No clean hands here. The whole situation is garbage. The particularly salient point is that Israel, as the nation-state actor and a liberal democracy is expected to act more responsibly and with a higher moral character. Bibi’s a trash human being, but the longer this goes (and has gone) on the more and more of the culpability is shared by everyday Israelis.
The entire conflict was started by israel when they stole the Palestinians land.
And the only party actively refusing to resolve the conflict is also israel, openly saying they will never acknowledge a Palestinian state and proudly presenting their plans to colonize the west bank as well.
The term “liberal democracy” is rather generous for a Nazi-like apartheid.
No, no, no… Clearly the Palestinians are just squatters when the Israelis, the true indigenous people, went on a little vacation. …
/s. Are we still doing this?
Horrid take
In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here’s a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
is all of this compiled anywhere else? bullet points or something with links?
i believe it, but i won’t spread it unless i can verify it.
Yes this video is actually addressing his article which is filled with links and evidence:
Netanyahu’s War on Truth - Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
If you skip the chapter “intelligence failures” and go straight to “Information warfare” you’ll find evidence for all his claims in the video.
the entire article fully formatted in markdown
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
Being an asshole rarely brings people to your side
You’re right I have repeated myself a lot over the last months which tends to get tiring but this person might not yet be up to date.
I will rephrase my previous comment thank you for pointing it out.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can’t say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go “your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages”, which couldn’t be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
You mean all those videos are fake?
No. Misinformed. Most of them were real videos but were not related to palestine or israel.
Is the video where toilet boxes at the music festival are getting shooted at not related to Palestine or Israel?
Can you provide a link?
Many of the videos are real. Hamas definitely shot some civilians. The problem is all the burnt bodies.
If you ask the question “How did Israel count 250 burnt Hamas fighters as Israeli civilians” the narrative falls apart.
I don’t think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I’d like to ask a question “is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?”.
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a “hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians” narrative, than any other explanation would fit the “Israel doesn’t care about Israeli” narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
I saw all the videos of Oct7.
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
How many hostages does Israel hold?
So is it okay to propose that hamas could have a success if they captured the same amount?
No israel would still kill all the hostages held by Hamas. Their government doesn’t care about hostages.
I watched a few minutes of your video. For the love of all that is holy, Gaza is not a concentration camp - they are not being forced into slavery, gassed, tortured, experimented upon and systematically killed. It’s not even an “open air prison”. What are you people talking about? How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about first hand??
They are being kept there, they are not allowed to leave. Normally I would call that a prison, but prison would imply that they were convicted of a crime, which they weren’t. They are kept there, because Israel considers Palestinians to be an undesirable ethnicity. That is a concentration camp. You are conflating concentration camp with the nazi death camps.
Kept? What are they animals to you? Who said they can’t leave?
Palestinians with dual nationality might be able to leave, but most of them can’t just leave. Gaza is surrounded by blockades imposed by Israel and Egypt, which restrict movement. Israel prevents access to and from Gaza by sea and air. Land movement is restricted to three crossings: the Egypt-controlled Rafah crossing and Erez and Kerem Shalom crossings, which Israel controls.
The blockades exist due to Gaza being governed by a terrorist organization, but I wouldn’t make a blanket statement that Gazans are all forced to stay there. Hell, hundreds of thousands of them were routinely coming into Israel for work. Voting for and electing a terror organization whose main goal is openly eradicating all of Israel and Jews might create some emigration problems though.
No Palestinians can leave! what blockade?
Actually Palestinians can’t leave because they’re all Hamas
pick one
most citizens of Isn’treal have dule citizenship, why do you genocidal manachs just leave.
also is Hamas in the room right now?
also agian, Eradicating a genocidal state is a noble goal, and the only place saying their goal is eradication of jews is Isn’treal who also says that critisizing them is tantimout to anti-semitism, when there is a stronger historical connection to zionism and anti-semitism
the closed borders on both sides,
the fact Isn’treal has been providing “safe locations” then promptly bombing them in violation if international law
the fact Isn’treal has been bombing hospitals and schools in violation of international law
also no one here has said anything about them being animals … but the Isn’treal government has… a mark of a genocidal government.
I mean, there’s still some shit going on.
A group of UN “experts” (which are independent people) demanded an investigation. Why would that be evidence of anything?
The ICJ found that there was Genocide and Ruled that Isn’treal must take all steps practicle to stop the genocide, why have you not done that yet?
You’re half right. They did say Israel (come on man you can do it, spell right) must take all steps to stop a genocide from happening (because there isn’t one happening right now) and they demanded Hamas release all hostages. Why have you not done that yet?
I mean first, I need to point out that that Isn’treal was convicted genocide.
I would also like to point out that the “hostages” potentialy could be called Prisoners of war, have been demonstrated as safer with Hamas as the IOF has shot released POWs who have come under a white flag to the IOF
People are locked in a camp
People are bombed to death
People are starved to death
How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about at all?
Are you denying that the Holocaust happened because you weren’t there first hand?
What is arrogant about what I said?
Oh ok you’re a bot. Got it.
Answer the damn questions
Did I break the AI?
Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren’t then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Exactly, its not Israel that started this war, if you go stab a bear its not really the bears fault when it mauls you.
The bear isn’t a democratic society with moral obligations not to commit ethnic cleansing.
Do you think the history of Palestinian/Israeli relations started last October? Lmao.
Ya, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel for nearly 80 years, and they were murdering Jews for centuries before that too.
And Israel the state has been murdering Palestinians for nearly 80 years as well.
This conflict is mentioned in the Quran, this holy war has been going on for thousands of years.
Are you comfortable with Israel killing, injuring, and destroying the homes, businesses, and communities of Gazans?
Of course I’m not but I’m also not surprised that its happening after Oct 7. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire, from both sides, and then hash out some kind of diplomatic compromise. Not up to me though
I would also like a cease fire. Or truce. An armistice or something that creates a short term and then a long term peace where the Palestinians can have the freedoms that the Israelis have. Though that may be too much to ask.
I can’t explain Hamas’ thinking for the actions of Oct. 7th. But I can see, if we work your analogy, that they didn’t just go out to poke a bear. Rather, the bear has been menacingly hovering over Palestinians after coming into the home and swiping at them for decades. They can either die slowly doing nothing, or fight back knowing that they can be morally injured. Meanwhile, all your neighbors are saying you should let the bear live peacefully in your home. In fact, the city council made a plan for that to happen. Enen your friends are like, “The bear isn’t that bad.” So you fight back. And your friends aren’t on team bear anymore. And some neighbors are like “WTF bear!” And none of that happens without knifing the bear.
We’d love to meet Hamas alone on a battlefield. Can you set it up?
I mean I would love for a Genocide to stop happening from a Setteler colonial nation, who seems hell bent on the extermination of a multi-religious group of people,(because yes there where and are palistianian jews) can you please set that up?
Nice try Ret. General Gantz! We know you’d rather push the Palestinians into the sea.
Yeah, yeah we’d rather kill all Palestinians, sure. Cause Jews are so evil forcing their religion and culture on everybody else, killing and beheading people in the name of their god in a war against democracy, liberalism, equal rights and “the west”.
who said anything about Jews, We are talking about Isn’treal here, 1) stop conflaiting the 2
second OMFG your second sentence is so ubelevably racist
Benny… c’mon my friend! We know what you want. Just say it. It’s freeing. Don’t hide behind deflection.
I. want. pro Palestinians to explain why they think Israel wants to exterminate Palestinians while ignoring Hamas’s slogan for the eradication of Israel and Jews. It’s reverse psychology right? If we would say that we want to erase Gaza then you’d believe we have good intentions, right?
no Isnt’real started it when they where doing the slow genocide, you cannot blame an opressed group for fighting their opression. your poking the bear analigy in no way holds up. Isn’treal was not minding its buisness it was before the opporation still activly genoicing the palistinians.
“Isn’treal” he said while wafting up and smelling his own Cheeto farts
Look, Would you rather I use the correct name of a state that has been founded from day one on genociding the palistinians?
Yes please. Otherwise it’s cringy. Nobody is “genociding” your precious Palestinians man. It was founded for Jews to have a safe place. But it’s kinda hard when all Muslim countries surrounding it keep poking it and getting their asses kicked. Hey if we wanted it to be fair there should be as many Christian countries as Muslim and Jewish and Buddhist and atheist etc. countries. But unfortunately Jews have been “genocided” for thousands of years and they only have one tiny country to call home in a sea of Arab.
Look man, I have no care about being “cringy” I think your complet lack of human empathy or geoplolitical understanding is cringe, but that is not the reason I am arguing.
No the reason Isn’treal was founded (yes I am doubling down on it) was a fuffilment of Zionism, at the time was seen as a deeply anti-semetic idea, and it arguably still is, it is we do not want the Jews near us, Their only argument for it is that the tora talked about it their, and may I point out that it is rediculous that we would use a holy book as justification for kicking people who where living in an area already out of their homes. Palistine already existed as the Palistinian Mandate, it was a mandate under the UK as a comprimise after WW1 for the dissilusion of the Ottoman empire, between self determination of the locals, and the empire building of the great powers of the time, so the idea being is it would be the UK’s in name only. Isn’treal soon after they took over the Mandate of Palistine, did the Nakba, removal of all political rights and posessions, and forced migrations into the gettos, massicers and killings, destruction of importion cultrual and comunity sights, and this, Fimbulwinter, is why their neighbors dislike them, this event right here,
If you are curious the reason why there are so many isalmic nations in the area, we can look at the ottoman empire, I also want to point out that their are 0 Athiest nations, a large amount of Christian nations.
So yes Isn’treal has been genocidal from day one, you can even ask the first person they asked to be president Albert Einstine who refused on the basis of the being genocidal.
Hey man, your reason and logic aren’t going to hold up to the Qatari and Iranian Propaganda. Doesn’t matter that one side rejected the deal offered at the start, doesn’t matter that one side refuses to acknowledge the other sides existence. This is the time when people can shit on Jews, err I mean Zionists and feel good about themselves.
The oppressor narrative is pretty hilarious when you put it into the context of a simple map showing Arab countries vs non Arab countries in the region. Next we’ll start hearing about how those countries all converted without a single drop of blood LMFAO.
Being opposed to a LITERAL GENNOCIDE is not Qatari or Iranian propoganda, it is having a simple moral compass.
Also there is a considerable difrence between Zionists and Jews and if you do not understand that there is a problem
3rd untill fairly recently Zionism was considered anti-semetic… and it arguably is anti-semetic
4th I have heard no one say that the conversion to Islam was without wars, are you saying that we need to do a GENOCIDE to get that? really man?
Thanks man. I needed to hear that.
Israel is partially to blame for how successful Hamas’s attack on October 7th was and of course for the original motivation to commit such strikes.
And Hamas is to blame for the retaliation. 🤷♂️
So if I shot you, it’s partly your fault for not dodging, right ?
Except, in this case, you had him tied to a chair first and shot him because he spat on you.
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Does the tourists at the rave beat the shit out of them ?
Idk ask idf
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Gaza is just the Stanford Prison Experiment on a larger scale.
Yes exactly.
Exactly what?
Aye stop killing civilians Abraham you cunt
Consistency is not necessary, IMO. What did Israel expect Gaza to do when they started genociding them? The deaths of all civilians as well as all combatants are the fault of Israel. They don’t get to play dumb about what was going to happen after starting a genocide.
I disagree. It’s difficult to ask perfection from Palestinian resistance but there were still mistakes made. But two wrongs do not make a right and we need to stay morally consistent.
If a Hamas fighter did knowingly shoot a non-combatant then that action is wrong.
But how can they possibly know someone is a non-combatant? The opponent doesn’t even follow the Geneva convention, meaning it’s correct to fire on people wearing a red cross, carrying a white flag, etc.
Well yes israel doesn’t follow any rules. They should all be Neurenberged. But the goal is not lowering to israels level.
To be clear I do not care if Hamas attacks IDF.
There are several instances of Hamas soldiers not attacking non combatants which was good.
But there are definitely cases of other soldiers not doing this. They are not a monolith.
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Russians killing Ukrainians = Genocide Israel killing Palestinians = Freedom fighters
I have no idea what you are trying to say
Add a line break between “genocide” and “israel”.
Exactly.
Hamas started the war. Hamas took hostages to force a ground campaign. Hamas spent huge amounts of resources building an underground tunnel network. To say they dug in within the civilian population of Gaza is a massive understatement. Hamas does not wear uniforms when they fight.
Those are facts that oversimplified cartoon memes can’t change.
Even if we assume everything you said was completely true and without merit… Does it justify IDF knowingly killing civilians?
It’s war. If there’s a valid military objective, then you hit the target even when you know civilian casualties are possible. Efforts should be made 9and they are) to prevent civilian casualties, but in a war civilian casualties are inevitable.
Hamas knew civilian casualties would happen in the war they started. In fact they started the war by killing civilians. Hamas simply didn’t care about civilian casualties, both Israeli and Palestinian.
Isn’treal has been doing a genoicide lots longer than october the 8th, look at the Nakba, Heck look at the statments the government of Isn’treal makes about the palistinians.
The good old cycle of violence, huh? Logically if the Nakba justifies October 7, then October 7 justifies everything that’s happening now.
Of course logically speaking, when you choose violence, the only thing that matters is which side has the greater capability of exercising violence on the other. And that side is clearly Israel.
The Nakba may have given Palestinians a stronger hand at the negotiating table. But Palestinians chose Hamas and Hamas chose violence. Their grievances are irrelevant when they commit an act of war.
It is shitty that civilians get caught up in this but I feel it’s a lot as if Nazi germany accused the allies of genocide in WW2. There simply is no moral base for this. And let’s not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So what are saying is that because the allies bombed Dresden, the Germans were actually defending themselves against the Jews?
And you say that you agree with the Nazi’s committing the Holocaust?
Wtf is wrong with you dude
What? What I mean is if you vote for the extremists, don’t be suprised pickachu face if your male population is decimated and your capital looks like Berlin 1945 afterwards.
I didn’t vote for Trump, but I should be killed because he got into power anyways? That’s fucked up, especially since Hamas was financially supported by israel
If Trumps insanity escalates too much and you fail to distance yourself sufficiently then at one point thats the only way.
Think about it from the other side: was it wrong to accept collateral damage to german civilians in order to stop the Nazis? How is this different?
First, how is it different?
That was a traditional war, with opposing armies facing each other in combat. Palestine cannot have an army due to the oslo accords.
The majority of the people killed in WWII Germany were the victims of the Holocaust, then the German soldiers, not civilians. Here, the vast majority killed are civilians, not the Hamas combatants.
The goal of the Allies was to end the war. The goal of israel is revenge and (depending on which israeli you ask) the elimination of the state is Palestine.
Second, no I don’t think that the German civilian deaths were fine. Just like I don’t agree with dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese civilian towns. And WWII is infamous for being brutal, inhumane, and a repulsive example of human hatred and violence.
So to summarize, killing innocent people is bad. The people dying don’t deserve to die and don’t have to die. israel should stop.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians, they are getting caught up because Hamas uses human shield tactics that maximize civilian deaths. Israel also is not in to destroy palestine or for revenge, they are in for destroying Hamas. And when dealing with extremists you have to go for full surrender, always was like this thoughout history and it’s also true here. War has changed that’s true and Israel is making use of that to minimize civilian deaths, did you note how they are using guided bombs instead if carpet bombing for instance? Still it’s impossible to save every innocent civilian and it is an infeasible standard for a war even in this day and age.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians
Well that’s just objectively wrong.
Israel dropped more bombs to Gaza in a week than the US did in Afghanistan… in a year.
But you’ll criticise the sources so let’s go with the UN (although IDF trolls will still complain that UN is somehow controlled by Hamas or smth equally silly)
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15564.doc.htm
As Israel’s Aerial Bombardments Intensify, ‘There Is No Safe Place in Gaza’, Humanitarian Affairs Chief Warns Security Council
Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people
GENEVA (16 November 2023) – Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’ in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
At least 95 civilians – nearly half of them children – killed in four unlawful strikes in Rafah
Attacks took place in southern governorate supposed to be “safe”
All four strikes are likely direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects and must be investigated as war crimes
Tldr gtf on out of here, idf troll
Hamas hasn’t held an election since 2006. In that election, 45% of the population voted for Hamas, 42% voted for the Fatah, and the remaining 13% voted for smaller parties. Half of Gaza is under 18 and 65% percent of the population is younger than the 25 years old.
So what you’re saying is that Gazans should expect to be murdered because, in an election held when the majority of them were too young to vote and half of them weren’t even alive, a minority of people voted for extremists. Great point dude.
It’s not like public opinion has changed much in palestine, check the other comments for sources.
But ultimately I believe that people are responsible for their government. If you are born in gaza, realize that Hamas is shit but don’t try to bring change through protests or organizing opposition and also don’t leave but stay, go on with your live and pay your taxes to Hamas etc. then you’re part of the problem. Otherwise what is left? Hamas being untouchable due to the people acting as human shields? In my book that’s way worse.
Totally dude, totally. If I were a child growing up in Gaza, and I lived in poverty, with poor access to food and medicine because of Israeli blockades, while thousands of my countrymen where killed or displaced by Israeli air raids or gunned down by the IDF for protesting…well, obviously I would want to overthrow Hamas. I would definitely hate the group fighting the country makes my life hell, and I would definitely try get Hamas out of power.
Like you said, people are responsible for their government, and the people of Gaza (who are, again, HALF CHILDREN) are responsible for removing these extremists from power, even though they don’t hold elections. Another great take dude.
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity? And you think after what happened Israel should just accept Hamas at their border and wait it out for the next attack?
Sucks for the kids but it’s also pretty bad for the Israeli children that are still in captivity btw. Should Israel just give up on them?
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity?
Holy shit the Israeli propaganda is strong.
After more than a month of the Israeli government’s unlawful blockade of Gaza, which has included catastrophic cuts to water, fuel, and electricity, as well as very limited deliveries of food, water, and medical supplies, the lack of clean water is resulting in “grave concerns” by public health experts of an imminent infectious disease outbreak in Gaza, including waterborne illnesses like cholera and typhoid.
Israel is genociding Palestinians. This is not some controversial take. It’s the stance of the UN and the majority of the international community, supported by mountains of evidence.
Yet still pigs like you dare write garbage comments like that
A) No, I mean the blockades that have been going on since 2007. They limit necessary supplies to Gaza and are the reason it has been called an, “open-air prison.” B) Israel is the occupying force in Gaza and therefore has a legal obligation to supply Gaza with water and power under the Oslo Accords. C) Israel has been failing in that obligation, because for years 97% of the drinking water has been below the minimum safety standards for human consumption.
Anyway, again, really great points, really showing your knowledge of the conflict here.
Great job blaming THE LITERAL VICTEMS OF GENOCIDE FOR THEIR GENOCIDE,
So the palestinians are being victimized both by Hamas and Israel and they have no control of their live whatsoever? If this is your take then why do they choose to stay and why do they choose to bring kids into an environment like this?
No, my stance is that Isn’treal is comitting a gennocide aganst palistine. Hamas is not victimising anyone here, they are in effect one of the organizations the opressed are using to fight back.
As for why they “chose to stay” where do they have to go, for the VAST majority not only is palistine the only place they have citizenship to, its also their home, and most people do not take kindly to an invador trying to take it, or to wipe you and your culture out.
As for why have children, because 1) why aid the genocide and 2) they are still humans doing human things, they still want families, they still have hope for a future, when things get bad we dont just stop having offspring.
And let’s not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So was Putin…
Same story, ultimately russians are responsible for Putin.
Yes but apart from the usual cynicism you can’t know how bad a politician will be. Putin and Hamas have not had real democratic elections for a long time now. Longer than the expected term length. Are civilians really responsible for this? Would you risk your life and that of your family to revolt against dictators? Because that’s what you’re asking people to do.
On the topic of Hama’ rise to power though, who created the circumstances for Palestinians to make Hamas a good option?
If you don’t want to risk your life at the very least you can stop contributing and leave. And personally that would also have been my choice.
Palestinians had plenty of options and a shit ton of development aid and charity money to improve their place. Hamas was far from their only option.
Yes they have it so easy /s
Half the population wasn’t yet born the last time elections were held.
Still they don’t do anything to bring change.
8000-9000 dead combatants, 20,000 civilians. Hamas isn’t even doing a good job of using human shields. One of the Lord’s was before parliament yesterday putting the perspective of that ratio out there. Kudos to Israel for their hard work in protecting civilians in the Urban warfare they’re engaged in was essentially the summary. 2:1 is apparently much better than the 6:1 typical of situations like this. Still too many people dying. The rockets need to stop ASAP.
Where does your 8000 number come from? So far we have not seen any credible claims of how many Combatants were killed.
We only know that 2/3 people killed by israel are women and children. Which means the civilian casualty ratio is likely far higher.
By the way the civilian casualty ratio on Oct7 was 2:1, even including all the civilians killed by the IDF. Do you praise Hamas?
Same place the 27000 comes from. Intelligence reporting from the region.
The 2/3rds women and children…how many of those children were fighters? You’ve gotta be really fucking stupid to accept that the under 18 crowd there isn’t taking up arms, we’ve got hours of footage direct from Hamas and UNRWA proving otherwise.
That you’re conflating the attack that started this war with the response, that you’re comparing reservists pulled from their beds and taken hostage to the Palestinians using 5 year olds as human shields really does show your ignorance and bias here. If you think the rules of engagement should be those of 10/7, then so be it. Thankfully Israel holds itself to a higher standard than the likes of Hamas and yourself.
When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 (Amnesty link) is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group.
The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too.
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Amnesty on Hamas War Crimes 2023
Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.
While we’re on the subject, let’s look at how the IDF uses Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
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there has been no evidence outside os Isn’treal backed souces saying the use human shields
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There has been no evidence of human sheilds outside of US and Isn’treal media. This is not “Iranian propoganda” Dispite your wishful thinking
Now answer my damn question why is the Isn’treal offense Force, attacking farms, schools hostpitals, water treatment plants, and areas they promised would be safe zones.
Why is Isn’treal banning food, water, desalinization and medicine entering.
why is Isn’treal bombing hospitals and schools. Why are they preventing food water and medicine from entering , why are they destroying water processing plants cemetaries farms and orchards.
When someone asks for a source, and then OP’s reply does not have a link in it, I ignore everything OP says.
Do you have a source for those numbers?
From the AJ live tracker you can get that in Gaza 28,775 people have been killed, including more than: 12,300 children, and 8,400 women. 68,552 have been injured, including at least: 8,663 children and 6,327 women. With more than 7000 still missing. He’s either assuming all the Men killed, ~8,075 are Hamas or that some of the 12,300 children killed were Hamas.
Instead of analyzing why violent resistance to apartheid has been happening since like 1988 and advocating for an end to the occupation, it seems he’d rather justify these deaths.
You’re using Al Jazeera as your verified source? The same Media operation that’s literally paid for by the same benefactor as Hamas? No bias there LMFAO.
Technically the Gaza Health Ministry, for good reason. And no lol, I don’t exclusively use any news source. I always look for independent verification.
“Everyone uses the figures from the Gaza Health Ministry because those are generally proven to be reliable,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. “In the times in which we have done our own verification of numbers for particular strikes, I’m not aware of any time which there’s been some major discrepancy.” -WaPo
Bias and credibility are two different things. Framing deaths as being killed by Israeli forces compared to simply dying has a difference of bias. On-the-ground reporting with independent verification compared to unsubstantiated claims is a difference of credibility
Technically… they’re The same thing. They serve the same Master.
“We would like to extend congratulations to Israel for only grinding up two orphans for every enemy combatant when they could be grinding up six orphans for every enemy combatant”
What a bullshit line of reasoning. I’m not blaming you, to be clear. I’m blaming the unwiped asshole who decided that spinning this into good news was the only positive thing they could say.
This is a weird comment. For months I’ve only heard about the indiscriminate killing and when someone who’s an expert on how these things play out offers context and commentary compared to global events, you don’t accept it.
Offering context does not make the decision to go scorched earth on a small, densely packed, and functionally trapped population any better.
Israel can stop whenever they want, and it will still take a decade at this point for whoever is left to rebuild. Just because they’re “doing better than most” at slaughtering civilians doesn’t mean it isn’t abhorrent.
It feels a lot like the US congratulating themselves for ushering in democracy to a functionally destroyed Iraq.
It doesn’t make what better? No one’s excusing the loss of life, they’re putting it into context by demonstrating that Israel is clearly not indiscriminately bombing the place.
Israel cannot stop, Hamas has made that exceptionally clear with their repeatedly saying they will continue to massacre the country and 10/7 was a rehearsal. No country would let that existential threat just sit on it’s border firing thousands of rockets at it. That’s just an outrageous claim to make, they can’t stop until Hamas is gone. No country on this planet would.
So the UN is calling for a ceasefire that the US keeps vetoing for… No reason?
Besides the Oct 7th invasion, what damage has Hamas done to Israel? The rockets that get shot from Gaza into Israel, from what I understand, unilaterally get shot down.
Netanyahu said just yesterday that he intends on thwarting any attempt to a demilitarized Palestine, which is pretty much the only compromise short of full invasion and control. Israel has essentially announced its intention to wipe out Hamas, which isn’t itself a bad thing, except that they are dislocating 1m+ people in the process into other countries that don’t want them, and killing people who don’t or can’t move.
Israel won’t cooperate with probes into the way their military handles civilian encounters, so we’re just supposed to believe them when they say “it’s fine” when videos arise of them outright executing civilians?
The US vetoed it because it lacked the turnover of hostages from what I read. Seems like a great reason to shoot it down.
There are entire towns vacated because of rocket fire. There’s been medical centers hit by fire South of Tel Aviv. Israel invested its money into defending its people, Hamas used its money to build tunnels civilians aren’t allowed into and bombs… you’re pretty much saying not enough Israelis are dying so the bombing doesn’t matter. That’s pretty fucked up but sure. One side cares about their people, the other openly states it doesn’t.
Netanyahu is a criminal, no argument there but he’s entirely correct in saying Israel will have full control over the strip when this is done. That’s the only option for Israeli safety. From there it should be transferred to a technocratic government hosted by the Arab states that have established ties with Israel, UAE and Saudi should lead that effort but that’ll come after the current administration is replaced. Based on the people protesting, that’s ASAP but not until Hamas is done.
Given the clear bias against Israel by the UN, the number of resolutions issued for human rights is comical, would you accept a probe? Iran sits on the human rights commission. Israel has been rung up for it’s treatment of women LoL. That’s a kangaroo court if there’s ever been one. It’s disappointing there isn’t a reasonable body to investigate though, UNRWA needs to be dismantled and I’m quite sure there’s monsters in the IDF that need to be locked up too. I’m hopeful their judiciary will hold their people to account, they’ve done it previously but I don’t think it’ll be enough. That’s a sad reality of war. Just like the people pulling the strings in Doha and Tehran won’t be held to account, there’s going to be Israelis who aren’t either.
There’s no good guy in this conflict. No matter which way you look at it, this is not a defensive action by Israel.
you’re pretty much saying not enough Israelis are dying so the bombing doesn’t matter
What you’re saying is that provisional and hypothetical safety of civilians that aren’t evacuated is reason enough to stage an invasion with a blood price several hundred times higher.
Among other things, the biggest difference here is that Israeli civilians can be evacuated. Palestinians have nowhere to go. They are dying in their homes or dying at the border where they have nowhere to go.
the number of resolutions issued for human rights is comical
So you’re insinuating that the number of human rights violations that Israel can be held liable for should be limited by some artificial volume considered “palatable” to some authority? Do you realize how ridiculous that is? If Israel is committing a comical number of human rights violations, they need to answer to a comical number of charges.
No the US Vetoed it because they are complicet in the Genocide, if you hear the president ever speak about Isn’treal it is clear that he will do everything in his power to suport them no matter what they do.
Also there is no bias aganst Isn’treal, there is a larger number of nations who dislike them because, and I cannot stress this enough, most nations, and all decent people dislike genocide… I am sorry you have to learn you are a bad person this way
why are they bombing hospitals, schools, water facilities, the areas they have told the palitinians are the save zones, buldozing cemetaries, and grenading families of those who request aid in leaving due to disabilities.
Palestinians bombed their own hospitals FFS. IDF is returning fire, the question should be why does Hamas continue to set up their operations amongst civilian infrastructure?
Except all independent reports found both of thouse statments to be untrue, only Isn’treal makes those claims, they also claim that palistinians are animals, odd that they woud use such genocidal language…
Even IDF skewed exaggeratd false numbers admited they kill 70% kids and women to 30% Men aka Hamas. Where did you get that 2:1 from? Do you feel better to make up things just to not face the reality that Israel is an aparthied state and genocidal terrorists who kill babies in incubators, cripple and amputate kids, bomb and shoot women little kids hiding in their houses and cars?
The ratio was presented by a Lord in Parliament yesterday. Didn’t catch his name, he was some sort of historian. I’m sure you can find it in the record, it was in session. The absurdity of calling Israel an apartheid state when Arabs sit in Parliament, on the Courts and in political office, while the street signs are Arabic and Hebrew is utterly absurd. Do you know any Israeli Arabs? They’ve been among the loudest supporters of Zionism out there since October. That statement alone identifies you as an absolute joke.
I hate to break it to you but your 2:1 ratio, is off by a factor of 10. Israel being a genocidal aparthied state ruling by IJC, Unicef, UN and many. Also guess who are the loudest supporters for China “unification” with Taiwan? Yes Taiwanise people working for the CCP. Same for Russia and Ukraine, and 99 other examples around the word. Finally, the only joke here is calling Israel a democracy because it’s actually objectively 100 times better to live under the worst dictatorships and murderous oppressive corrupt governments of the middle east than to a palestinians living in Israel
And some of the loudest detractors of the apartheid state of israel are jewish
Two Jews three opinions is a phrase that goes back to before Islam had been conceived. It’s hardly surprising that there are Jews speaking out against themselves. What’s more surprising is the overwhelming support for the state of Israel by the Palestinian Israeli population. I suppose they of all people understand how good they have it in Israel.
Interesting that you say “jews speaking out against themselves”
Those Jewish people about are speaking out against israel. The state of israel and Judaism are not the same thing, as much as zionists will try to convince you otherwise. Speaking against israel is not speaking against judaism or Jewish people as a whole.
And yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Palestinians living in israel that are loudly declaring support for israel. They don’t want to be hurt or killed, so they say what they think will keep them safe.
Although I couldn’t find much info about that, do you have any source or more info?
The safety of Jews is absolutely directly tied to the existence of Israel, the state of Israel is directly linked to Judaism which is why Jews daily prayer starts with a call to Israel. It’s why all Jewish holidays are based on the agricultural cycles of Israel. An anti Zionist Jew is absolutely working against their own interests.
That you think Arabs in Israel don’t have the ability to speak out against the government demonstrates your ignorance here, they’re in the streets by the thousands protesting weekly.
Muhammed zoabi is a good follow if you’re interested in Arabs who support Israel while being critical of their government and policies. He is great at breaking down complex concepts although he’s a bit out there at times.
92% of Palestinians support hamas, they spit on the Israeli children as they were dragged off to be raped and murdered. Both sides are pure evil, supporting either side is smooth brain move. Fuck Israel, fuck palestine.
why would you create a false equivelence between the opressed and the opressors, the genocided and the genocidal, Palistine has a right to stand up and stop the Genocide. This is not some topic you can sit of the fence for, this is not some “both sides are bad” move, there is a genocide going on, and your choices are to oppose the genocide or not to oppose a genocide, that is it, its really simple
I appose the genocide of Palestinians, but also apposed the genocide of Israelis.
Again, you are incapable of understanding more than good vs evil, and you must pick a side.
It is not simple, it is incredibly ignorant and delusional that you would call this simple.
There is no genocide of the people of Isn’treal, that juat isnt a think thats happening
Ah, checked out your comment history, pro china, pro russia troll that baits people into strawman arguments.
No thanks
Pro PRC, yes, Pro Russia, I would not say that, in the geopolitical sense they are preferable to NATO, troll, I would not classify myself as troll but to each their own, and most of the time, I am not the one doing the baiting nor the straw maning. That being said, Thank you for looking at you comment history, and felt the need to call my standing up fpr a people under genocide trolling, I feel so special now
Israel is raping women and sexually violating girls according to the UN.
Hamas does not do those things. Please refrain from spreading fake news.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html
And why are you mentioning Israel? I very clearly said fuck Israel. You clearly only have the capacity to see everything as good vs evil, so one side must be good.
Why are you linking a fake made up article that has been fully debunked for its lies?
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/
Why are you linking a borderline extremist news site that censors its writers and fabricates information? https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-intercept/
And the new york times is considered one of the most factual news sources. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-times/
MBFC endorses UNWatch as credible.
UNWatch screams that the UN is Hamas.
Why would you use that garbage Zionist MBFC site?
Are you saying that the UN is Hamas?
Removed by mod
Strange because I read:
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
Being a Zionist must be very difficult when you deny reality.
