Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said policy differences toward Israel between her and President Biden won’t stop her from supporting him in the November general election.
“Of course,” Omar said Tuesday, when asked by CNN’s Abby Phillip on “NewsNight” whether she would vote for Biden if the election were held that day, in a clip highlighted by Mediaite. “Democracy is on the line, we are facing down fascism.”
“And I personally know what my life felt like having Trump as the president of this country, and I know what it felt like for my constituents, and for people around this country and around the world,” Omar continued. “We have to do everything that we can to make sure that does not happen to our country again.”
I don’t understand why people don’t realize that trump is also a Netanyahu ally. They’re old pals.
It’s not like trump winning over Biden would change anything about the US policy on Israel- except probably make it worse, and trump winning over Biden would definitely make things in the US and pretty much everywhere else US policy affects worse.
As always, you can come right out and say you’re supporting Biden and say that Trump is worse, and you can count on someone to ignore it and lecture anyway.
“I will never vote for (Palestinian) genocide! But I will definitely refuse to vote against (Ukranian) genocide!”
Either they’re wedge-driving russo/right-wing bots, or they’re grandstanding only to shoot themselves in the foot on an issue they claim to care about.
Any rational person understands more people will suffer in both Gaza and Ukraine under Republican leadership. Period. That’s it. End of story. It’s election season, time to fall in line to save Democracy… Again.
I see what looks like a lot of virtue signaling. They have to let everyone know how extremely against genocide they are so that their social media peers recognize how decent they are. Stops them from seeing any of the many bigger pictures involved.
I had one (my first block here) that was trying to say that it was unknown whether Biden could be trusted to leave office after his second term voluntarily and that they were both dyed in the wool fascists but of course he(/she/they/it) defended only Trump throughout the thread.
i say we vote blue no matter who while making community allies and arming ourselves. the two are not incompatible.
Doesn’t sound like much of a democracy if I don’t really have a choice, now does it?
You have a choice. Getting everything you want is just not one of the options.
Yeah you get to make the choice, but don’t get to influence what the options are.
Well, you can have some influence via primaries, either voting, donating, or campaigning. But once the nominations are in place it’s just a multiple choice question.
Huh? Did anyone stop you or anyone else from running for President?
I’m not a fan of FPTP and think massive campaign finance and election reform needs to take place, but the choice presented right now is unfortunately a reflection of the broader electorate, and for better or worse that’s democracy.
Yeah actually. We’ve made money political speech and routinely refused to use public campaign financing. That pretty effectively bars 99.9% of people from ever running for president. And 98% from running for any office above local school board.
I wholeheartedly agree with money equating to speech being disastrous as to the healthy function of a democracy, but the complaint here doesn’t strike me as that. While we all know the game is skewed toward money, we should also know the better choice between these candidate couldn’t be more obvious.
That’s not what you asked. Restricting the pool of candidates to elites (money or connections) absolutely has an effect too. If it seems like our politicians are out of touch, that’s why.
please don’t reply until you turn 30.
I’m 32, just not as propagandized as you. 😉
Democracy is all about falling in line…
Versus all of the other systems (single party communism, single party fascism, etc.) which are all about the freedom of choice. /s 🙄
My friend, you are absolutely right.
In two years, 587 children have died in Ukraine. In 5 months, 12,300 children have died in Gaza. These are not comparable. Israel’s conduct is far and away worse than Russia’s in terms of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Everyone realizes it, but that doesn’t mean people want to endorse Biden’s stance on Gaza. He still needs to earn people’s vote if he wants them to go out to the polls and vote for him.
No, not everyone realizes that. You wouldn’t believe how many posts I’ve seen railing against “genocide” go on to claim that Trump would be tougher on Netanyahu. Saw one a couple days ago that even claimed that because Putin is such an ally of Iran and therefore Hamas that he’d be better for the people of Gaza. Which is just a mind fuck I can’t even understand being able to type.
For those who still don’t understand;
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/14/us-settler-sanctions-west-bank
The U.S. Department of Treasury announced new sanctions Thursday against two illegal outposts in the occupied West Bank that were used as a base for attacks by extremist Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians, three U.S. officials told Axios.
Why it matters: It is the first time U.S. sanctions are being imposed against entire outposts and not just against individuals.
The move comes as the Biden administration ratchets up pressure on the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over a range of issues, including settler violence against Palestinians and the war in Gaza. There were nearly 500 Israeli settler attacks against Palestinians between Oct. 7 and Jan. 31 of this year, according to the UN humanitarian office (OCHA).
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas, his most definitive position on the conflict since the terror group killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 200 hostages on Oct. 7.
That month, his campaign also said that, if elected again, he would bar Gaza residents from entering the U.S. as part of an expanded travel ban.
I would argue that progress like this is only happening because of the pressure on Biden from people saying they won’t vote for him if he continues to support the genocide. The biggest change was after the uncommitted movement in some of the primaries That’s why I’m okay with people saying they won’t vote for him, as long as they agree to vote for him if he continues to improve.
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> You wouldn’t believe how many posts I’ve seen railing against “genocide” go on to claim that Trump would be tougher on Netanyahu. Saw one a couple days ago that even claimed that because Putin is such an ally of Iran and therefore Hamas that he’d be better for the people of Gaza.
you’re right: i don’t believe this. can you link it?
Why am I not surprised it was harderian making such stupid takes?
Hey look, it’s me! I can screenshot deleted comments I can still see (unless that’d get me banned)
But I don’t think that user was actually serious about Trump being better for Gaza – he was trying to set up a gotcha for a point that nobody actually made (about Trump being Putins lapdog).
that doesn’t say what you say it said.
Did you read all the comments?
yea. everyone agrees trump is worse for palestine in that thread
Haha they actually linked a sarcastic comment attacking a liberal line of reasoning and conflated it as a comment supporting trump. They… are beyond help and you couldn’t ask for a better finish
/thread
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hey you do good work so like… keep it up!
This is like suggesting the firefighter has to earn your trust before you let them carry you out of the burning building.
I’m not good at detecting sarcasm in text; less so when there’s no text.
I see a performative monkey. Was that the intent?
Different viewers take different meanings from that picture. However, I would guess that someone who is extremely anti-Israel would never be captured in a photo like that. From what I know, the above is a genuine image and it is not contested that Trump visited the wall in this manner.
However, I would guess that someone who is extremely anti-Israel would never be captured in a photo like that.
It’s trump. He has no real position on anything except what he thinks might make him look good. I’d bet everything I have that he doesn’t even understand the situation enough to have a cohesive position, and just figured wearing a little hat and putting his hand on the wall like other people do would play well with a group he wants to like him.
He’s like a child. He’s said so himself. This photo is a publicity shot, nothing more.
This photo is a publicity shot, nothing more.
Yet, I doubt we would find the leaders of HAMAS taking a similar photo. His participation in this ritual means SOMETHING.
It means he visited during peacetime and his handlers thought this would get him more Jewish support, which he was sorely lacking due to his very public antisemitic comments in the past.
It was very transparent. There’s no deeper meaning here than that.
e: and it worked in some circles, apparently, since some people are still posting this photo to argue he’s not an obvious antisemite.
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We don’t understand why Biden doesn’t stop supporting Israel.
Its like supporting Bibi would lose Biden votes, but not supporting him wont. Yet he still goes out of his way to support them.
You could understand if you wanted to. It’s the majority view held by the intelligence and foreign services of most western powers and virtually everyone in Washington. It’s not like they are hiding the explanation.
Try to see the bigger picture and what this proxy war means for the world. If thirty thousand deaths make you too sad to vote for Biden and that results in reelecting Trump, how sad will you be when Iran shoots its shot against Israel and we’re here on Lemmy talking about thirty million deaths and a cascade of failed states throughout the Middle East and eastern Europe fueled by the unprecedented humanitarian crisis and masses of refugees?
What does it mean for the world and for human rights everywhere if the western powers allow the only democracy in the middle east to fall to actual, for-real, far right religious extremists, who will actually, for-real genocide every Jew in the middle east in favor of an Islamic religio-ethno dictatorship?
How does ceding Israel to actual fascists advance the interest of lasting peace or human rights, especially if it ends up reelecting Trump, who will never leave office if he gets in again?
Maybe instead of throwing away democracy in America and the middle east, we can maybe appreciate that 30,000,000 is more than 30,000?
Maybe it makes more sense if we use America’s persuasive power to see Netanyahu and his party defeated at the ballot box? Wouldn’t that be much better for the world?
Biden isn’t the roadblock to peace in Gaza. He didn’t cause the situation or prolong it in any way. Israel has all the weaponry and fighters it needs to turn Gaza and the West Bank into a sheet of glass in about ninety minutes if it wanted. Even with conventional weapons, they could carpet bomb the entirety of Palestine many times over before the loss of US support disrupted Israeli’s defensive posture as to Gaza.
It is Israel’s posture as to Iran that dictates America’s course, and frankly it’s not that hard of a choice given the stakes. Continued support is continued leverage, whereas ending support ends any leverage America may have over what Israel deeply considers to be, more or less, a local police matter.
Excusing Palestinian deaths by saying 30,000 had to die so that 30 million in the future don’t get killed in some fantasy scenario that has not happened and is unlikely to happen.
This is what you are doing here.
Emotionally protecting yourself from 13 thousand dead children.
(Btw kids, please don’t vote for Trump, but also don’t allow bs like this to cheapen Palestinian blood)
lol. Israel is not a democracy. 5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are non-citizens without a vote. The PA is entirely under the thumb of Israel, and Palestinians in the West Bank live in apartheid. Gaza has been besieged and abused for 20 years. Your precious “Only Democracy in the Middle East” is a last bastion of proud European colonialism. The one colony that is still establishing new settlements and clearing “savages” from new land. America long ago divested itself of the Phillipines, but we pour money and weapons into our client colonial state between the river and the sea.
Can you name any country where non citizens have a right to vote?
Apartheid is something that a country does to its own citizens.
When a third of your population aren’t citizens, and in fact most of their families have lived there since the Ottoman Empire, while your citizens have mostly immigrated from abroad in the mid-1900s, and have pushed the non-citizens who predated them into ghettos, you can call it whatever you want. But it’s repugnant.
That’s great, let’s agree that all of that is true; nothing will erase the original sin will it?
The starting point to peace is right now. How we got here does not have to dictate where we go from here.
What is it that you’re advocating with the land records line of reasoning, that the Israel government is evicted, that democracy in the middle east ends, and gets replaced with an Islamist caliphate, because the Jews did not inhabit the Levant during the Ottoman empire? Hmm, where were they again?1 But moreso, who were the inhabitants at the beginning of recorded history? I mean if you want to go back to the records and do a title search, go back to the first record. Why would you stop less than halfway?
- https://rpl.hds.harvard.edu/faq/dhimmi (“A dhimmi refers to a non-Muslim subject of the Ottoman Empire. Derived from Islamic legal conceptions of membership to society, non-Muslims ‘dhimmis’ were afforded protection by the state and did not serve in the military, in return for specific taxes. The dhimmi status was legally abolished in 1839 with the Hatt-ı Şerif of Gülhane and was formalized with the 1869 Ottoman Law of Nationality as part of wider Tanzimat Reforms. Regardless of these official changes, in various places within the Empire non-Muslim subjects faced various forms of institutional discrimination.”). https://web.archive.org/web/20181214221418/http://jewishhistory.research.wesleyan.edu/i-jewish-population/5-ottoman-empire/ (“As the dhimmi, Jews and Christians were subject to: A special tax (the jizya); A prohibition against carrying arms; A prohibition against riding horses; A prohibition against building new houses of worship or repairing old ones; Prohibitions against public processions and worship; A prohibition against proselytism; A requirement to wear distinctive clothing; A prohibition against building homes higher than Muslim ones.”).
Nothing will erase the original sin, but Israel can abide by international law and allow the Palestinians to return to their homes and give them equal rights. We are not talking about ancient history. The Naqba was just 75 years ago.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/14/us-settler-sanctions-west-bank
The U.S. Department of Treasury announced new sanctions Thursday against two illegal outposts in the occupied West Bank that were used as a base for attacks by extremist Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians, three U.S. officials told Axios.
Why it matters: It is the first time U.S. sanctions are being imposed against entire outposts and not just against individuals.
The move comes as the Biden administration ratchets up pressure on the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over a range of issues, including settler violence against Palestinians and the war in Gaza. There were nearly 500 Israeli settler attacks against Palestinians between Oct. 7 and Jan. 31 of this year, according to the UN humanitarian office (OCHA).
If they fully drop all support for Israel then multiple countries are likely to start war against Israel, possibly Iran and 2-3 others. That will cause the entire region to destabilize
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And Jewish people are a monolith and all support Israel? Ironically this is closer to actual antisemitism than someone who hates Israel as a state because of their horrendous actions.
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Again, as a monolith? Like “they” all hold this position? Hopefully you see the issue here. Many jewish people absolutely do not support Israel at all
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This article discusses the issue. We have to assume that this recent bout of war crimes has made less jewish people supportive of Israel as well.
As the article says, they are not a monolith
Jews are not Israel. Israel is not Jews. Stop being a Zionist freak. No one cares what the makeup of the US is. Jews aren’t supposed to support genocide, so if anything, there being many Jews in the US should mean Netty’s behavior should be even less agreeable.
Jews “aren’t supposed” to support or oppose anything as a monolith. That’s just racial essentialism.
Pretty sure plenty of Jews preach against genocide… Or are you saying Jews are OK with genocide as a religion?
Either way … very dumb.
I’m not collecting all Jewry and describing what they do or do not believe, for one! I’m saying that being Jewish isn’t only about participating in a religion. And I’m also saying, which underlines my previous points, not all Jews think the same or believe the same thing.
Are you Jewish? Are you Palestinian?
To disagree with the basic point that all people, regardless of classification, don’t believe one single thing is ridiculous. To what are you even trying to retort?
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There’s a difference between believing in Israel as a state and believing that Israel is doing the right thing politically.
I don’t think you are arguing in good faith.
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Anytime there is an argument that begins “everyone believes X” you are wrong right out of the gate. I’d imagine that if you were to poll Jews, MANY of them would support Israel, but there is no way possible each and every one would. Not all Americans support the American government, so why would Israel be any different?
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I disagree actually, at least for the US. American Jews tend to be way more liberal than Israelis. I think the largest group of supporters would actually be Christians because of the fucking nutty evangelicals.
Or among Christian evangelicals, actually.
That makes logical sense to me.
If I understand correctly, you’re noting that the Jewish people in America lean supportive of Israel and because they comprise a larger population pool than the vehemently strong pro-Palestinians, Biden must then carefully toe the line between the two groups to court the largest % of votes to ensure the far-worse guy doesn’t get in power?
“ironically” it’s actually Christian far right nationalist evangelicals (a bunch of self contradicting terms if you ask me) who support Israel most in USA, not Jews living in USA (who often left or refused to move there for a reason!).
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Thanks. I feel like there’s only a few of us even calling this out anymore. It’s made me tired and really hating Lemmy.
It definitely calls into question the average lemmy user’s intelligence.
There’s a lot of tankies on Lemmy/Fediverse. They present a misleading picture of what people really think.
I would agree with you, had I not just had a conversation with a friend about a discord they’re in being infected with the “U.S. is a totalitarian state” tankie bullshit.
Indoctrination works both ways, it isn’t just conservatives.
There’s tankies on other places too.
I saw one at Walgreens
Nah, these people are just garden variety idiots. My friend was roommates with one, dumbfuck wasted a ton of his tuition money on drugs and all of a sudden he’s communist.
Edit: downvotes huh? Sounds like we’ve got some people who spent their money unwisely here. Adds up.
Indoctrination works both ways, it isn’t just conservatives.
So fucking this.
Not funding a genocide is a tanky thing?
Lmao. The word had officially lost all meaning.
Well, considering Russia wants to stamp out Ukraine’s cultural identity and has kidnapped children and killed civilians en masse, and tankies don’t want to fund Ukraine’s defense and make excuses for Russia…
Tankies don’t exactly have a high ground with genocide. They’re against funding a genocide, and apparently also against funding a defense against a genocide.
I don’t give a fuck about them. I care about you guys trying to lump the entire anti war, anti war crimes group into being tankies.
I don’t lump those people into the Tankies group unless their idea of anti war is to give to the aggressor everything they want. At some point war becomes necessary if the aggressor refuses to see anything else.
When did words have any meaning?
They have to have some meaning or did I just order pancakes?
I mean, Genos is the cool robot dude from one punch man, no? /S
It’s above the base reddit IQ because we know more Linux and programming.
Linux and programming are not necessarily signs of overall intelligence.
I met with a few that tries to argue that the correct choice is to vote for third party. And, other people called them out on it.
I’m far-left as you come, but, I still vote for the feasible and better option in the general. I always vote for the better in the primary without exception. I voted for Bernie in 2020 primary even if Biden is guaranteed to have the nomination, and voted for Biden.
And my opinion is that Biden is the better of the two in context of Israel. He at least sanctioned settlers, and some days that will include Jenin(?) settlers. Trump won’t do that. And most people that are against Israel has less to do with war at Gaza than settlers and the clowns in Israel government.
The “I’m voting third party because I don’t like either candidate” people are the reason for Trump’s first presidency
So… no, that’s not even remotely true. The percentage of third party votes would not have helped Hillary win the 2016 election. She ran a terrible campaign and completely ignored the key states: Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. All 3 states, at least at the time, were considered heavily blue states, and she proceeded to lose in all 3. Her campaign lacked a clear, articulated message that spoke to voters to draw out a significant voter turnout, and just underestimated the populism aspect of Trump’s run. He was full of shit and his legacy will be the conservative supreme court justices he left behind, but his campaign promised to revitalize dying blue class industries in the Rust belt which incentivized working class voters in a way that Hillary’s moderate campaign absolutely failed to.
I don’t think the populism factor will attract new voters for this upcoming election, as both Trump and Biden have their core voter bases established. However, the campaign messaging that gives voters incentive for a better turnout will always be the key factor. The message of “Hey, at least I’m not the other guy” does not work. It didn’t work in 2016. Hillary didn’t even learn from her failed campaign because in the aftermath of her defeat she wrote in her book What Happened, “If just 40,000 people across Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania had changed their minds, I would have won”. That whole mindset is just so out of touch with the political landscape in 2016, and this upcoming election cycle will be no different.
The third party voters in a handful of states absolutely ended up being the deciding factor. It’s not the absolute number of electoral college votes which I think you know but instead the states like Wisconsin and Michigan that Trump won by less than the larger than typical number of green party votes. I don’t think that this trick will work twice but it’s certainly being astroturfed like crazy again
By how many votes did Hillary lose, again?
77 votes in the electoral college. The total electoral college votes for third parties combined (Gary Johnson + Jill Stein) was 7. So in the unlikely event that Hillary won over all of the Gary Johnson libertarian voters and Jill Stein green party voters, she would still have lost. By a lot. She won the popular vote so that’s cool. But unfortunately that doesn’t win elections.
She won the popular vote so that’s cool. But unfortunately that doesn’t win elections.
It’s such a practical topic for the election, too, right? Never mind the shit the Republicans are pulling on a day to day basis- that shit has already been normalized.
>I’m far-left as you come
i guarantee, you are not.
You sure do not have any idea who I voted for beyond Bernie. I always look up candidates and pick the ones with better access to healthcare, education, working environment, etc.
leftists are building a revolution to overthrow capitalism.
if all you’re doing is voting, and for Democrats, then you are not, in fact, a leftist.
Fucking lulz.
Leftists don’t actually have to be against capitalism as a concept. Some of us do support european-esque capitalism because of easier access to healthcare and education.
And that’s the bare minimum, but the most impactful, and the most realistic. You, the 3rd party voter, can’t even cite when they have ever made a dent in the nation-wide scale, and you very well know that you can’t convince educated leftists to split their vote to give it to Trump. But, do try, and I’ll be laughing at the attempts.
>Leftists don’t actually have to be against capitalism
there is a cure for political illiteracy
>you very well know that you can’t convince educated leftists to split their vote to give it to Trump
leftists certainly wouldn’t give their vote to trump
>Fucking lulz.
this is an appeal to ridicule.
>You, the 3rd party voter, can’t even cite when they have ever made a dent in the nation-wide voter
you never asked, and, frankly, there is a cure for historical illiteracy, too
Then there’s two of us. TWO OF US!!!
no one is saying that they will vote for trump to support Palestine
They will just not vote for Biden because he hates Palestinians, right?
Still have yet to see anyone saying they’ll vote Trump. Including Ilhan Omar who the article is about.
You beat that straw man. You beat it good.
How many are saying they won’t vote for Biden, though?
Ahh yes vote for my guy or else you’re automatically voting for the other guy.
I can smell the democracy from here.
So, who ARE you voting for, by the way?
Not trump.
Oh. Anyone specific in mind?
I think I’ll write in Ann Anarchy.
Not for Trump. Not for Butcher Biden.
Trunky Trump and Butcher Biden, you say?
Do they have a band?
Edit: HEEEYY! Trunky Trump and The Butcher Bunch! AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
First past the post. How does it work???
no one is saying they’re going to vote for trump over this.
No, but they are doing the opposite of what is needed in this election cycle: hyping up the democratic base. The right stands together lock step and the left plays the no true Scotsman game
if the left had a candidate I might understand what you are saying.
How to tell if someone’s a little mushroom:
if the left had a candidate I might understand what you are saying.
“Sleepy Joe is not even worthy of consideration, he’s barely a human! Hillary’s emails!”
But I’m sure behind the screen you’re very impartial.
I assume Lemmy user there was referencing the “Democrats are center right” line, which isn’t wrong, but also it’s clear what the person they were replying to meant.
What do you call a Lemmy user again? Lemmite?
I think it’s lemming?
A lemmur
Let me clarify as in hamburgerland we have a duopoly: the American left vs Mr “just a dictator on day one” with project 2025 heritage foundation puppet strings
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Ackshually, that is exactly what is happening.
I have never seen that. can you link it?
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It’s insane how when someone criticizes anything about Biden, the first move is accusing them of supporting trump, and when they have to clarify trump is obviously worse, everyone then acts like their criticisms of Biden becomes invalid.
Biden is better than trump. But we deserve better than either option.
“Shutting up and voting Biden” doesn’t help anything, and is what we give republicans shit for.
Liberals always choose to stand in the way of progress. You’ll never have better Dems if you don’t criticize them. They aren’t your friends and voting is a tool.
Malcolm X put it well:
The white conservatives aren’t friends of the Negro either, but they at least don’t try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them.
But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the “smiling” fox.
That said, many people have a mistaken view of voting.
They think “I’m picking someone who represents who I am as a person, and so who I pick is a reflection of my very soul.”
Or at best, they think “I’m picking someone who will act in my best interests. I may not like them as a person, but the actions they take are at least a good approximation of the actions I want them to take.”
The reality is more like “I’m picking someone who will inevitably act in the interest of those in power. I need to pick someone who has the right vulnerabilities. They don’t have a good rapport with certain powerful entities, so they don’t mind pissing those ones off if it means they can score some votes as a result.”
You’re not picking someone to lead your side. You’re picking who you’d rather negotiate with from their side.
Like that last sentence. Very astute.
You’re saying that here, but you have repeatedly said you’re voting third party, and I among many others have given you shit for that, as well as your refusal to even acknowledge one thing you think Biden has done well. You complain about this so much on Lemmy that I recognize your name, and can usually tell when you’ve written a comment before I even look at the name. Go outside sometimes.
Feel free to respond to this but fyi I’m not going to read it.
I too have seen exactly this from that user.
He also baits you so he can report you. If he’s not a paid troll, he’s a sucker, because he’s doing this at a professional level.
Wow, and with 26 comments over 9 months, you’re surely not someone’s alt account…
No, in fact, I’m not.
Weird.
Looks like you just make pro genocide comments and get super down voted for it.
So still makes since why you’re upset with me. I do spend a lot of time pointing out how we shouldn’t be spending billions a year so another country can do a genocide.
Congrats on finally have some comments with a positive score tho!
Doesn’t look like it happens often
Mkay buddy
https://lemmy.world/u/fukhueson?page=1&sort=New&view=Comments
I’d say something about how weird it is to deny something blatantly true…
But it looks that’s just SOP for you
Feel free to respond to this but fyi I’m not going to read it.
your refusal to even acknowledge one thing you think Biden has done well.
Because everything he’s “done well” has been pretty much the same shit they’ve always done. It’s not enough. You can blame Republicans all day long but we need something to change and Democrats are the only option available to progressives and leftists. But every single time there’s an opportunity to demonstrate looking towards the future and making these changes Biden has passed that up. Here’s some examples:
Called on congress to block the rail strike: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-calls-on-congress-to-block-potential-railroad-strike
Walks back his own campaign promise for $50k forgiveness: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/539139-biden-balks-at-50k-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/
Goes around congress to sell weapons to Israel: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/29/politics/biden-congress-israel-military-aid/index.html
Forced federal workers back to office: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/13/politics/in-person-work-biden-administration/index.html
Increased the defense budget: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/28/politics/defense-budget-biden-administration/index.htmlThese behaviors put me as a voter in a no win situation. If I support Biden after all this what am I doing besides giving establishment Democrats and moderate voters a blank check opportunity to say “See? Everything is fine.”. They will completely ignore the fact that I and other voters compromised our principles in order to prop up a candidate we hate for what he’s done.
On the other hand I can protest vote 3rd party or write in. And of course that comes with it’s own risks.
At what point will moderates and establishment Democrats have a moment of self awareness and admit that this isn’t a sustainable model? Personally I had hoped 2016 would be that wake up call but instead I’m seeing people try to turn it around as if it’s progressives and leftists who need to change.
How much are you being paid to post those same 5 links everywhere?
I pay them 5 big fat leftistbux every time, and frankly i am gonna have to have a talk with them cuz they’re clearly not producting value for my money.
Will you fill out this customer service survey?
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How many times must they post them 5 links before you read even 1?
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Would you be happier with a short message describing what each link says?
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What about their attitude caused you to turn off your brain? Would using more words help? Fewer words?
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We’re sorry that thinking about hard truths is painful. Your needs are important to us. Would a meme format help wash these down?
We care about your input. Please stay on the line for more questions and a chance to win!
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How much are you being paid to follow me around?
I think you don’t know how government works. Your list of things is misdirected. For example, Biden forgave the loans, Republicans blocked it. Congress makes the defense budget, not Biden.
Republicans didn’t force Biden to walk back his campaign promise to fight for $50k forgiveness down to $10k. He did that all on his own.
It’s called compromise. It happens sometimes. It’s very sad. I remember my first time a politician let me down. Even Bernie has once or twice broken my heart.
I think Biden’s hand was perhaps not forced by the Republicans, but restrained by forces that Biden must not only contend with, but work with.
My urge for Biden to come in like a dictator and say “fuck the law, here’s my executive order, go change the dollar amounts in our computer system” and then just ignore the fallout and the resulting injunctions and claims for damages, as Trump would have done, is a strong and primal urge, it’s an urge for comfort. It’s comfortable to have one person to solve all your problems. My grandfather warned me of it regarding his escape from Italy.some time ago. Perhaps that why in my mind it passes as quickly as it arises.
A compromise with who?
Did you read the article?
You’re saying that here, but you have repeatedly said you’re voting third party
Nope, never.
But thanks for blocking me! I know you’re going to sign out to check this, but it’s still nice to know I’ll never get another response from you.
If you bet banned for personal attacks, please don’t forget to also block me on your new account or any alts you currently have
Sure, but there are only 4 options when November comes: 1) vote for Biden, 2) vote for Trump, 3) vote 3rd party, or 4) don’t vote.
Due to how the US system works, options 2-4 only help Trump, so unless you want a Trump presidency, only option 1 is valid.
Anything else is just at best a pipe dream, or at worst, direct support for someone who will become a dictator.
Sure, but there are only 4 options when November comes: 1) vote for Biden, 2) vote for Trump, 3) vote 3rd party, or 4) don’t vote.
Due to how the US system works, options 2-4 only help Trump
Doubt this claim. Using this logic (voting for 3rd party is a vote for Trump) a vote for 3rd party is a vote for Biden as well. Not voting trump only helps Biden. I won’t be voting for Trump or Biden, so i guess by not voting for either I’m voting for both of them and an committing voter fraud so at least you won’t have to worry about me in 2028s election as I’ll be in jail.
The general logic as I understand it is this: (effectively)No one who might have considered voting Trump is going to vote for anyone else. So folks who defect to a third party vote, especially due to the current Israel/Palestine situation, are assumed to be potential Biden voters by a much wider margin than potential Trump voters. Then you factor in all the R who claim they don’t support Trump or what he has wrought, but continue pulling the lever for him and politicians like him because of the R in front of their names. They aren’t voting third party either.
That logic may or may not reflect reality, but I think it’s what is in most folks’ heads when they make that statement.
Thank you, that makes sense.
If the weatherman says a tornado is going to hit your town tomorrow, would you start getting upset at them for causing a tornado?
Or would you be appreciative that someone gave you a heads up while there’s still time?
Because I see a lot of people frantically ringing alarm bells. For years at this point.
The primary still isn’t over despite the DNC pulling delegates from NH.
There’s still time to not run Biden. And I know that’s unlikely.
But there’s still also time to make noise and hope Biden and the DNC sees reason and move left so trump doesn’t win
But telling people:
Shut up and vote Biden
Isn’t going to get Biden enough votes to beat trump. He’s sitting at less than 1/3 approval with voters…
We can’t just stick our heads in the sand and hope that’s enough.
If you want to be sure we beat Trump, start making noise and praying Biden actually listens.
I continue to believe polls have been less and less accurate and for the last several elections, special, midterm, and general, or so, polls have been completing meaningless. It’s obvious to me that respondents in recent years simply lying to pollsters.
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Edit got danng even my accidental misreply gets downvoted? Save that for the shit i actually say lol. Yall are hating hard.
There’s a time and a place. In this case, the last best time was in 2015 and 2019 during the democratic primary elections. And the left shot its shot and got Bernie pretty freaking far along, enough to reshape the democratic party apparatus partly in his vision. And maybe that didn’t give us President Sanders, but it might give us the next great president.
If Trump gets in, he won’t leave.
We should be having a proper competitive primary now instead of a coronation. In 2019, we were told Biden wasn’t looking for two terms. We got bait-and-switched.
According to four people who regularly talk to Biden, all of whom asked for anonymity to discuss internal campaign matters, it is virtually inconceivable that he will run for reelection in 2024, when he would be the first octogenarian president.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129
Maybe so. There is a primary happening in accordance with the laws of each state right now and Biden is on the ballot. You could have run.
Biden beat Trump once and he can do it again. Perhaps Biden’s change of heart has to do with the fact that Trump is running again. That’s almost inconceivable.
But we deserve better than either option.
You can deserve all you want, but that won’t change the names on the ballot. If you really care, start organizing some grassroots support around 3rd parties, or perhaps take on a role in government in your local jurisdiction. The upcoming election is 99.999% going to be between Trump and Biden. Vote or not, there’s very little you can do about alternatives at this point. Start working on the next one.
Man, if only we had an earlier election where we have a say in who the general candidate was…
But I’m sure if Biden doesn’t move left and trump wins, you’re going to do the rational thing and blame Biden and his campaign team for their words and actions.
I mean, it would be ridiculous if instead you blamed all the people who held their nose and voted D but spent 4 years telling everyone that Biden isn’t popular enough to beat trump again. And he needs to do more to reach out to Dem voters.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/14/us-settler-sanctions-west-bank
The U.S. Department of Treasury announced new sanctions Thursday against two illegal outposts in the occupied West Bank that were used as a base for attacks by extremist Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians, three U.S. officials told Axios.
Why it matters: It is the first time U.S. sanctions are being imposed against entire outposts and not just against individuals.
The move comes as the Biden administration ratchets up pressure on the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over a range of issues, including settler violence against Palestinians and the war in Gaza. There were nearly 500 Israeli settler attacks against Palestinians between Oct. 7 and Jan. 31 of this year, according to the UN humanitarian office (OCHA).
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas, his most definitive position on the conflict since the terror group killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 200 hostages on Oct. 7.
That month, his campaign also said that, if elected again, he would bar Gaza residents from entering the U.S. as part of an expanded travel ban.
Is this good enough for you?
Flashback: On Feb. 1, President Biden signed an executive order allowing the U.S. to impose new sanctions on Israeli settlers — and potentially Israeli politicians and government officials — involved in violent attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank.
I remember when Biden sanctioned the few individuals…
Even a comment I made back then, but it would be a hassle to find it.
I said it was better than nothing, and if Biden actually sanctioned the politicians and government officials behind this shit, I’d unironically stand up and clap.
But that sanctioning random settlers literally accomplishs nothing. So I dont know why people want to brag about it.
I still dont know why someone would act like this means anything, and I’m still desperately waiting for the chance to be proud of Biden.
He’s doing a lot of diplomacy behind closed doors, a bit too much for my taste even, but that’s how he’s always worked and he’ll keep doing that, so there’s not much visible but the few public statements. I think he needs to do more, but he’s very risk averse and the problem is that if he just straight up blocks all support for Israel then that could cause chaos (risk for war in the region, loss of internal support, etc).
but he’s very risk averse
If he was averse to risk, he’d stop doing all this shit his voters hate less than a year out from an election…
He’s being dangerously risky right now, and we’re all fucked if it turns out he made a bad judgement call and loses the election.
he just straight up blocks all support for Israel then that could cause chaos (risk for war in the region, loss of internal support, etc).
At the same time, Biden says trump is incredibly dangerous, and him becoming president again could be the end of American democracy.
And I agree with that.
Which is why I think Biden putting Israel over America is so fucking stupid.
America isn’t responsible for the safety of Israel. If America stopped protecting them at the UN, and the UN forced them to stop their genocide…
That wouldn’t be the end of Israel, just the end of their current genocide.
If Israel got attacked after that and invaded, then aid to Israel would be a different story and the rest of the UN would be helping.
You’re arguing from this false stance where Joe Biden is the only thing keeping Israel a state right now, and ignoring that his support of Israel could very well lead to the actual end of American democracy.
The president of America’s priority should be America, not if a foreign country might have to stop their genocide.
Like, if Biden was stopping a genocide, that would be different.
Do you legitimately not understand any of that?
he’d stop doing all this shit his voters hate less than a year out from an election…
There’s not as many people who think like you as you think there are.
Sure, but “right now” you need to vote for Biden or risk never being able to vote again.
and the general election is eight fucking months away, so it’s 100% justifiable to vote however the fuck I want to in the primary.
Which I did, and I voted uncommitted. And I will vote for not Trump in November. But don’t mistake my enthusiasm for “not living in a fascist theocratic state” for enthusiasm towards Biden, because it’s not and never will be.
Apologies. I wasn’t talking about the primaries. I was talking about the presidential election.
Edit: I didn’t realize they were talking about the primaries. My bad.
Edits aside, that is kinda the issue. I have disliked Biden not because he’s Biden, but largely because I feel he’s a little more conservative of a president than I would like. Will I vote for him still if he’s up against Trump? Unless he genuinely gives me a reason to think he’d be as bad as Trump (pretty damn unlikely), yes. But I very much dislike his handling of the Israeli - Palistinian conflict, so much so that during the primaries I voted uncommitted. But every time I bring up my opinion, the default is not to say that I must be implicitly be a Trump supporter because I’m not 100% behind Biden. I live in the southeastern US, so I absolutely have family that are Trump supporters, and that argument of all or nothing is sounds very similar in my mind to those that support Trump. I’d argue that this rhetoric of total support will most likely be more damaging than not for the democrats, as it has actually made me more wary about voting for Biden than I suspect I would be otherwise.
All I’m seeing here is that you don’t seem to understand how the spoiler effect works in an entrenched two-party political system, which this is. Also, it appears you’re not aware of how absurdly tilted to the right the electoral mechanisms have become in this country - largely due to gerrymandering, and the continued refusal of Congress to reapportion the number of Representatives in the house from the cap imposed in 1929.
I would say it is a spoiler effect if another candidate was running in the democratic party, but there wasn’t, so now it pretty much the choice between Biden and Trump (I doubt there are many on the fence voters at this point). I also very much understand gerrymandering, I am a left leaning voter in NC after all. What is troubling is that it seems the simple solution is to not support Israel and back the UN in investigation of war crimes and handing out aid. But when you suggest that, the default is often to suspect that I am actively suggesting not to vote for Biden (I’m not), and that I am implicitly supporting Trump (who I acknowledge would handle the situation way worse). The reason I am worried about this is that it is very reminiscent of Trump voters that follow with questioning the reason why, which I have seen firsthand. There are likely going to be other big issues raised during this election year, and if they are often answered like this it isn’t exactly confidence inspiring.
Question: If they run an even worse candidate next time, which considering the trend of them all, they will; Will you finally allow leftists to stop blindly voting for a party that doesn’t reflect their values?
At what point will the responsibility be on the dems to appeal to us, instead of us blindly backing the blue against our better wishes?
Genuinely curious, how is Joe worse than Hillary?
The answer is never, so it’s time to start organizing now. Labor unions are on the rise for the first time in a century, and historically are an incredibly strong voting bloc. Coordination between them could lead to a proper leftist party, split from the Dems.
Splitting the left would result in a permanent Republican majority.
That presupposes the Republican party survives. They’ve put a lot of capital into Trump, and if he loses this November there’s a good chance he’s just dead before he gets a chance to run again. None of the other claimants to the throne are anywhere near as popular amongst the cult.
Nobody is suggesting we get a leftist party together for November. That’s just not possible, and getting a president would be meaningless. Organize for midterms, start getting house and congress seats. Work with the Dems while the Republican threat remains, but prepare for when their movement collapses to infighting
That’s true. I think there is a reasonable chance that the right-wing could split or collapse.
There is an interesting parallel here with Canada, which also has a FPTP system. Canada is more progressive than the US, so it already has two left-wing parties (one more centre-left than the other). But, for about a decade in the 90s, the right wing party split in two and this guaranteed electoral success for the centre-left Liberal Party. The interesting thing is that this was actually bad for the Liberal Party. They became arrogant, internally fractious, and scandal-prone. When the two right-wing parties re-merged, the Liberals suffered their worst defeat in history.
If the Republicans in the US split into two right-wing parties, there might be room for two left-wing parties as well. In fact, it would be good if a left-wing split ensured that the Dems weren’t guaranteed electoral success, as this would lead them into making stupid mistakes. However, if the right-wing later re-united, the left would have to be prepared to reunite again as well. The problem is that the US is more right-wing than Canada, so vote-splitting on the left is more of a worry.
All of that said, it would be interesting to see how much support a left-wing working class party would have. I recall that there were midwest working class voters who were prevaricating between Trump and Bernie, not between Trump and Hillary/Biden. They didn’t care about left vs. right politics as much as they wanted to vote for someone who would bring good working class jobs back to the Rust Belt. A left-wing party that really focused on bread and butter working class issues and not culture war bullshit might do well, but it’s too risky when Trump is the alternative.
If moderates can’t get over their unwillingness to compromise with progressives and leftists the split is guaranteed.
If you hate Democrats and Republicans, don’t vote for them, but recognize that abstaining has consequences as well.
And the real fun begins when you look at what the Dems do in the primaries. Progressives get outfunded in favor of “centrist” Dems BY the DNC and DGA, and the DNC/DGA also have a bad habit of trying to elevate the craziest Republican to the general election in states all over the country.
The DNC et al would like very much to continue forcing democratic voters to vote for them to save the democracy the party are actively undermining.
Yall watch that bit on John Oliver about the mark robinson? I looked into it. Yes, the DGA ran their game (“attack” ads designed elevate fringe candidates into the public consciousness) in North Carolina and helped him secure the Republican nomination.
How much can a voter force a party like “that” left?
And since DNC pulled NH primary delegates for something only republicans can change and Biden supported it…
We can’t even use your point to convince people.
This sham of a Dem primary might be our last.
Do you think NH republicans learned their lesson and will change NH state law so the NH Dem primary doesn’t have to be first?
Or do you think they’ll leave the law in place so in 2028 the DNC cancels the NH primary again?
The only people that can fix it are NH republicans and the DNC. And the DNC seems fine with just not letting NH Dems have a say in who the candidate is.
What’s stopping the DNC from canceling other states that vote progressive like NH was?
They’ve already argued in court they can do what they want, because primary is nonbinding and they can just ignore it anyways.
This is the danger of just blindly supporting Dems no matter what. They keep acting more and more like Republicans
DNC conspiracy theory nonsense gets so tiresome. You had some legitimate grievances over what happened with Bernie, but not really in the recent primary. Unless you can name the challenger to Biden that was worth spending money holding the primary for.
I sincerely hope the far left does fall in line with its own party eventually, with some voting reform we could make a multiparty system viable. For now though, much like in WW2, we have fascists to defeat. Regardless of how much liberals and communists may dislike each other, we are at least capable of civil cooperation.
It’d just be nice if you stopped trying to attack all forms of liberalism so hard and take over the dem party just like MAGA took over the repubs. It won’t work on educated people in the same way fascism can convince the uneducated. We tend to know the difference between liberal and neo-liberal.
I mean you say ‘legitimate grievances’ then proceed to ignore what happened to NH.
The reality of the situation that we’re all in is that oarty primaries are the only ‘real’ mechanism we get to engage with democracy in a material way, and time and time again the stewards of those parties are thumbing the scales towards specific outcomes.
You acknowledge it, then dismiss it as ‘nonesense’. It’s not fucking nonsense. There is almost nothing ‘democratic’ about the DNCs primary process. If you run a competitive race but aren’t the predidermined party leadership acceptable candidate, they steal it from you, in fact, they’ll conspire to do so. If a state ‘votes wrong’, they take your primary from you. It’s material and real you chucklefuck and dismissing it trivializes the real consequences it has around voter disenfranchisement.
If we consider the primary process to be a part of our political system, and we should because it is, the DNC is less democratic than some of the lowest ranking “democracies” in the planet. The RNC didn’t rig their primary to stop Trump. The DNC did so to stop Bernie, twice. And when a state which was one of the first in the nation primaries gave the primary to the non-dccc candidate, they took the primary away from that state.
It’s an indefensible mockery of the word democracy to call the DNCs primary a democratic process
Conveniently skipped over where I asked someone, and anyone can do this, to name the viable leftist challenger in the recent NH primary, that would make holding it worthwhile.
And really, can name a non-leftist challenger too if you want, if you really think Dean had a real shot or something.
The degree of personal attacks and cherry-picked arguments in here is remarkable.
Oh stfu you pedant.
You are dismissing the structural critique that makes your first point irrelevant.
There are no viable challengers because the DNC has repeatedly changed the rules or moved the goal posts to prevent that from happening again.
Ah, more conspiracy theory. Bernie ran just fine. Twice. He’s not even a registered democrat. You got any evidence of the new rule that prevented it from happening this time, or just an anonymous claim on the internet?
DNC conspiracy theory nonsense gets so tiresome.
From my perspective, it’s you guys who ennervate. Is there a point to reading any more of the couple a paragraphs or is it all pompous nonsense about how you ‘just know better’ without a shred of shame?
Read something jackalope. And write something worth reading.
Personal and tribal attacks. You can be better.
Hey, you can too! You shortened your ridiculous whining down to 2 sentences i can dismiss more quickly.
Show me the meat in your argument and ill bite.
Read your previous comment again and think of how else you might improve, professor
That’s cute and all, but we’re not all teens here.
> like in WW2, we have fascists to defeat
that’s what leftists are saying, and that’s why they are saying not to vote for democrats, too. it’s like you’re saying if we don’t vote for mussolini, we’ll get hitler. well i’m not voting for either of them.
Right, because the best way to fight fascists is to let them take over. Brilliant!
Oh, and do you not think Omar and the rest of the squad leans left? Because she just said she plans to vote Biden. Or they just not progressive enough for you?
>Right, because the best way to fight fascists is to let them take over.
you don’t seem to get that mussolini was a fascist too.
Yeah, he invented it. You equating Biden with Mussolini? Because I’m not seeing the hyper-nationalism, the militarism, the subjugation of the individual for the state, the undemocratic holding of power, etc etc etc.
Unless you believe in the right-wing conspiracy theories anyway. Hmm…
People complaining about the process of the Democratic Primary this year seem to have forgotten that there is only one viable candidate this time around. If somebody else viable had announced his candidacy this year, I would be there with you all the way. However, if an open primary implies that Biden has to debate anti-vaxer Kennedy as his closest competitor, I don’t see what the point is. This primary is not rigged by the DNC, but by other candidates (e.g. Whitmer/Newson/AOC) not running.
Sorry to chime in, but I find this particular debate/conversation going on within Liberal and Leftist circles interesting and at times frustrating.
While I don’t buy that the DNC is involved or cultivating some sort of conspiracy to take the election, I do believe every US election from here on out will be a choice between Capitalist Technocracy and Imperialism and outright Theocratic Fascism. Do I prefer one? Sure (not fascism), do I think it’s even remotely ideal? Not at all. Am I pissed that I’m at times criticized for wanting something unrealistic?
Yes, because a reality where those are constantly the two options presented EVERY election is pathetic and points to the fact we’re just prolonging the end of US democracy because it failed to evolve into a socialist democracy soon enough and thusly became vulnerable to fascist rhetoric.
This is more likely the reality than “we can turn back fascism now and next year, when Biden is president, then we can protest what you want.” That simply isn’t what’s going to happen. Trump is just the beginning of a Fascist wave, the ideology of Fascism, White Supremacy, and Theocracy has been allowed to fester for too long in America and it’s like a cancer that has grown too deep for a single chemo treatment to treat it. You’ve got to cut it out stem and all, and that isn’t a peaceful or painless process.
The left that is pro Palestine and calling out the war in Gaza as the genocide it is are the future of The Democratic Party in America whether you like it or not, unless we’re finally going to splinter from Bipartisan politics, which I just don’t see happening. But we can always justify lesser of two evils when the enemy is fascism. Very much how Netanyahu needs Hamas (as evidenced by his rhetoric and past policies, so too does the Democratic Party need Fascists deeply seeded in the ranks of the Republican party.
This ensures that Democrats don’t have to enact laws that align more with the increasingly more leftist leaning public’s desires for an end to American Imperialism, and can simply be not Fascists to win election after election after election.
All until Capitalism destroys not just this country, but the majority of humanity at large, because just like any dying empire, America has become a nation controlled by an elite class that, regardless of party, solely desire to retain the status quo regardless of the consequences to those not within said elite class.
So yeah, I’m voting Biden, but I don’t expect Fascism to move even an inch regardless of the victor. It’ll be there the next morning, and 4 years from now to try its hand again…and 8 years from now…again and again…until finally we fall.
We’ve had many chances to stomp Fascism in the head while still in the cradle, and we slept on it cuz we needed to “be fair” (but only to white supremacist fascists) and give Fascism a voice at the table in a Democratic system, and look how that infection spread! Now when it’s at our doorsteps we want to fight it in an election!? Give me a break. If you think your vote matters, you haven’t been paying attention. We’re already a Fascist dictatorship, we just think that means boots and bad moustaches and killing Jews, but Fascism is just a nation state where those with the money make the rules and the people don’t. Sound familiar?
People complaining about the process of the Democratic Primary this year seem to have forgotten that there is only one viable candidate this time around.
So…
You’re saying Biden was going to win no matter what, so the DNC yanking NH delegates and Biden being outspoken in support of that is fine?
If he was going to win anyways, why would Biden and the DNC risk taking that incredibly undemocratic step?
Why wouldn’t they just let the most progressive candidate win NH for the third time?
Why remove their delegates and have Biden publicly take himself off the ballot just to spend campaign money on a write in campaign?
How is any of what Biden and the DNC logical if you’re right?
The main point is that if you are ever putting pressure on NH to change the date on their primary election, then this is the time.
Except NH state government is all Republican and the only one that can change the law that NH goes first…
The DNC told NH Dems they had to violate state election laws or lose their delegates.
That is a giant fucking issue, and something I thought republicans wouldn’t even sink to.
There’s no choice, and you acting like there was isn’t a good look.
Did you just not know the details?
Or do you think the DNC telling a state party to break election laws is no big deal?
Change is easier to make early in the process. At the very end of the process, i.e. the election, it’s all but impossible.
Yeah and while it’s ok and good for blue team punters to lecture (“ignorant”, “petulant”) non-biden voters or genocide haters on how important it is to" swallow what they don’t like and vote D", just try and lecture them on any political history or conditions that led to your concerns. Anything that goes against their little sports team sends them into a tizzy
Im guessing they get mad cuz the tv told them to. They really just don’t understand why others won’t buy into their ridiculously simplistic worldview and it gets them breathing hard
Removed by mod
No, we’re mad because we recognize the same rhetoric from 2016 that led to us getting Trump as president, which we’ll be feeling the pain of for generations.
Then do something different?
Moderate politics have dominated the Democratic party for decades and within that time the Republican party has only grown to be a bigger problem. The strategies of the Democratic party are extremely dated. It’s time to try something new.
Hahaha yeah that’s the stuff i mean. I’m saying you guys learned that position from the boob tube. They told you it was the voters who were to blame and y’all bought it.
I, a voter, am playing games. Me. A powerless, voiceless voter is to blame for…(checks your comment) Trump. Now too the voters are given the responsibility of getting rid of him.
Wanna guess which party i voted for in 2016 and 2020? I bet you think i abstained or some shit. No, i did not. I am still responsible for Trump somehow in your mind.
Was it my words that have trump the victory in 2016? Because i wasnt happy to vote for Hillbill but i did.
My words didn’t stop Biden from being elected in 2020. I Didn’t like Biden, Said it very often that i hated him but he got the nom, i held my nose and pushed the big D button.
I guess my voicing displeasure about that changed the minds of countless people. Is that your point? That i am a voice of my people?
Maybe i should look into my civic duty and need to be a cheerleader as well?
What in your mind must i do? If it’s stump for Biden i won’t. In fact, i don’t go around telling people how to vote. I do go around pointing out woeful Dem inadequacies at every turn.
When i come across a “true believer” such as you, with a hard on for lecturing but not much else, what would make someone like you see that i believe i am doing what i should be, that i am a patriot, that bringing up very real issues and contradictions in a political party is what i believe my civic duty to be?
I guess your answer to the age old question of “what would you do if you were in Germany when Hitler was rising to power” is:
“I would dwell on all the problems with his opposition, and then sit smugly that I did the right thing in pursuit of ‘perfect’. It’s not my fault that Hitler took power, and I wash my hands of everything he and his followers are doing”
To put it more plainly - loudly complaining that Biden is bad, dems are bad, etc etc is polarizing people against voting blue/Biden. You may suck it up and vote blue in the end, but look around. Lemmy is full of hardline progressives that have stated they will refuse to vote for Biden in the general election if he doesn’t cut support for Isreal.
Criticism is fine, but it’s extremely important to keep it in perspective, and remind people to vote blue regardless, because it is not an exaggeration when we say we are literally up against fascism and tyranny.
To put it succinctly, support for Gaza is not on the ballot. Support for continued democracy is.
To put it succinctly, support for Gaza is not on the ballot. Support for continued democracy is.
What kind of democracy is that?
Err… the US is a constitutional federal republic, not a direct democracy. So, the answer is: N/A
So support for continued democracy is not on the ballot then?
because it is not an exaggeration when we say we are literally up against fascism and tyranny.
I agree with this at least.
To put it succinctly, support for Gaza is not on the ballot. Support for continued democracy is.
This i do not. I mean i do get what youre sayin, but that’s just too reductive for me. My personal feelings after many years being a registered Democrat is that they don’t represent my interests at all. Maybe they used to, but there’s been a change and i need production not promises. I think it’s long past too late for us folks to get the Dems to listen to us, and there’s only one thing i know how to do when im in a bad relationship i dunno how to fix.
Leave.
Anything other than that is enabling the toxic behavior, and no amount of my exes gaslighting will get me to return to her. You can have her but keep in mind she’s gonna hurt you too, eventually.
Peace
Uh huh. So what you’re saying is that you actually won’t (and probably didn’t) hold your nose and vote blue because you realize what’s at stake. So your above arguments were in bad faith. Got it.
Peace.
Lol is they’re anything in your toolbox i haven’t heard already? Doesn’t it irk you that you sound exactly like errybody else? I mean, i even tried to leave things nice and talk honestly despite your baiting me before. Multiple insults. I thought id go ahead and speak my thoughts, and this is how you repay me.
I would consider thinking very very hard about what you are trying to accomplish but speaking to others like me.
If your goal is changing minds it’s probably better for your cause (the honorable cause of democracy, one insult at a time!) if you just… Don’t.
Cuz this aint it fella.
Now if your goal is to fluff your nuts while sneering at progressive minds so you can feel better about your own intellect, keep it up! That there is a gift that keeps on giving!
You’re never gonna climax with me but there are plenty fish in the sea.
> the same rhetoric from 2016 that led to us getting Trump as president, which we’ll be feeling the pain of for generations.
50 years of democrats helping guide the country got us trump. hell, hillary made sure trump was her opponent in the general. the democrat party is what got us trump in 2016, along with all the people who voted for him.
It’s the dem magalike cult in action. It’s sad because by denying criticisms of Biden, they’re effectively endorsing changing nothing after the election.
Supporting the nominee for president does not preclude criticism.
Is nothing going to change after the election if Biden wins? Probably not, no.
But in this situation, right now, that’s a good outcome given how profoundly things will change if the other person wins.
I don’t know how to make it understood that no matter what criticisms you have about the way Biden and the Democrats have been running this country, absolutely none of them, not a single one, is more important than preventing Trump from winning, because literally everything goes to shit forever if he wins again.
As soon as conservatives got Faux New, neoliberals have been trying to get the same unquestioning support from their voters.
The issue is if Dem voters wanted that shit, they’d be republicans.
The people running the DNC don’t understand basic psychology because when they finished their educations, psychology was still pretty new, and the only big studies was shit like Zimbardo that threw out the scientific method and had researchers meddling with experiments to get the desired result.
Imagine if Verizon hired a guy that stilled used a beeper instead of one of those newfangled mobile phones.
Sounds ridiculous, right?
But that’s what we’re doing with politics and psychology
They’ll all forget how long they’ve been told to ‘wait until next time’ too. Everything happening now happened in 2020. 2016. Fer the love of God, wipe the CNBC outta yer eyes eh?
No shit. Everyone doing protest votes for the Democratic nominee was just that, a protest. Hell, in NC, Biden was the only option.
Come November, there is no way in hell I would vote for Trump. Biden could come to my house, burn down everything I own, punch a baby, kick a puppy, kiss my Dad, and I would still vote for him.
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Populist vote would solve a lot of problems.
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The worry is that some people won’t vote for either.
That is a risk you run when you commit assisted genocide.
You know. Genocide sucks. And I hate what’s happening to Gaza.
But at least Biden didn’t try to overthrow the US government
Shhhhh… we’ve all agreed it’s better not to think about that. It’s like that one movie, Zone of Intention or something? Just float in the pool. Pay no mind to the trains rumbling by.
kiss my Dad
Why do you include this positive in the list of bad things? I would even vote for Trump if he kissed my dad. lol
Jokes on him, he’ll have to find him first. Daddy! Come home, we have milk.
That’s smart. She has to know that things under xtian nationalism would be far worse than under Biden.
We need to be rioting in the streets to change first past the post. The fact that we can only choose from the lesser of two horrible choices is inconceivable.
That said until we have better choices, we still need to consistently choose the better choice.
We need to be rioting in the streets to change first past the post.
Trump’s going to win more than 50% of the vote in my state of Texas. Complaining about FPTP is so 1996 “Ross Perot Could Have Won” energy. In states and districts so heavily weighted that one party will take 60%+ it simply doesn’t matter.
That said, it might be nice if we had real proportional representation - party ballots and larger congressional delegations - such that voting for a Green or Libertarian or Reform party ballot means you might actually be sending someone who shares your views to the assembly, rather than just signaling dissatisfaction with the dominant parties.
Even the California Jungle Primary system would be preferable.
With a proportional representation system the parties hold all of the power and the only thing that matters is the negotiations that happen behind closed doors to form a coalition.
If the party you voted for isn’t part of the ruling coalition then your vote didn’t matter. Sure you got someone sitting in a seat in a legislature that shares your opinions on things but the agenda is already been determined by those who negotiated the coalition.
And while you may thinking that it’s possible that a party that shares your views might get into the ruling coalition, but it’s just as likely that a small far right party could get into a coalition, which is exactly what happened in Israel’s proportional representation system.
Or as we saw in the EU’s proportional representation system, a fringe separatist party can gain notoriety and expand their influence on the population and you end up with a Brexit.
“First past the post” or as I like to call it, a community representation system, has individual representatives control the seat. That individual representative can leave the party and will still hold the seat. Which means the party has to keep the representatives of the communities happy. And those representatives have to keep their communities happy. If a minority group in a community is willing to organize they can influence the representative, and that representative can influence the party. The power dynamics flow from the people upwards.
Proportional representation systems only look good from the perspective of a spreadsheet. From the perspective of power dynamics (which is all important in politics) they’re terrible systems. You get to vote for a party that completely conforms to a checklist, but that party may have zero impact on real policy. Sure you have to make an effort to influence your representative in a community representation system, but shouldn’t the people willing to make the most effort have the most influence?
With a proportional representation system the parties hold all of the power
In a multi-party system, that’s fine. Parties accrue delegates by appealing to a voting base. And candidates get onto the slate by working in and for the parties to bring in new supporters and achieve policy changes.
If the party you voted for isn’t part of the ruling coalition then your vote didn’t matter.
That depends on the parliamentary rules and constitutional provisions. But - generally speaking - if you’ve got a delegate you support in the parliament you’re much better off than if you’re casting a protest vote for an individual or group who will never hold a seat. Even if its a lone Ron Paul / Bernie Sanders esque voice, that’s a foundation around which to build a movement. By contrast, a Ralph Nader outsider who gets seen as a spoiler candidate every four years is going to build more hostility to your movement the more successful it gets.
That individual representative can leave the party and will still hold the seat.
Love my Jim Justice style politician
Why would I want a candidate that can win under a party banner that I support and then turn coat the moment they’re ensconced in a four or six year term of office?
And those representatives have to keep their communities happy.
Not if they’re doing the one-term Senate gambit, like Kristen Sinema. Six years cultivating favors with corporate interests, and then resign before you party can primary you out so you can take a job as a lobbyist.
You get to vote for a party that completely conforms to a checklist, but that party may have zero impact on real policy.
Coalition governments build support by appealing to particular interests of the various party members. That means an “Abolish the National Debt” Party and a “Green New Deal Party” are going to form a different kind of government than a “Green New Deal” and a “Small Business Alliance” party. But if you’re interested in debt-politics and I’m interested in clean energy and third guy is interested in business start-up subsidies, we’re all better off supporting for our issue-centric partisan groups than aligning behind a “Generic Liberal” or “Generic Conservative”.
But - generally speaking - if you’ve got a delegate you support in the parliament you’re much better off than if you’re casting a protest vote for an individual or group who will never hold a seat.
And you’re better off still if you contact your representative about issues that matter to you in a community representation system.
Also people like Bernie Sanders or AOC simply wouldn’t have any prominence in prop rep system. Bernie is an independent that’s popular in his state. AOC is in congress because she won a primary in a safe blue district. They aren’t required to vote on party lines, so the Democratic party has to compromise with them. In a prop rep system they’d either have to fall in line with the party leadership or form their own party and be irrelevant.
Third Parties are only relevant because of their potential to spoil an election. In a multiparty system they no longer have that capability. The only power they could potentially have is in the backroom deals to form a coalition with a larger party if the larger party doesn’t have the majority of the votes. And once again, this kind of thing swings both ways. A center right party may need to form a coalition with far right extremists in order to take power, as we’ve seen happen in Israel.
Not if they’re doing the one-term Senate gambit, like Kristen Sinema. Six years cultivating favors with corporate interests, and then resign before you party can primary you out so you can take a job as a lobbyist.
Next election, Kristen Sinema will be gone. This is an indication of the system working, but you’re characterizing it as a sign of the system being broken. No matter which system you have, it’s not feasible to have elections every week. There will always be bad actors that will require an election to remove from power.
Coalition governments build support by appealing to particular interests of the various party members. That means an “Abolish the National Debt” Party and a “Green New Deal Party” are going to form a different kind of government than a “Green New Deal” and a “Small Business Alliance” party.
Exactly the problem. I don’t have a say in the nature of the coalition that’s formed after the election. I’m not going to 100% agree with any party, and in a Prop Rep system the policies will be determined after the election during backroom deals to form a coalition. I’m in Canada and the Green Party basically imploded over Israel-Palestine even though there’s no chance for them to ever have any influence over foreign policy. Many times I might agree with a party in theory, but politicians tend to be whacky people and party leadership tends to be even whackier. But since the 2 MPs they have represent their communities they can do that job even when the party leadership goes batshit crazy. People can still call their Green Party MPs and those MPs can bring up those concerns in the Parliament even when the party itself is completely broken.
The only reason why Justin Trudeau is PM is because his party has built a lot of capability in identifying community leaders and recruiting those people into the party. People may not even like the party but they like the person they have running in their area, so a few seats can be picked up in this way. It’s interesting how bringing in community leaders is a good strategy to win an election in the “bad” First Past the Post system isn’t it? In a prop rep system you’d want to fill your party with yes men who would go along with whatever the party leadership wants.
Also compare what happens if the party leadership goes nuts in both of these systems. In the first past the post system, if a majority of members (who are beholden to their communities) thinks the leadership is bad, then the leadership is gone. In a prop rep system is there’s any members that don’t like the leadership those members get replaced, because the seats belong to the party, not the people that sit in them.
See politics isn’t just a numbers game. There’s debate and discussion and compromise. Power dynamics should be the primary consideration in any system. Prop Rep is a party first system, the power flows down from the party leadership. In a community representation system the power flows up from the communities. Voters decide who represents the community, community leaders decide who the party leader is. No system is without flaws, but a prop rep is completely dependent on parties which creates too many disconnects between the voters and those in power.
What system do you think is better, then? Because, reading that post, the main takeaway I got was basically “the people that lost a vote don’t have much say in government,” which… That’s how democracy works? I’m confused.
A community representation system is better. Or as a lot of people like to call it, a “first past the post” system.
Sometimes things are named by those who oppose it. For example the Big Bang Theory was called that by people that thought it was preposterous. But it turned out to be the best theory.
“First past the post” was deliberately called that by people pushing a proportional representation system in an effort to make it sound arbitrary and unfair.
But when power dynamics are considered, proportional representation systems are far more arbitrary and unfair. It looks better on a spreadsheet to see the number of seats being proportional to the number of votes. But when you consider the seats are controlled by the parties and not the individuals sitting in them, there’s really no point to having seats at all, other than for optics. An optimal proportional representation system would simply have the each party appoint one representative and that representative would have exactly the number of votes the party got in the last election. The only reason there are legislatures and seats in a proportional representation system is to give people the illusion that there’s a legislative assembly.
A bicameral system with House that is community representation body and a Senate that’s a proportional representation system might be fine. But having seats in a pop rep is really silly, just have each party appoint someone to put on record why they’re voting for or against a bill. And bicameral systems can lead to gridlock, so I’d say that at most a prop rep system should only be able to delay legislation, not block it completely. This would encourage listening to the concerns of minority parties to get legislation passed sooner, but prevents some far right whackadoos from blocking everything because they want the government to fail.
I think what you really need is a civil war to get anything changed. Historically this is how it tends to work.
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stfu
no u
Yeah you got me, I’m a Russian shill bot. Let me know how voting for the lesser of two evil keeps helping your country improve.
You might have been taught in school that democracy is some ideal or maybe living in a market economy has made you think voting should be like picking out a product on amazon and having it delivered to you the next day.
But the reality is that democracy is a grind. You aren’t going to get everything you want by voting in one election. You get a small amount of progress towards the things you want in each successive election. Are you willing to vote in every election available to you for as many decades as it takes to achieve what you want?
If you’re not willing to do this, it shows you’re not really dedicated to any of the causes you espouse.
You say that as though things are slowly getting better, when the opposite is happening. Your two party system is proving to be a failure.
What I also see happening is America drawing closer to civil war each year. You can prolong the inevitable, but it is coming and it will happen… the only question at this point is when?
PS: Love the name. It happens to be my Minecraft name. Huge Cowboy Bebop fan.
By not electing the 10000x worse evil.
You are so hyper focused on Trump you are missing the point.
From an outsiders perspective, it’s irrelevant who you pick, you need a change voting is incapable of creating.
tell you what: when russia’s overthrown putin, we can talk about civil war here. until then, fuck off.
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enjoy the downvotes. lemmy is apparently full of limp-wristed pacifists. oh well. let them learn the hard way what happens when you are too chicken shit to stand up for what’s right.
I’m guessing you’ve never been in a civil war or looked up anything beyond the big battles they make you learn in high school?
The fact that we got out of the American Civil War without several follow on wars, dictators, and remote parts of the country deciding to leave by just ignoring the federal government is a fucking miracle first of all. But they’ve always been fought dirty. Right up there under religious wars. It’s not the Army you need to worry about, it’s your neighbor. The kid you grew up with who’ll give your name to the militia to keep suspicion off of them. It’s mobs armed with voter rolls burning anyone who registered with the other party too recently. It’s bombs in schools and malls. It’s people being arrested in the middle of the night and executed solely because each faction is afraid another faction managed to do something they didn’t see. (And there are always multiple factions in modern civil wars.) It’s the body of the only teacher who gave a damn turning up carved with the initials of a faction. Done of course by a different faction just to stir up animosity.
It’s not about being a coward. It’s about fighting in way that doesn’t turn into a fucking horror show.
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See, little shits? Being a serious person means not masturbating to your ideals until you are murdered.
But what if getting murdered is what gets you off?
Then I want you to call me.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said policy differences toward Israel between her and President Biden won’t stop her from supporting him in the November general election.
“Of course,” Omar said Tuesday, when asked by CNN’s Abby Phillip on “NewsNight” whether she would vote for Biden if the election were held that day, in a clip highlighted by Mediaite.
Last month at a press conference, Omar, a strong supporter of a cease-fire in Gaza, accused the Biden administration “of greenlighting the massacre of Palestinians.” She went after the Biden administration for the approval of extra aid to Israel without congressional approval.
“This administration cannot claim to be an honest broker of peace while greenlighting the massacre of Palestinians.
Omar, in the same Tuesday interview, also accused White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan of not sharing the “full picture” when it comes to Gaza cease-fire talks.
“And the fact that they will not do so says a lot to me, about Hamas’s regard for innocent Palestinian civilians,” Sullivan continued.
The original article contains 350 words, the summary contains 167 words. Saved 52%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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Democracy is all about free choices.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/14/us-settler-sanctions-west-bank
The U.S. Department of Treasury announced new sanctions Thursday against two illegal outposts in the occupied West Bank that were used as a base for attacks by extremist Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians, three U.S. officials told Axios.
Why it matters: It is the first time U.S. sanctions are being imposed against entire outposts and not just against individuals.
The move comes as the Biden administration ratchets up pressure on the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over a range of issues, including settler violence against Palestinians and the war in Gaza. There were nearly 500 Israeli settler attacks against Palestinians between Oct. 7 and Jan. 31 of this year, according to the UN humanitarian office (OCHA).
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas, his most definitive position on the conflict since the terror group killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 200 hostages on Oct. 7.
That month, his campaign also said that, if elected again, he would bar Gaza residents from entering the U.S. as part of an expanded travel ban.
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Given how famously obstinate she is, the fact that even she appreciates the simple reality of the situation should be a wake up call for any people that are still harping on this.
It just doesn’t make any sense to be against Israel’s actions and at the same time do nothing to stop our own Netanyahu from obtaining power.
It’s bizarre to me how there seems to be this contingent of people that don’t understand we are in an emergency situation. It’s not even “lesser of two evils” anymore it’s “the building is in flames, grab the nearest fire extinguisher”.
Biden IS the lesser of two evils. That’s what we’re saying.
We WANT to grab a fire extinguisher. Not a smaller lighter.
But there’s no reason to believe you’ll reach the extinguisher, it’s pretty much impossible in first past the post.
I love how I’m getting voted down for saying WANT.
Did I say I wasn’t going to vote for Biden over Trump? No. STOP ACTING LIKE IT, YOU MORONS.
It’s still very much the lesser of two evils. The degrees are not on the same scale, but it’s still the lesser of two evils.
The fact of the matter is that democrats are betting it all on the least popular president in modern history, who is also an octogenarian. The hope is he will somehow be disliked less than cheetolini.
The problem isn’t that democrats are going to vote for Trump. The problem is that polling indicates that Biden is already losing, so every person that decides NOT to vote for him by staying home or voting third party is just another nail in the coffin.
Biden deciding to run for reelection is the presidential politics equivalent of Ginsburg refusing to retire. And it’s right there in front of us. And we know it’s insane. But now everyone is just knuckling down and buckling up, because here we are.
You’re an idiot
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Very mid.
Disgusting. Or we can not support him and set a precedence for the rest of time that a president cannot survive genocide.
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You can work within the system or outside of it. Within the system there are only two actual presidential options, Republican or Democrat.
I despise Biden for what he’s complicit in as well, but on election day there’s not much we can do. We’re not getting every Democrat to vote for a third party, and even if we did it would still have to get past the electoral college. The time to fight within the system is every other day.
Now if you’re talking about sending messages in other, more old school french ways…
