not a parent…
We know it’s not what you said because those are not reasons allowed for MAID at this time.
Stop trying to make decisions for others. You don’t know better (or anything beyond the article) and you’re assuming you do. You’re literally pushing for more suffering in the world and for people to not have their own say over their lives and their bodies. What makes you so special? You don’t get a say.
I am a parent of an adult. I agree with the comment you replied to, even though it would cause me great personal suffering to lose my child. I love them enough to prefer then not suffer to appese me. They’re happy, but it could easily be different. I’m lucky.
Two doctors signed off. They don’t offer this service for depression or small issues. Right to Die movement is for people who are beyond having quality of life that gives them enough satisfaction to deal with their illness.
See How to Die in Oregon. In this docu, there’s a woman with a tumor who fights to be a part of the world until it looks like she swallowed a large football. That’s the point when she chose to end it. She clearly wanted to live but it just stopped being worth the suffering.
She is 27 and still living at home where the article describes the dad as her caretaker. She has both an autism and ADHD diagnosis, but Dad thinks all her physical symptoms derive from her making them up, because he believes her to have an undiagnosed mental illness. I’m just one person that believes they are on the spectrum (with ADHD), but physical symptoms are real. Having a caretaker that refuses to believe you is not going to make for a great life. Especially depending on your symptoms, which again because she is 27 and still at home with a parental caretaker, I’m guessing that they are pretty involved.
Also, these are often both genetic and passed down from a parent, so where is mom in this scenario? And might that also be playing a part in this?
Anyhoo, my 2 cents.
You would think that when the person you’re taking care of would rather kill themselves than spend another day with you, you’d notice that you’re doing something very, VERY wrong.
Holy shit is that is a very bad take!
You don’t know a thing about this guy. And to put all her pain on him without knowing shit about either of them is completely out of line.
And it is possible to be surrounded by love and still have a void that cannot be filled. Just knowing you’re “different” can be a mind job in and of itself. But making this all about the dad diminishes her feelings, her pain, her guilt.
/rant
Except yes I totally can make it about them because having a support network that produces negative results is why this sort of thing happens.
I’m going to play the otherside argument: if there are underlying mental health issues you can sometimes do everything right and the loved one isn’t able to receive it or process it without a negative filter and they want to leave the world anyway.
We had this happen with a family member. Validation, love, therapies, medicine changes, activities. Their brain just was not working right and thought our love etc were “faked” so you make them less guilty. Had MAID been an option they would have chosen it.
They had a suicide attempt that 99% should have killed them. From extreme trauma their personality was fractured, as it came back together there was a eureka moment for them.
They occassionally struggle with bad days when idle, but overall they say they can’t believe they were trapped in that mindspace and couldn’t see how much they were valued and loved. They, and we, are thankful for this second opportunity.
Not everyone can be “fixed” or their suffering eliminated, but every single case is unique…and family want to hope that person see the otherside.
But I will 100% vote in favour of people having this choice, because if somebody lives to 90 and everyday was hell then that is not living anyway
Yeah, you clearly understand the situation better than her fucking parents, from the shitty news stories.
Chill out, this isn’t reddit
Not to completely shit on dad here either, it could well be that he is also on the spectrum and has lived in an environment that has instilled in him that you just ignore your needs because that makes you “normal”. That is why I was wondering about mom, as it is more than likely one of them is on the spectrum also and perhaps just never diagnosed and their child being diagnosed has unlocked some shit.
Anyways I’m not a psychiatrist, just going through my own adult realization of things, and it’s not easy.
Dad could be exacerbating symptoms.
MAID can’t be consensual under capitalism, but all beings which exist have an inherent right to end their own existence whenever they decide to.
This wouldn’t be a discussion if a 27 year old shot themself, huffed an asphyxiant, or jumped off something high.
What in the world has capitalism to do with this?
Because if you’re not working 40+ hour work weeks (which is new in our physiology coming from pre industrial average of 15 hour work weeks) then you’re made to feel inferior and less worthwhile under capitalism. This disproportionately effects those with disabilities.
Especially when it takes more than 40 hours to “earn” a living.
Oh come on, don’t tell me you believe that nonsense? Please don’t. Compared to pre industrial humans, we live better than kings, and we work probably more like half less than they had to.
Yes, there are issues with current capitalism, but you’re taking about a fantasy world. How the hell do you think people worked the land before tractors and machinery? How much do you think they got off the land, compared to modern farmers? Howuch time do you think they had to spend on luxuries?
Seriously, give your comment just 10 seconds of actual thought.
You are parrotting dumb slogans and empty claims that you either read somewhere and just copied without actually using your brain, or you made it up. I’m not sure which, but both are bad.
How about you read up on some actual history? Life pre industrial age was hell bd then you die. During industrial age it was shit. With the enlightenment things slowly became better and where we are right now is the point where we have forgotten what it really is to suffer, so we make crpa up put how bad we have it.
Hint: there are many issues, but dude, you don’t have it that bad
Compared to pre industrial humans, we live better than kings, and we work probably more like half less than they had to.
And yet with more than enough food to feed everyone and 30 times as many vacant homes per unhoused person, people still starve and die of exposure on the streets.
Compared to pre industrial humans, we live better than kings
people still starve and die
Your entire argument is a false comparison between “we live better than medieval peasants” and “but people are still homeless”?
You’ve heard the saying that “perfection is the enemy of progress”, right?
“perfection is the enemy of progress”, right?
Isn’t there a difference between people starving when there isn’t enough food and having more than enough food you allow to rot so a small percentage of people can live as kings?
You get how that is different, right?
How many people dying while there are resources to prevent their dying is too many?
Are unhoused people an acceptable sacrifice to Mammon in your view?
Uh huh, that’s correct, and that is very bad and need to be fixed.
What doesn’t happen anymore though is that 90+% of the population was continuously semi starving. What doesn’t happen anymore is 30+% of the population being wiped out from diseases. What doesn’t happen anymore is families having 12 kids so that 4 might make it to adulthood.
I can go on for a bit, but suffice to say that life now is a hundred times better than life 200 years ago, even for the poor, hell, even for the homeless. Even the homeless still get some form of hospital care and food.
Yes, there are still hundreds of problems that need to be resolved, that doesn’t mean that today were off worse than back then
Why do you assume people arguing (correctly) against the evils of capitalism want to go back to say feudalism and not progress toward a just system that respects universal human dignity and does not require human suffering to grease the wheels of machinery which lines a tiny % of pockets?
Bingo.
What in the world has capitalism to do with this?
Nothing can be consensual under a system which privatizes the means of life and coerces behavior to attain access to natural resources everyone needs and no one made.
That… Is a collection of slogans mixed with impressive mental gymnastics. You put down words but it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. You have no idea how euthanasia works, or the justice system, or capitalism, and at this point I wonder what you do know.
You almost sound like an AI bot, am I talking with an AI bot?
it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
I could forward you some reading if you’d like to be less ignorant, though I have my doubts you desire to be.
You almost sound like an AI bot, am I talking with an AI bot?
If you can’t tell it sounds like I’ve passed the Turing, at least.
Oohh, you read das Kapital, why didn’t you say so? This of course means that you’re totally right in every subject, can do no wrong, even though what your saying is at best a non sequitur.
Oohh, you read das Kapital
Where did I say I’ve read Das Kapital? Das Kapital isn’t even the book I linked you.
< click link >
Marx’s Das Kapital for beginners
That’s the true choice here: we allow someone to end it cleanly, or we must accept they’ll end their own life messily and brutally.
You can’t get organ donations from a OD or a traumatic impact.
Assisted suicide should only be available for terminal patients or those in unrelenting physical pain with no possibility of a cure.
What gives you the right to police other people’s bodily autonomy?
They can do it themselves but giving them the legal outlet makes it so much easier for those that are just heavily depressed, when with some effort they could live along and fulfilling life.
Sometimes they can. And maybe that’s something that your overly optimistic perspective needs to realize.
Some of this is going to come across nasty, but it’s not, it’s an honest exploration of something worthy of deep analysis and discussion.
Who put you in charge? Who puts anyone in charge? Why should anyone get to decide the arc of someone else’s life? Why should someone else get to dictate the terms of anyone’s life and death?
Whenever I hear someone expressing sentiments like “… with some effort they could live along and fulfilling life”, it puts me in mind of all those busybodies who lament or even disapprove of my choosing labour over post-secondary education because I wasn’t meeting my potential. No, I was meeting my potential just fine, even excelling. I’ve had a very fulfilling life, I just wasn’t doing what others thought I should be doing. I was not being lazy by not putting in “some effort.” I was making choices based on who I wanted to be and how I wanted to live.
What is within us that leads us to demand that others live up to our standards? What is within us that makes it so difficult to see that what is a reasonable effort for one may be an insurmountable obstacle to others?
To get mundane, I find it just about as easy to swim 5k as 2k and 10k isn’t much harder, yet I get the impression that most people think of even 2k as beyond their capacity. Would it not be an insult to their very personhood to just call them lazy, the way you imply that this poor soul is just lazy?
We all have different capabilities and capacities. What is within us that insists that we are the standard by which others must be judged?
Some people cannot find the internal resources to continue. What makes the beating of their hearts so important to us that we ignore their own desires? That insist they fight, even after they have no fight left?
I never said anybody was lazy. It’s the difference between somebody being depressed at home and somebody being depressed being given a gun. It makes the choice of suicide that much easier.
Based on this comment, I suspect that your real intention was to argue for the appropriate supports rather than applying sufficient effort. Fair enough, but let’s more closely examine what you actually said:
… with some effort they could…
You did not say “with the right supports…” you said “with some effort…”
Further, “with some effort” implies that there had been no effort to date.
I appreciate that none of us perfectly express our true thoughts when speaking or writing off the cuff as we do here. If you are now saying that you meant “with the right support”, I accept that without question. But if you actually meant that a suffering person must be expected to make efforts that would challenge the strongest of us, then I stand by my contention that you called them lazy.
They don’t have to do shit.
Ok, despite having a graduate degree I can’t work because of mental illness. My choices are either die of exposure once my savings run out or take a concrete high dive. You can start paying all my living expenses so that I can have a decent quality of life. Otherwise, shut your mouth. You don’t know anything about other people’s suffering.
There are definitely services so you’re not homeless but you said it yourself. You can take the option to off yourself. Don’t put it on the state.
I would rather let people, supported by the medical system, make their own decisions about what is right for them. There’s zilch information about what this person is dealing with (as is their right to privacy), but two doctors believe that it is sufficient that a request for MAID is justified. It’s pretty hard for me to believe that we, as armchair experts, know what is best for this person - which is basically the ruling of the judge. It doesn’t matter what we, or the person’s dad think, it’s none of our business.
Give people no option to do it painlessly and cleanly, and they’ll do it painfully and brutally.
You’re not going to stop people from ending their own life by saying it can’t be done properly.
Mon oncle left us 2 years ago because managing his particular circumstance during covid would risk his vulnerable grandchild.
My dad has a condition which will kill him very slowly or not, but before he loses his autonomy he signed his DNR and has a living will that includes a MAID clause. He is in no extra physical pain, and enjoys woodworking and telling stories and cooking pancakes for his kid’s kids, but this thing lurks and it will kill him if nothing else does it sooner.
I miss my wonderful uncle every day, as he was the vibrant centre of a rich arm of our otherwise dour family. But he made his choice and we respect that because we respect him. My dad will leave this planet according to a set of circumstances and criteria and we will let him because he has ever charted his own path, and he will chart his own exit.
You just take care of your own self. You leave us to us.
