- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Most Canadians who plan on voting for the Liberal party are more motivated to stop the Conservatives from winning the election rather than endorsing the party’s vision and leader, according to a new poll released on Monday.
You must log in or # to comment.
And this is why the LPC will never pass electoral reform (except for ranked ballot, because they’re more likely to be everyone’s second choice) because under full PR they’d never, ever, get another majority government despite having tepid support among the voting population. For the record, the CPC wouldn’t even support ranked ballots as they’re almost never the second choice of anyone (because their policies–when they can be bothered to articulate them–are unpopular, believe it or not)
For the record, no Canadian political party has had >50% of the popular vote in half a century, and even before then it was exceedingly rare. FPtP allows the LPC or CPC to sneak a majority in, anyways.
This is also why the one thing Trudeau could do to make me respect him would be say, “I’m stepping down as leader. My last act as PM is to roll out legitimate proportional representation.”
The Liberals are probably not going to win the next election no matter what; but legitimate reform would mean an end to autocratic majorities.
He’d face a full caucus revolt if he tried. I’d expect the Liberals would prefer to lose a vote of confidence than implement PR.
Honestly, I think they’d also rather lose than implement anything remotely economically progressive.
Also changing a majority from 34% to 51%
Instead they should vote for the NDP. The only party that truly cares about the biddle class.
ABC. Anything but conservative. FPTP is winner takes all, so vote for Liberal or NDP depending on who’s more likely to get in in your area. And pray to whatever force may be that someone puts in a sensible voting system at some point.
Remember when Trudeau promised election reform when he was elected the first time?
Pepperidge Farms remembers.
I remember every election when I vote NDP.
We got dental and in theory pharma with this minority government. Maybe the NDP can twist their arm into voting reforms next time if we get another?
I remember seeing an analysis of FPTP and in about 70% of the elections since the 60s it favoured the Liberals against NDP and PC on a riding by riding and general election basis. It’ll be a cold day in hell before they change anything.
Which is disgusting! Their job is supposed to be about doing what is best for the people who live here, not whatever best serves the interests of their party. If there were a system that was good for the people while eliminating the concept of parties, every party should be glad to do the work of implementing it.
Or just vote NDP regardless so that we can stop praying.
If voting NDP had any more effect than pissing in the wind in my area I would. Unfortunately, they rarely get a significant percentage of the vote and when they do we go conservative. So it’s either hold my nose and vote lib or help a conservative who doesn’t even live in the city get in.
If polling changes to show the NDP beating the libs here I’m 100% changing my vote. Until then, the system sucks so sometimes voting sucks.
As a former resident who lived in (ugh) ol’ Stevie Harper’s riding, I totally sympathize. However, I took great pleasure in being the green blip in an otherwise homogeneous blue sea. I hope I made them insecure or at least forced them to have to hire an extra analyst…just that one little canker sore in his otherwise perfect, sterile version of Canada.
Well, because the liberals didn’t reform elections as they promised, we can’t do that.
You can, in fact, vote for NDP.
Yeah… how convenient.
sigh…
I really feel privileged to live in an area that’s NDP vs LPC where I can merrily vote against the Liberals.
Local riding 🔤 it is. 👍
In any case it’s the local riding election that matters. Some folks vote as if our system is proportional with completely counterproductive results.
God it must be so nice not having a two-party system.
Except it pretty much is a two party system with extra steps.
You mean with minority governments.
Minority governments have enacted everything that makes Canada good.
This could just be a feature of getting good things when we give the NDP a larger share of power than usual, though. The Liberals didn’t want universal healthcare, it was a concession given to the NDP because they had to. But it’s not like a majority NDP situation at the time wouldn’t have passed it.
Much the same as dental care today. What exactly are the Liberals bringing to the table other than acting as gatekeepers making sure the system isn’t as expansive as it could be?
I would be fine with minority governments for the foreseeable future.
As you said, better policy tends to result when there needs to be some level of cross-party cooperation in order to get anything done.
That’s part of the problem though. We can ignore our problems compared to the glaring ones next door.
Why are minority gouvernements a problem? That’s when parties have to make compromises with the NDP and have no choice but to vote on stuff that finally benefit the middle class.
I replied to the wrong comment. I meant to reply to someone saying at least we’re better than America.
I think minority governments are a big pro of our system.
Hahahaha ok no problem.
Well, just know that as bad as it is, you can always look south for a worse solution.
The party might, but its leader doesn’t. He’s a gilded spoon rich brat.
They all are. I’ll still vote NDP.
That the real source of the problem though, isn’t it?
The lack of citizen participation in our democracy. That’s one thing I admire about the system in the US and France. Anybody can represent themselves and get elected. I feel in Canada it’s a lot more complicated.
I don’t know much about the political landscape in France, but in the US you have to be wealthy to achieve political office above a certain level. When’s the last time a poor person became their President?
Most politicians in Canada are middle class, with the exception of some “star candidates” from the business and banking sectors who bring in lots of rich-friend donor money for the party.
The Liberals and Conservatives love that people believe this country can’t survive another election cycle of the other.
We’ll survive another 4 years of the Liberals or Conservatives. What this country can’t survive is alternating between two bad parties for another few decades.
All our parties are bad and that’s what sucks.
What are ya talking aboot? The sale of CN Rail, Experemental Lakes, PEARL, Ontario Power Generation were the best decisions ever! OH WAIT CANT FORGET THE PURCHASE OF THE KINDER MORGHAN PIPELINE /s
Vote NDP if you don’t want Cons to win, if voting Libs worked then this “threat” wouldn’t exist
As much as I hate to admit it, voting for anything other than the liberals right now will be a win for the cons. Popular support for the NDP hasn’t shifted from 20% support since 2021, meanwhile the cons are up to ~41% and the libs are down to ~27%.
Not true! Trudeau got rid of the first past the post syst… oh wait.
They are so stupid, they basically dug their own grave by not getting rid of FPTP.
If I vote Liberal I’d guarantee a conservative win in my riding…
How many ridings is this true for in the entire country? I’ll be voting liberal, and will be completely unsurprised if the conservatives get in where I live. But it will indicate something in the polls if/when more people than ever vote against them, which will increase the odds of Poilievre getting ousted if they lose.
How many ridings is this true for in the entire country?
About the same number as there are ridings in Alberta and Saskatchewan?
Ugh this is what my wife told me she was planning yesterday.
Pollievre is so fucking nutty were both worried about the country of he wins.
I cannot stress enough how fucking stupid this guy is, hell take any idea that’s popular at the time and run with it, like how he wanted to make Canada the crypto capital and neuter our central bank.
It’s pretty fucking clear if we’d done that in 2021 we’d be fucked today. He’s still peddling Bank of Canada and World Economic Forum conspiracy shit too. Yet the “fiscal” conservatives are fine with this?
So we’ve got the status PM quo that’s overstayed his welcome by a full election cycle vs 4chan Millhouse. Great. (Oh, sorry, he took off his glasses now, is he still Millhouse?)
And the NDP are also responsible because they’re sticking with Singh despite him being as uninspiring as Trudeau. They’ve only lost seats since picking him, but hey, why not stay the course… It’s great the NDP got pharmacare rolling but the implementation is asinine.
“This means just nine per cent of the Canadian electorate is passionate about and inspired by the prospect of voting Liberal,” Angus Reid wrote in the report.
What is there to be passionate about? Voting LPC to prevent a CPC government is by this point an established Canadian tradition. 🥹
Ballot reform, for fuck’s sake.
Approval Voting is where you check every name you like. Most votes wins. It’s genuinely that simple, and there’s no good reason what-so-ever it’s not the global default.
Wow. It’s hard to find a voting system I like less than FPTP, but you’ve found it! This only makes sense over STV if we don’t have computers.
STV only makes sense for multi-winner elections. It fundamentally does not pick the best candidate - just the first who can scrape together sufficient support. A person can be literally everyone’s second choice and still lose.
Approval is a straight improvement over FPTP - there is no good reason, at all, to prefer FPTP. It completely eliminates the way similar candidates cannibalize each other’s votes. It minimizes self-defeating efforts to be “strategic” by ranking no-chance buttheads higher, or only giving your preferred frontrunner half a vote.
If you’re gonna do ranked ballots to pick one candidate then use a Condorcet method.
And this type of disagreement on what sort of system to move to is among the reasons the lukewarm effort Trudeau attempted fizzled out pretty much immediately.
Can there be negative votes? So that not voting matters too
Nope.
What you’re looking for is called Score Voting. Approval is just yes-or-meh. It is the simplest form of Score, and yet, it avoids a lot of self-defeating behaviors, has less reported regret than other systems, and somehow matches Condorcet results pretty reliably.
Ennnh, I feel like ranked choice would be better.
Ranked Choice is an objectively mediocre use of ranked ballots. A candidate can be everyone’s second choice, and they’re guaranteed to lose. They’d be eliminated immediately because RCV only counts top votes. You really want a Condorcet method like Ranked Pairs.
Consider the following election:
45% of people vote Alice > Bill > Charles.
35% of people vote Charles > Bill > Alice.
20% of people vote Bill > Charles > Alice.FPTP says Alice wins, despite 55% of people preferring anyone else. Obviously terrible. Right?
RCV eliminates Bill and says Charles wins… despite 65% of people preferring Bill.
Condorcet says Alice v. Bill goes to Bill and Bill v. Charles goes to Bill so Bill wins.
As he should.
The Liberal Party says “System working exactly as intended!”
I’m lucky, in a sense, that I don’t have to make this decision. The only viable candidates in my riding are the Conservatives and the NDP, so I can actually vote my conscience.
Lucky. I can’t remember the last time the federal NDP ran a viable candidate in my riding. The last 3 or 4 have been zero experience filler candidates.
As is tradition. If you lean left, how could you vote for Conservatives?
I think you’re missing the point. These aren’t people who lean left:
Meanwhile, three in five (63 per cent) Liberal supporters said they are more motivated to prevent a Conservative government rather than to support Trudeau and Liberal policies.
It sounds to me like they are fairly middle folks who think the left is closer to the middle than the right is.
I’d call those people left leaning - or at least left leaning compared to wherever the fuck the CPC has decided to go.
wherever the fuck the CPC has decided to go.
Through the ditch and way off into the weeds on the right side of the road.
I’m sure I didn’t miss the point and I still believe anyone who doesn’t vote Conservative is left leaning.
“Left” isn’t really much of an identity definition anyway.
Right is clearly aligned with the greater political body of the small-c conservative movement. Preserve existing power structures, resist social progress, prop up ‘traditional’ values (i.e., the values that match the preferences of your tribe justified by whatever histrionic nonsense you can think of).
The left is really only defined in opposition to the right these days. Liberals, socialists, progressives, Marxists, anarchists, you name it and all the shades in between. The common identity of “the left” is just… not conservative.
Which means I agree with you. Leaning left just means leaning away from right. It doesn’t really tell you what specific policies the person wants, just what policies they reject. And center/middle/“moderate” has no particular meaning in this day and age.
i kinda see where you’re coming from, but i think it’s reversed (and let’s ignore here that left and right are economic terms and we are discussion social politics):
left is progressive - aka change things
right is conservative - aka roll back things
the left has policies to push forward, the right has policies to pull that back in - the right is literally the side of “not progressive”. you can’t be a “not conservative” because they dont have positions of their own
this differs of course to anything but conservative, because there are many flavours of progressive
By that same line of argument, there are myriad ways to be progressive but only a single way to be conservative. Which is really only true theoretically. In practice, most people who identify as conservative actually have very specific policy preferences for how they want their society to evolve. But at least the way the word is used it has an intended meaning like this.
I mean heck, with the right parameters and conditions doing things like rolling back regulations and appealing to traditional values is progressive. For example look at the advocacy of Strong Towns, who in (very) broad strokes are pushing for a return to more traditional urban development patterns in order to help cities return to safer and more financially sustainable models. If you had a mind to do so you might define this as conservative progressivism, which isn’t really a contradiction at all.
Traditionally left and right were not “economic” terms. They were the revolutionaries and the monarchists. And the idea that economic politics as separate from other kinds of politics I kind of reject too.
i think you’re right in a few ways: there are myriad ways people present their conservatism, but i’d just say that’s kind of focusing on issues they care about… progressives have the same thing: some people care about the environment and don’t have much care about trans rights (like they care about it, but it’s not going to change their vote)
being progressive doesn’t mean you support all progress equally, just like being conservative doesn’t mean you support all conservation and (what we would call) regression equally either
i think the thing with progressive vs conservative is how “entrenched” something is… progressives change entrenched systems - “the way society works” kinda stuff, which can absolutely mean rolling back legislation - like don’t ask don’t tell, laws that made sodomy illegal, etc. these are all kind of entrenched societal things that we try to change. conservatism, by contrast tries to keen the entrenched societal things the same
in a well working system, this is actually great! progressives push really hard to change things and conservatives keep the best of the bits that were working - the bits that people actually care about. in reality of course, modern politics doesn’t work like that because it’s all corrupt bullshit
Sounds a lot like us here in the ISA. Dems offer nothing but a reprieve from absolute lunatics. No Left movement survives or really even gets started.
With the NDP coalition that’s not as true in Canada. Between the national dental care plan that’s coming and subsidized childcare, among other things, real left-ish progress is being made. But as usual a) the media isn’t always telling a balanced story, b) government comms are shit, and c) the Liberals keep fucking up in visible, spectacular, and stupid ways, which distracts from genuine victories.
Which, come to think of it, does echo the Biden administration over the last four years…
ISA
Inhospitable States Alliance?
That’s the one!
We have other options. Especially in Québec.
What’s new?
🎶 Same as it ever was 🎵
This is exactly why Trudeau went back on his promise of election reform, and why we will also get stuck with a conservative government if he tries to run again with all the baggage he has.
I think he “went back” because he knows very well that in order to do electoral reforms, he would need to open the constitution and that would be extremely messy, if not the end of Canada.
Every time we even think about changing the constitution, it’s endless national drama.
If the LPC dropped Trudeau tomorrow I’d vote for the LPC.
Since he’s still party leader, I’ll be throwing my vote to anyone else that seems even marginally more competent than Trudeau and his top clowns in the LPC.
Narrow your search by who can
- get elected
- deliver on their platform
- which is positive for Canada
Suddenly you have no options.
My only option right now is to not vote for trudeau.
I would rather we have a minority government where no one current party has serious power than allow the LPC or CPC a majority with their current leadership.
If no one can step up to do the job, then get used to being forced to get along, IMO.
We need a speaker of the house that treats these incompetent malcontents like the children they act out as.
A LPC majority isn’t something to be worried about by the looks of the numbers lately. Only a CPC majority is in the cards and quite likely without strategic ABC vote. Strategic ABC vote could give us LPC minority. If an election were held today those are the only viable possibilities.
I’m not Canadian so this is a genuine question, what has Truduae done to earn such resentment?
He’s been PM during times of hardship. That’s pretty much it. That and Conservatives parroting for the last 5 years that every single thing wrong in this country is directly and individually Trudeau’s fault.
Most things blamed on Trudeau are either international events affecting every country, or stuff that’s actually under the jurisdiction of the (mostly Conservative) provincial governments or municipalities.
He has done some things that are actually worth resenting, but most Canadians criticising Trudeau don’t give a fuck about blackface or corruption scandals, they just want to whine about carbon tax and minorities.
He has (depending on your POV) been involved in a lot of scandals or been hit by a lot of smear campaigns. To name a few (and in the interest of fairness the good faith counter argument I have heard):
- He flew in the Helicopter of politically powerful Imam. This could have been considered quid pro quo and resulted in a 500 dollar fine from out ethics committee. However the Imam and the Trudeau family have been known family friends for a long time, so it is arguably a friendly visit not a work visit.
- He chooses the Governor general, a mostly ceremonial role. He choose the astronaut Julie Payette who was fired/resigned due to workplace harassment and creating a toxic work environment.
- Elbow gate: Trudeau (clearly accidentally) elbowed a female NDP member, the conservatives claimed that this was assault (this was during the height of the #metoo stuff) and that trudeau should step down, the NDP leader sided with the Conservatives and ultimately resigned from this debacle. I include this to mostly illustrate how aggressive the CPC have been at attacking his character.
- Jaspal Atwal is an indo Canadian who tried to assassinate an Indian politician. Trudeau then invited him to an indian diplomatic dinner. Atwal is a prominent business person with familial ties with Trudeau.
- the SNC lavelin affair. SNC lavelin is one of the largest construction companies in Quebec that did some super corrupt stuff, the CEOs went to prison, and the company was slated for to be dissolved. This would cost 1000’s of jobs, particularly in Trudeaus home riding. There is a special piece of legislation called a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) passed by trudeau a few years earlier. This agreement would lessen the penalties on the company itself (not the CEOs) and allow the company to stay open. Trudeau spoke to his Minister of Justice, and allegedly put inappropriate pressure to go the DPA route, after which the minister resigned. Some believe that the minister resigning was a political play for her personal gain, others also argue that the pressure exerted by Trudeau was not wholely inappropriate. The DPA deal never happened.
- We Charity: A federal contract was made with the WE charity fro covid support. Turns out that WE had paid about half a million to Trudeaus wife to do a speech, despite both trudeau and WE signing documents stating they have no financial relationship. This created the appearance of Quid pro quo. Trudeaus finance minister was also found to have undisclosed financial ties which eventually lead to his resignation. Trudeau also prorogued parliament (essentially went on break) part way through the scandals investigation, a move that he heavily criticized the previous government for doing, however the prorogation also made sense to do for reaasons outside the scandal (the early days of the pandemic mainly). Trudeau proponents argue that Trudeau was not directly involved in the decision making and that WE was the only charity that was really a serious option for this program. The final ethics report on the subject found no wrong doing on Trudeaus part and the speech did not represent a conflict of interest, but that the finance minister had broken 3 conflict of interest laws. This finding happened long after the public eye had moved on.
- Brownface. It was uncovered that Trudeau dressed up in brown face on 2 separate occasions in 2001 for Halloween when he was a teacher and at least once in blackface. Francophone culture doesn’t have the same views on blackface as English culture, with minstrel shows being popular as far as 2012.
That’s what Trudeau has done scandal wise, in my experience this is what more conservative folks dislike about him. In my personal opinion there is nothing particularly out of the ordinary here and as someone whose wife is desi I can say the brown community largely seems to not care much about the brownface or Indian political scandals., but of course I only have that one community to look at.
He has some pretty controversial policies as well:
- A campaign promise of his first election was that “this would be the last election with FPTP”. While he raised a bill in Committee, it died there as conservatives didn’t want to change anything and the progressive parties could not agree on a particular system. Trudeau still had the option of ramming it through with his majority, but claimed that it would be damaging to pass it unilaterally without any other parties support. This is the single largest thing I see him get criticized for online, but I don’t see much about it IRL or in mainstream media.
- He made a big deal of appointing a cabinet that was 50% men and women. Some see it as pandering, some see it as misandry.
- The carbon tax implemented is criticized by the right for being too severe and the left for being too soft.
- He spent an awful lot of government money buying out oil pipelines that were held up by protests. Federal police also beat the shit out of those oil protesters.
- I don’t think any politician is beyond criticism over the handling of the pandemic, I don’t want to get into it too much but the raising cost of living and shutdowns do not bode well for the status quo government.
- He called an election in the middle of the pandemic (end of 2022) when he was ahead in the polls he ended up staying in almost the exact same minority government. This is traditionally a very unpopular thing for the government to do (elections are seen as expensive and annoying) and it was doubly so because of the pandemic.
- Trudeau has let in record levels of immigrants and refugees, while this has always been unpopular for right wingers it has become increasingly unpopular among progressives (largely due to the housing crisis, see below).
- Trudeau has been largely ineffectual at dealing with the housing crisis, late to admit there was a problem and getting criticism from both home owners and renters.
- Trudeau made a promise to provide all native communities with safe drinking water. He still has not done so, although he has closed more drinking advisories than were open when he was elected (more opened during the years).
In addition there’s also plenty of verifiably fake news and right wing craziness. Stuff like he’s a pedo who got fired from teaching or anything to do with the anti-covid protests.
I tried to make this fair, but obviously personal bias is unavoidable. I’m an ABC (anything but Conservative) voter who aligns most closely with the green party, probably much more pro-trudeau than most internet takes though. I’ve voted for LPC 3 times and will probably vote green in the next one.
My personal opinion is that while he is slow he is slowly sending things in the right direction so long as the NDP remain a minority. I think most of the negativity comes form the fact he’s been in power a long time and that the world has on the whole gotten worse. I hope he wins the next election because realistically the only other choice is a right wing populist. I don’t think it is possible for him to step down and keep the party in power, I somewhat suspect that the LPC is resigned to losing the next election and using that as a way to change out Trudeau.
He has played to selling out canada to corporate interests at every turn and then uses the facade of ‘pushing for equality’ to shut down any critical discussions in public venues.
Then he shuts down, at the behest of Mr. Buffet, every trucker or rail worker dispute by forcing them back to work and labeling them as ‘right wing extremists’ for the audacity of asking for time off, reasonable pay, and enough workers to insure safe travels (especially in the rail industry).
Additionally, the liberal government has taken to shutting down bank accounts of people that they accuse, whether with evidence or not, of ‘conspiring’ against them. We have an entire set of people that used to be mid to mid high class that have lost access to their homes and bank accounts because they opted to support a rail worker protest or a trucker protest that the media had labeled ‘extremist’. (Canadian news media is obligated to report the version of events supplied to them by the government or be censured and permanently shut down, this was a good thing in the era of the Iraq war as we were able to know about the lack of WMD’s literally years before the US was fully informed, but it is a sword with which the LPC has been stabbing at public criticism and discussion of their continual failures, abuses of power and illegal land sales as well as the use of the RCMP and former US special forces as ‘special enforcers’ for oil interests)
Instead of allowing any discussion on the matter of their abuse of power and complete lack of oversight of both personal (bribes) and government (missing money) funds, we are assaulted with continual ‘us vs them’ narratives to split the populace.
Trudeau is Trump light, but objectively more racist.
If you want a TL;DR video about Canada’s government issues (with sources)
Then he shuts down, at the behest of Mr. Buffet, every trucker or rail worker dispute by forcing them back to work and labeling them as ‘right wing extremists’ for the audacity of asking for time off, reasonable pay, and enough workers to insure safe travels (especially in the rail industry).
To be clear, there has been back to work legislation for railroad workers for decades, in 2022 it was not used. As far as I’m aware it was last used against Canada Post. Though it has been used by the provincial conservative parties quite a few times.
The convoy was not a trucker dispute. After it was over there were tons of trucks left. How many grassroots truckers can afford a month off work and to leave their vehicles? A lot of the trucks were rented or taken without permission from employers. The convoy was denounced by all the trucker and teamster organizations.
They had a mandate to remove the entire government from power and make themselves the government, months after a federal election.
Additionally, the liberal government has taken to shutting down bank accounts of people that they accuse, whether with evidence or not, of ‘conspiring’ against them
Anyone whose accounts were frozen were literally funding crimes. There was a whole year long investigation, no wrongdoing was found on this. It wasn’t “I don’t like these guys”, the convoy was run by fucking terrorists.
Canadian news media is obligated to report the version of events supplied to them by the government or be censured and permanently shut down
Citation needed. I’ve never heard anything about this, so if it’s true please provide evidence.
lol, you sound like a Qanon conspiracist. And it’s Poilièvre who is a Trump light. Come on.
I’ll never vote far right like conservatives, and will not vote PLC if Trudeau is here. I’ll not vote for leftists like NDP too.
Sorry, you saw the literal sources I provided to the wall street warlords that trudeau is selling canada to and your response is “it’s pierres fault”/“you’re a conspiracy theorist”?
Do you have a reading comprehension problem or did you just opt to not click through a single source before you made your comment?
Pierre wasn’t even a name on the CPC ticket during the wetsueten attacks by the RCMP and last I checked it was trudeau’s choice to do black face all 5 times and to dress as a nazi all 3 times he did it.
If you don’t want to vote then don’t vote, but you definitely don’t reserve the right to call anyone a conspiracy theorist when you can’t even be bothered to look at the information provided to you by a wide variety of journalists, first nations and wall street firms that directly corroborate what I’ve said.
Not only did the video linked have an easy run down with video footage of the wetsueten attacks and various deleterious impacts of the oil industry, it included all sources in the description specifically to combat sleazy arguments like the one you’re presenting.
I don’t denied Trudeau is bad and will not vote for him, but I’ll not vote for CPC for sure, they are worst.
You supported truckers in Ottawa?
You lost your credibility when you wrote “Trudeau is Trump light, but objectively more racist.”
