• Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Do they think Trump would be better than Biden when it comes to Palestinians? The Trump that moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to signal that it was an Israeli city?

  • jordanlund@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    “I’ll put my cards on the table: I’m a permanent resident of the US which means I’m not allowed to vote.”

    Then you can STFU and sit down. You want to be able to vote? Get your citizenship. My daughter-in-law JUST did. This will be her first election. She’s not going to do anything that supports a Trump win.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/us/politics/trump-travel-ban.html

    Hint - She’s from one of these countries.

  • Lopen's Left Arm@sh.itjust.works
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    4 months ago

    I’ll blame each and every eligible person who didn’t show up to vote for him, regardless of what their excuse is. This isn’t the time to be playing around.

    • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Looks like the US is going to get some tough love.

      Turns out you can’t just fund, supply and cast UN vetoes in support of the genocide of an entire people and still get unconditional support at the ballot box, whoda thunkit.

      And yes, the consequences are going to be hideous.

      I guess you should have thought of that, what with everyone telling you over and over and over.

      Cabin in the Woods moment, and you brought it on yourselves.

    • CaractacusPottsOP
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      4 months ago

      But you won’t blame the Biden administration for disregarding the wishes of their constituents?

      • dogslayeggs@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Do you (or anyone who thinks not voting for Biden is a smart thing) think that Trump would do anything differently? Because those are the two choices. If you don’t vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump by taking away votes from Biden… unless you live in a blue or red state where your vote doesn’t matter anyway.

        I do blame Biden for how he is handling this situation. However, I am smart enough to understand that there is more than one situation that a president has to handle while in office. For the most part, Biden has honored the wishes of me as a constituent. If the only thing you care about in life is how the President of the US handles a conflict on the other side of the world, as opposed to the US economy, civil rights in the US, US Supreme Court justices, US circuit court judges, environmental policy in the US, etc., then that is your right as a voter. I hate what is going on over in Gaza (and the region in general), but I also care about is going on in the country I live in.

        • iAmTheTot@kbin.social
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          4 months ago

          If you don’t vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump

          I’m so tired of this rhetoric. Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them. Americans should not be strong armed into voting for a candidate they don’t actually want.

          • rudyharrelson@kbin.social
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            4 months ago

            Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them.

            Voting is like freedom of speech. Everyone is free to vote for whoever they want, but they aren’t immune from criticism for how they vote. If someone votes for a guy who says he’ll “be a dictator on day one” and encourage Russia to “do whatever the hell they want”, I’m gonna shame that person for supporting such an insupportable candidate who espouses such insane ideas.

            • iAmTheTot@kbin.social
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              4 months ago

              To be clear, I was directly responding to someone who was claiming that not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I hate that rhetoric and it’s not true. If you want to blame someone for Trump winning, you blame the people that voted for him.

              • jmp242@sopuli.xyz
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                4 months ago

                Sure, but what I’d say is I’ll still say in this fricken 2 party system, you also have to justify not going for the lesser of two evils, however you define that. And if your position is “I want someone to stop Israel continuing their war on Hamas”, you also have to contend with the idea that neither option is likely to do what you want. This just reads to me like throwing a fit that mommy brought you peas instead of beans with your dinner and saying you want daddy, when he’s not bringing any food at all.

                • iAmTheTot@kbin.social
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                  4 months ago

                  I don’t have to justify not voting for the lesser evil when I can vote for an option that is, in my opinion of course, not evil at all. I encourage every American to vote, and vote for who you actually want to be the President, not just against who you don’t want.

              • rudyharrelson@kbin.social
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                4 months ago

                Sure, but you also said not to shame people for how they vote. I responded specifically to that statement and not the others because I understand wanting to vote for a candidate you actually want in office.

                Unfortunately, strategic voting has to occur in order for things to get better in the USA. Until we massively overhaul the voting system, voters need to understand that you either vote for the lesser of two evils, or are (albeit passively) contributing to the greater of two evils’ ascent to power.

                Even far-left progressives like Bernie Sanders or Noam Chomsky were like, “Dude, you gotta vote for the Democratic candidate or else these crazy far-right candidates are gonna push the country further to the right. At least if the Democratic candidate wins we either stay where we are, or maybe get to move a bit further left during their tenure.”

                It’s a deeply flawed system, but in the general election, it’s a simple calculus. There’s nothing Biden could do to lose my vote in November because I owe it to our society (and our allies worldwide) to prevent another Trump term.

                • iAmTheTot@kbin.social
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                  4 months ago

                  I said that as a direct response to someone saying not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I wasn’t trying to make some general statement. I don’t know how else to say that.

                  If you want to judge a Trump voter for voting for Trump, judge them on that merit. Don’t judge someone that didn’t vote for Trump if Trump wins, that’s bullshit.

              • Perfide@reddthat.com
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                4 months ago

                Okay but we’re in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It’s either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.

                Both of them support Israel, one with slowly(very slowly, yes) waning support and the other essentially saying he’d gladly help turn Palestine into rubble.

                Domestically, Biden has been doing pretty good. The rail strike was a fiasco but besides that he’s mostly been a small step forward from Obama.

                Meanwhile, Trump is Trump. His first term was a complete disaster for the country, and now he’s outright saying he’ll be a dictator rounding up the “enemy”, he’s saying he won’t defend our allies from Russia, he’s well and truly dementia-addled now(Mercedes? oof), etc…

                Voting for Trump is far worse obviously, but not voting against him still makes it more likely he wins. Just as you have the freedom to make that decision, I have the freedom to judge the shit out of you for it.

                • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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                  4 months ago

                  Okay but we’re in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It’s either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.

                  Ever consider that we only get to choose between these two parties because people like you fear mongering and demanding everyone maintain the status quo?

                  If it’s guaranteed that Trump or Biden are winning then elections are obviously foregone conclusions, our votes don’t really matter, and neither party has any reason to ever change because they’re guaranteed to hold at least 50% of power at any given time. We might as well eliminate ballots and just automatically declare a winner based on party registration numbers.

            • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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              4 months ago

              If Biden is polling to lose and Trump ends up winning, you’re also supporting Trump by backing a losing candidate and handing the election over to Trump.

          • Perrin42@kbin.social
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            4 months ago

            If you are eligible to vote, and don’t, that is the same as a vote for the winner - whoever that is.

            • tal@lemmy.today
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              4 months ago

              Nah, only half as strong.

              Candidate A and Candidate B.

              Vote for A: Candidate A has 1 vote

              Vote for B: Candidate B has 1 vote

              Vote for neither: 0 vote for either. Midway between the two outcomes.

              That being said, voting for neither doesn’t make much sense for anyone in terms of outcome. If you prefer one outcome, it doesn’t make much sense to only use half of the strength of your vote to support that outcome.

              Not voting makes more sense if you’re making the argument that the time spent voting isn’t worth the return you get.

            • iAmTheTot@kbin.social
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              4 months ago

              No, it’s not. For the record, I’m a huge advocate of voting. I think everyone should vote for the candidate they believe in.

              • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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                4 months ago

                If you’re driving in a bus with 40 people voting on where to go, with 14 wanting to drive to a buffet, 16 wanting to drive off a cliff, and 15 saying that they don’t care enough to vote but they don’t really want to go to the buffet because they’re not hungry, yes, I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.

                • Perfide@reddthat.com
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                  4 months ago

                  And before anyone judges this analogy because one option is objectively good while the other is objectively bad: Everyone is guaranteed to get food poisoning at the buffet. Now both options are objectively bad, but I’m still judging the people content with going over the cliff.

                • iAmTheTot@kbin.social
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                  You can criticize the fact that they didn’t vote, I literally just said that I think everyone should vote. But that’s not the same as saying they did vote for the winner. If you’re mad that the bus is driven off a cliff, then be upset with the people that did vote for it.

                  This is excusing that I personally think your analogy is an oversimplification.

                • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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                  4 months ago

                  I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.

                  But you’ll happily sit on the bus, never questioning why you’re helping to maintain a system that results in such terrible options, and then blame others when that system you help to maintain comes back to bite you in the face.

          • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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            4 months ago

            This is rhetoric from party loyalists who don’t give a shit about the country. It’s the Democratic version of MAGA, people who actively vote against their own best interests just to ‘stick it to the other guy,’ while the country crumbles and the rest of us suffer.

        • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          The Democratic Party is well past due for a purging. If they won’t do it themselves, I honestly won’t be mad to see them face the MAGAts they helped raise. Trump is 80 years old and has had a lifetime of cheeseburgers and spray tans, in the worst case scenario, he’ll last five years and America would be better off in the long term for it.

          • dogslayeggs@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            If you really think the US would be better off in the long term if Trump gets elected, then you obviously haven’t paid attention to the very long term damage he did while in office. Trump 1 got to replace 3 justices. Biden has had the chance to replace 1. With looming retirements of a couple justices, Trump 2 would get to replace another 2. That would cement a 5 to 4 ultra-conservative Supreme Court for a good 20 years. Additionally, his tax cuts for the wealthy and refusal to raise interest rates weren’t exactly great for long term stability of our economy.

            I agree with the D’s needing to have a wholesale change of leadership, though.

            • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Comservativism is a race to the bottom; its a naturally implosive idealogy. Yes, America will be better off in the long term (read: more than five years) once the Dinocrats are put out to pasture and the MAGAts kill each other in a power vacuum after Trump kicks the bucket. America needs a revolution - any revolution - and the Dems are married to the status quo. I think most actual leftists in America are waking up to the idea that they are a dead-end for actual change and the only possible route for things to get better is by weathering a decade of Trumpism and building new from the damage that is promised to bring.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Versus someone who would be even worse for Palestinians and Americans? No, I won’t blame Biden if people let Trump in over the issue of Palestine. Because it means they were fast asleep between 2016 and 2020.

        • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Thats what fucking matters. Do you want to fucking beat Trump or not? Whats your priority here? Running Biden or beating Trump? You have to pick one.

          There is a genocide going on now not later. Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not. This isn’t a hypothetical. If Israel is allowed to continue, by April, there won’t be a Palestinian people in Gaza to consider. They’ll have been starved/ bombed to death, by Israel with the explicit support of Joe Biden.

          Do you not fucking get it?

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            There’s another genocide going on now in the U.S. that people like you don’t seem to care about and which Trump will absolutely make far worse.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_genocide#United_States

            Because the genocide of queer people in the U.S. apparently is far less important and if Trump gets into office, has already planned and made clear that it will be far worse.

            But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.

            • stoneparchment@possumpat.io
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              4 months ago

              hey I see and appreciate you, I’m also trans, I literally research justice initiatives for LGBTQ+ and specifically trans* individuals in the USA

              but my friend, can we please not compare what’s happening to us to what is happening to Palestinians? This makes us look like ignorant assholes

              Trans people might be next in line for literal genocide, but right now we’re experiencing ideological violence more than physical violence

              In fact, when we closely examine violence against trans people, the rates of murder and physical violence are only elevated for trans individuals who are poor and people of color. White, middle class trans people are actually less likely to experience physical violence than non-trans poor POCs. That could change depending on political winds, but…

              Right now, people in Palestine are experiencing something horrific and unprecedented that eclipses trans suffering in the USA. I am right there with you, afraid of the march of fascism, afraid of what another Trump presidency might bring for our community. But I am not getting airstriked, starved, and war crimed right now. My children are not being shot in the head. I can write about these issues online and in my professional life and not get hung for it. It’s just not the same.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                No. It’s not the same. But it is still genocide. As the link shows, it fits that definition. And the person is telling me that I shouldn’t do something to stop that genocide because there’s another genocide that neither Trump nor Biden is going to do anything to stop and both will make worse. It seems to me that Americans should work on stopping the genocide that is happening in our own country with our vote rather than voting for some third party in protest or sitting at home when that has never worked.

                • stoneparchment@possumpat.io
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                  4 months ago

                  Yeah, you’re objectively correct for encouraging people to vote for Biden instead of sit at home in November. Just please, please, please… I deal with offline average joes all the time. If we make one to one comparisons of our situation with that of Palestinians, most people will be disgusted and think we’re incredibly off base.

                  We are in agreement across the board. I just want to caution you to be mindful of the comparison, is all.

                • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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                  4 months ago

                  You’re not stopping either genocide if you elect the same guy who is currently doing nothing (and is actually actively making them worse) about either of these things. That’s pure cognitive dissonance.

            • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              So we’re just completely changing the subject?

              Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is “No”, the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He’s doing fucking horribly. He’s losing this election and we haven’t even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.

              If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he’s not going to win in November.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Pointing out that you are ignoring a genocide in the U.S. that Trump and his people want to make worse is not changing the subject. It’s pointing out that you’re ignoring a genocide. Which you are.

                But please tell me who I should vote for to stop that genocide. Give the name of the candidate that would get enough votes to beat Trump.

                Because if you wanted someone other than Biden, you shouldn’t have waited until after the primaries started.

                But go ahead- give me a name.

                • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Millions of Palestinians are facing starvation right now. They will be dying en-masse before the end of March if something doesn’t change. Joe Biden is supporting this. He just lost There is no equivalence happening within the borders of the United States, except maybe our prison system. Yes the Republicans are setting the ground work for a genocide of queer people in this country. We have to stop them. Insisting that we support a candidate who is clearly losing the election is no way to do this. We can’t afford to lose this election and insisting that Biden be the nominee is insisting we lose this election.

                  Uncommitted just won two delegates in Michigan. Biden will not win this election unless he massively shifts his position on Gaza.

            • Primarily0617@kbin.social
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              4 months ago

              so biden is currently presiding over and doing nothing to stop two genocides? and you want to reward that with an unconditional vote of support, so that next time democrats are in office, they’ll know that people don’t care?

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Reward? No. I want to stop the one who will make it worse.

                And if you can tell me who I should vote for to stop Trump that isn’t Biden, a person that is more likely to get more electoral college votes than Biden will against Trump, please name the person.

                • Primarily0617@kbin.social
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                  4 months ago

                  biden’s only selling point at the moment is that he isn’t trump, so with 6 months of campaigning and biden’s endorsement you could probably sell any democrat

                  me giving you a name now is almost entirely pointless given that you’re just going to turn around and say that because they haven’t already done that campaigning you can’t imagine them being popular

                  Reward? No. I want to stop the one who will make it worse.

                  do you or do you not acknowledge that by voting biden you’re sending a message to the dnc that their voter base doesn’t care about genocide?

            • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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              4 months ago

              But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.

              Isn’t that exactly what you’re arguing for? The guy currently in office, who you want to re-elect, is the one presiding over both of these genocides. How the hell does re-electing him make things any better?

                • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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                  How exactly does genocide get worse? Are they going to start reanimating the corpses of these dead men, women, and children and then kill them a second time?

          • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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            4 months ago

            Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not.

            So, are you claiming that if the United States stops sending some military aid to Israel, Netanyahu will be unable to continue military operations in Gaza? Because if so, you are sorely mistaken. Israel’s military is perfectly self-sufficient, and if you think they particularly care about some UN resolutions, you need to talk to some Israelis.

            American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome. Joe Biden could not unilaterally stop Israeli operations in Gaza unless he declared war on Israel and deployed troops, and I can assure you that isn’t going to be happening. Not to mention, China, Russia, India, Europe, and all of South America also exist. Americans do not unilaterally decide everything that happens or doesn’t happen in the world. We’re not that important.

      • Lopen's Left Arm@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, “Don’t permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant.” Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that’s not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.

        • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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          If Biden can’t beat a fascist demagogue and petty tyrant and Trump ends up winning, then I’d argue it’s your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump. The blame would fall squarely on your shoulders.

          • SaltySalamander@kbin.social
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            4 months ago

            I’d argue it’s your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump

            Who, exactly, is this mythical figure that could beat Trump at this point in the game? C’mon, give us a name.

            • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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              4 months ago

              Oh, not the party loyalists like yourself who would rather back a losing candidate than allow a winner to run in their place?

              Have you ever stopped to consider how someone could find a bloated, orange maniac more appealing than the guy you’re trying to shame everyone into voting for and what that says about your political views?

                • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
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                  4 months ago

                  Sanders would bring in the most, make him the nominee and you would keep the never trumpers, bring in some moderates, lose some moderates.

                  The math comes down to would the amount of moderates/independents you lose to apathy or trump, double points for the ones who would vote trump instead of sanders since the other team gains 1 and you lose 1, compared to how many moderates/independents and how many leftists you get.

        • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, “Don’t permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant.” Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that’s not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.

          Right now, today, supporting Biden any further is handing Trump a W.

          Biden has lost the election at this point. It would be the biggest election upset of ALL TIME if he came back to win it. No incumbent this far down in the polling has EVER won an election.

          If you truly want to stop Trump, stop brow beating people into supporting a lost cause and work to have a conversation around how we can get a better candidate. I think Shawn Fein.

          • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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            4 months ago

            And Obama solidly lost his election against Romney if you looked at polls this far out. A strong case can be made that polls at this point are not predictive.

            I think Shawn Fein.

            Ignoring the fact that mine and most American’s immediate reaction to this is “Who?”, the fact that he has zero experience in elected office will be disqualifying to most people. He seems like a decent guy, and I’d love to see him in some sort of office some day, but this is not a serious suggestion.

            Also, to quote him:

            Proud to cast my vote for President @JoeBiden today, the first day of early in-person voting in the state of Michigan!

            https://twitter.com/ShawnFainUAW/status/1758917912318902276

          • jmp242@sopuli.xyz
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            4 months ago

            Oh god, finally gave a name. Who the hell is Shawn Fein? If I haven’t already heard of them, it’s a lost cause too - because they have no brand recognition. This is the dilemma and one I’ve been banging on about since before Obama. It’s kind of insane the Democratic party seems to hope for a repeat of that once in a lifetime basically out of nowhere candidate / win. For reasons I don’t get, Democrats are not building up people in advance to be candidates. So people have at least heard of them.

            The problem is as far as I know there aren’t any well known middle aged democrats who could run that have any national stance. Schumer is also too old, Bernie is also too old, and then there’s the sexism that makes me question if Warren could run, and then there’s the racism that makes Kamala and Cortez pretty unlikely to get far either.

            I thought the entire four years that Democrats needed to have someone in the news and convince Biden to back them a year ago. That didn’t happen. We already lost this years ago if Biden can’t win it. I’m just still amazed that there’s any support for Trump (well, ever, but certainly after the facts of his first term).

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              4 months ago

              Point taken on Shawn Fein. He is the UAW president, and got Biden to come down to the picket line.

              But overall, almost 100% agree. I don’t see any current Democrats with ‘enough’ of the right stuff to get handed the reigns and win. Its why I’m looking outside the party. I really think if Jon Stewart were to throw his hat in, he could win. He’s young enough, he doesn’t have the baggage that an existing candidate has, people know him, he’s a darling of the left. He’s been politically active although he hasn’t run (point against I supposed, but not a deal breaker. Didn’t stop Trump did it?).

              Biden has blown this campaign with his position on Israel. He needs to drive voters out, and he’s pulling a classic Democrat move of just assuming that the support for him is there. The ship is sinking. This is a five-alarm fire moment. He has no opponents in this primary and is losing support. You don’t win elections like that.

              If the liberals are going to keep insisting that we support Biden even though it becomes more and more clear as time goes on that he isn’t going to win, I don’t know where that leaves us. I don’t want to suffer through what Trump will do to this country. If Trump wins, I’d be shocked if we even have elections again. Expect every non-cis person in this country to be rounded up and executed. I don’t think its hyperbole to suggest that. I think the right would do that today if they had the power.

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Or the Democratic establishment rigging a primary in 2020, and then forgoing one in 2024, to have one of the least democratic races of all time?

        If this was an election in Turkey, the US would be imposing sanctions.

    • Primarily0617@kbin.social
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      4 months ago

      Does this mean that the victims of the next genocide the democrats preside over can blame you for supporting the last one unconditionally?

    • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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      4 months ago

      When is the time to be ‘playing around?’ Your phrase gets repeated every single election meaning you’re doing nothing more than reinforcing the status quo.

      This is the behavior of sycophants and rivals that of the MAGA base. “Shut up, don’t criticize, and mindlessly vote for my guy, or it’s the end of the world as we know it!”

      • Lopen's Left Arm@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        The primary. A general election in which a fascist like Donald Trump isn’t the only other viable option.

        Like it or not, we have a two party system. Either Biden’s going to be the next president, or Trump is. When it comes to the general election, if you do anything besides voting for Biden, you’re complicit in electing Trump.

        • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
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          4 months ago

          If you back Biden and he loses, you’re also directly responsible for electing Trump. Another candidate would have beaten him.

          • Lopen's Left Arm@sh.itjust.works
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            4 months ago

            Which candidate, specifically, A) Wants to be president and is willing to run, B) Is better than Biden on the issues you mentioned, and C) Has a reasonable chance of beating Trump in the general election?

            I’m dead serious, pitch me a name.

            • ReallyActuallyFrankenstein@lemmynsfw.com
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              4 months ago

              The people in these threads never have an alternative. They are drunk on righteous fury and just want their clarity of purpose to result in clarity of action. To do this, they flip the classic logical fallacy on its head and have to argue, “the means justify the ends.” Voting against Biden to them is an unassailable means, wherever the ends lead.

              • Lopen's Left Arm@sh.itjust.works
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                4 months ago

                Sanders isn’t running this election. In fact, he’s supporting Biden. He’s not a reasonable option to try to dump Biden for.

  • Perfide@reddthat.com
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    4 months ago

    No, I will blame them. Make your threats to Biden all you want, put all the pressure on him to stop supporting the genocide, absolutely. But come election day if you don’t realize that Biden, even as is, is still a far, far better option than Trump, then yes anyone staying home over this is absolutely partially to blame.