Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy. The US has a 2 party FPTP system, not proportional representation. Unlike multi-party parliamentary systems, we usually have to vote for a compromise, not our top choice. If you don’t vote, you don’t “send a message”, you simply forfeit your political power. If Republicans win, and keep winning, then that’s a signal for Democrats to shift right, to try to win back the median voter.
I hate the argumentative strategy of criticizing candidates for being political “losers”. Rightwingers do that all the time. By that logic, progressives also had “loser candidates”, since many fail in the primaries. I personally don’t think Sanders, for example, was a “loser”, even if he lost in the primary.
Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy.
Or we do? “We lose regardless. Let’s stay home.”
I’m getting really sick of this inversion of responsibility. Moderates dominate the primaries and elect someone who doesn’t resonate with the leftists and progressives but aren’t responsible for how that candidate does in the general? They control the outcome in the primaries but aren’t responsible for what happens in the general? That makes no sense.
As the majority moderates must take the lions share of the responsibility. Where is that happening?
We might as well skip all the pomp and circumstance and just assign the votes automatically based on party registration. That’s how it’s done currently with the added facade of having a “choice.”
The Overton window continues to shift to the right regardless of who wins elections because there are power people benefiting from it and it’s incredibly easy to spread propaganda to the masses with tv/radio/internet.
What are you even talking about with your first paragraph? The result of elections aren’t predictable. In fact, they’re less predictable than ever. And what’s with “choice” in quotes: are you an election truther? That’s more of a right wing conspiracy.
That’s a pathetic cowardly take on the Overton window. What even is your point? “Let’s give up because nothing matters”? Fuck that. I’m fighting.
It’s also empirically untrue: I don’t know how you haven’t noticed that the US is going through the biggest labor movement in a generation. In the last 3 years, Dems have passed one of the most progressive agendas in a generation.
I’m talking about the fact that we keep getting Clinton’s and Bidens as our nominees because that’s what the party leadership wants. They choose who gets the backing, who gets the funding, who gets the airtime, and who gets to debate. The primaries are little more than a sham to give us the illusion of choice because this private organization already picked their winner. You claim elections are less predictable than ever, yet there’s a 100% chance it’s going to be one of two people, either the D or R, who’s going to win, both backed by the same wealthy donors to do their bidding. That’s the illusion of choice.
Your fighting, eh? Well, how’s the fight coming? At what point do you consider the fight won? Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership? Good luck accomplishing that when, as I stated above, there are only two choice on the ballot and one of them is Republican. That kind of solidifies their place in government as they’re the only alternative for people to vote for. That ensures we’ll keep having people like Trump waiting in the wings and taking office every time a Clinton-like candidate runs against them. This also ensures that Democratic candidates don’t actually have to do jack shit for the country as they’re going to get your vote anyway. This is why I stated that elections might as well be automatic based on party registration and why it’s an illusion of choice. You’re not fighting by voting D or R. You’re just perpetuating the status quo.
If you think Biden’s candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries. Here’s the simple obvious explanation: Biden never lost his nationwide polling lead, not once, during the whole race. Are the polls part of the conspiracy too?
The craziest thing about your conspiracy theory is that it’s flatly contradicted by Trump, who was clearly NOT the establishment choice in 2016. Establishment politicians and media pushed Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, John Kasich, anyone but Trump. They all criticized or downplayed Trump non-stop (for good reason)… and yet he won.
Well, how’s the fight coming?
I’m living through one of the biggest shifts left in politics in a generation. The left/center-left coalition has been surprisingly dominant. Mid-terms, special elections, etc. We keep winning. It’s not perfect, but it’s the right direction. But we need to keep winning elections for a long time for durable change.
At what point do you consider the fight won?
Never. Politics is a continual process, not a destination. If we get complacent, progress dies.
Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership?
No. That’s not even the point. Republicans used to be the progressive party (that’s why they use the color red). Parties don’t matter as much as ideas. The point isn’t for “my team” to win. If Republicans continue losing for a decade, then they will be forced to shift left, just as Dems shifted right after Reagan with Clinton.
If you think Biden’s candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries.
I feel like you’re asleep now. Even as people sweat the possibility of Biden losing they are claiming Biden had the best chance of anyone running in the primaries to defeat Trump in the general. Let’s dissect that claim for a moment.
That would mean:
There are people who would either vote for Trump, 3rd party or not vote at all in the general election if Biden had not won the primaries.
That population of people must exceed the number of leftists and progressives staying home or voting 3rd party because Biden won the primaries.
Furthermore, this message isn’t being delivered as a political reality backed up by numbers and proof, but rather a promise by moderates. If leftists or progressives did manage to get a candidate through the primaries moderates would abandon all that “vote blue not matter who” stuff immediately and outright fight them in the general election to prove a point.
Apathy, rebellion and anger are rational responses to this experience.
You’re changing the subject. My claim was about 2020, not 2024. This year, yes, Biden’s candidacy is inevitable. It is almost unheard of to challenge an incumbent president, and Democrats want to avoid an intra-party fight. When Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was a disaster that damaged the party for a long time.
I agree with you that Biden is a weak candidate and there are better candidates. But you made the extreme claim that elections don’t matter, that we have no choice, that shadowy elites choose all the candidates, and other silly conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories don’t become justified just because you’re apathetic and angry. I’m not sure how you think you’re being rebellious. When you don’t vote, that’s not rebellion. No one cares. You don’t matter, politically.
I was talking about the 2020 primaries as well. Even in retrospect plenty of people still say out of all candidates in the 2020 primaries Biden was the best chance of beating Trump. Then they turn around and try to figure out why so many leftists and progressives are becoming apathetic, angry or voting 3rd party.
You’re shaming progressives for staying home, but you aren’t casting judgement at the people who voted for a loser candidate in the primaries.
Yes, progressives who stay at home for the general election do not understand US democracy. The US has a 2 party FPTP system, not proportional representation. Unlike multi-party parliamentary systems, we usually have to vote for a compromise, not our top choice. If you don’t vote, you don’t “send a message”, you simply forfeit your political power. If Republicans win, and keep winning, then that’s a signal for Democrats to shift right, to try to win back the median voter.
I hate the argumentative strategy of criticizing candidates for being political “losers”. Rightwingers do that all the time. By that logic, progressives also had “loser candidates”, since many fail in the primaries. I personally don’t think Sanders, for example, was a “loser”, even if he lost in the primary.
Or we do? “We lose regardless. Let’s stay home.”
I’m getting really sick of this inversion of responsibility. Moderates dominate the primaries and elect someone who doesn’t resonate with the leftists and progressives but aren’t responsible for how that candidate does in the general? They control the outcome in the primaries but aren’t responsible for what happens in the general? That makes no sense.
As the majority moderates must take the lions share of the responsibility. Where is that happening?
right
We might as well skip all the pomp and circumstance and just assign the votes automatically based on party registration. That’s how it’s done currently with the added facade of having a “choice.”
The Overton window continues to shift to the right regardless of who wins elections because there are power people benefiting from it and it’s incredibly easy to spread propaganda to the masses with tv/radio/internet.
What are you even talking about with your first paragraph? The result of elections aren’t predictable. In fact, they’re less predictable than ever. And what’s with “choice” in quotes: are you an election truther? That’s more of a right wing conspiracy.
That’s a pathetic cowardly take on the Overton window. What even is your point? “Let’s give up because nothing matters”? Fuck that. I’m fighting.
It’s also empirically untrue: I don’t know how you haven’t noticed that the US is going through the biggest labor movement in a generation. In the last 3 years, Dems have passed one of the most progressive agendas in a generation.
I’m talking about the fact that we keep getting Clinton’s and Bidens as our nominees because that’s what the party leadership wants. They choose who gets the backing, who gets the funding, who gets the airtime, and who gets to debate. The primaries are little more than a sham to give us the illusion of choice because this private organization already picked their winner. You claim elections are less predictable than ever, yet there’s a 100% chance it’s going to be one of two people, either the D or R, who’s going to win, both backed by the same wealthy donors to do their bidding. That’s the illusion of choice.
Your fighting, eh? Well, how’s the fight coming? At what point do you consider the fight won? Do you envision some point in the future where Republicans no longer hold office and the country is some utopia of pure Democratic leadership? Good luck accomplishing that when, as I stated above, there are only two choice on the ballot and one of them is Republican. That kind of solidifies their place in government as they’re the only alternative for people to vote for. That ensures we’ll keep having people like Trump waiting in the wings and taking office every time a Clinton-like candidate runs against them. This also ensures that Democratic candidates don’t actually have to do jack shit for the country as they’re going to get your vote anyway. This is why I stated that elections might as well be automatic based on party registration and why it’s an illusion of choice. You’re not fighting by voting D or R. You’re just perpetuating the status quo.
If you think Biden’s candidacy was inevitable, you were asleep during the primaries. Here’s the simple obvious explanation: Biden never lost his nationwide polling lead, not once, during the whole race. Are the polls part of the conspiracy too?
The craziest thing about your conspiracy theory is that it’s flatly contradicted by Trump, who was clearly NOT the establishment choice in 2016. Establishment politicians and media pushed Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, John Kasich, anyone but Trump. They all criticized or downplayed Trump non-stop (for good reason)… and yet he won.
I’m living through one of the biggest shifts left in politics in a generation. The left/center-left coalition has been surprisingly dominant. Mid-terms, special elections, etc. We keep winning. It’s not perfect, but it’s the right direction. But we need to keep winning elections for a long time for durable change.
Never. Politics is a continual process, not a destination. If we get complacent, progress dies.
No. That’s not even the point. Republicans used to be the progressive party (that’s why they use the color red). Parties don’t matter as much as ideas. The point isn’t for “my team” to win. If Republicans continue losing for a decade, then they will be forced to shift left, just as Dems shifted right after Reagan with Clinton.
I feel like you’re asleep now. Even as people sweat the possibility of Biden losing they are claiming Biden had the best chance of anyone running in the primaries to defeat Trump in the general. Let’s dissect that claim for a moment.
That would mean:
Furthermore, this message isn’t being delivered as a political reality backed up by numbers and proof, but rather a promise by moderates. If leftists or progressives did manage to get a candidate through the primaries moderates would abandon all that “vote blue not matter who” stuff immediately and outright fight them in the general election to prove a point.
Apathy, rebellion and anger are rational responses to this experience.
You’re changing the subject. My claim was about 2020, not 2024. This year, yes, Biden’s candidacy is inevitable. It is almost unheard of to challenge an incumbent president, and Democrats want to avoid an intra-party fight. When Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was a disaster that damaged the party for a long time.
I agree with you that Biden is a weak candidate and there are better candidates. But you made the extreme claim that elections don’t matter, that we have no choice, that shadowy elites choose all the candidates, and other silly conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories don’t become justified just because you’re apathetic and angry. I’m not sure how you think you’re being rebellious. When you don’t vote, that’s not rebellion. No one cares. You don’t matter, politically.
I was talking about the 2020 primaries as well. Even in retrospect plenty of people still say out of all candidates in the 2020 primaries Biden was the best chance of beating Trump. Then they turn around and try to figure out why so many leftists and progressives are becoming apathetic, angry or voting 3rd party.