To the Israeli lawmaker I ask:
Gazans? Certainly you mean Hamas, right? RIGHT? The military group that attacked Israel on Oct 7th. Because if you mean really mean “Gazans must be destroyed” then that is the dictionary literal definition of genocide.
edit: for clarity to whom I’m addressing my questions
The Haaretz page seems to be unavailable right now. Here’s the MSN version:
And an archived copy:
The Haaretz page seems to be unavailable right now. Here’s the MSN version:
Apologies if my post wasn’t clear. I wasn’t questioning you personally, but rather the cited lawmaker in the article. I’ll edit my post to make that clear.
No, I just somehow managed to post my reply under your comment when I meant to post it at the top level. I didn’t have any issue with your comment.
They created this extermination camp.
Now they confirm they did it deliberately.
No country should ever support them again.And yet the US govt just said there is no war in Ba Sing… I mean… no genocide in Gaza.
This is an excellent reference. Very cogently used as well I might add. Avatar the Last Airbender was truly ahead of its time, and one of the greatest pieces of children’s media ever made in my humble opinion.
I wouldn’t call it ahead of it’s time, this is just history repeating itself.
It is media that’s consumable by children, but I would absolutely not call it “children’s media”. It is a show that can be - and is - enjoyed in depth by humans of all ages.
Liked it as a kid and really enjoyed a proper watch through as an adult
Yeah, but how will America maintain peace and security without a military base in the Middle East (btw totally not colonialism)? (/s obviously)
Maybe they can use all the other bases they have in the Middle East?
Less bases? ALL of your base are belong to us.
I know you’re being sarcastic but people unironically believe it. So let me just say they can use the largest US base in the Middle East which is in the UAE.
I’d like to remind people that the heritage foundation helped netanyahu to engineer this situation over the course of decades, . Mandatory military service + a lifetime of consistent propaganda is more than most people can overcome
Israel can be better… Netanyahu and his administration? They can fuck all the way off
what’s clear to everyone is bibi and the far right are doing genocide. his popularity is around 4% over there, and the court just said sorry bibi, you still gotta stand trial for theft and corruption. what we call “the far right” is what the ancients called “evil.” it’s all about greed, lies, hatred, killing, blood, cruelty, and so on. nothin good come of it because it’s literally evil. doesn’t matter what the nationality or history of where it’s born. bibi has no more care for jews than he does for palestinians, just like the far right over here doesn’t give a rats ass about the rednecks and fanatics it winds up for its own gain.
But when I post anything anti-genocide - I get banned from Facebook for being anti-Semitic?
Well it’s because you’re not an Israeli lawmaker.
Israel means to assert that to be Jewish is to be genocidal.
Sounds pretty antisemitic of them
Israel also killed Israeli hostages and funneled money to Hamas. The Israeli government and IDF have a history of antisemitism
Israeli lawmaker Moshe Saada from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party said on Tuesday that recent widespread calls to “destroy” the residents of the Gaza Strip affirm that the right-wing was right.
In an interview on pro-Netanyahu Channel 14, Saada said that even “in the kibbutzim they say, ‘destroy them.’ My friends at the prosecutor’s office, who fought with me on political matters, in debates, tell me, ‘Moshe, it is clear that all the Gazans need to be destroyed,’ and these are statements I have never heard.” This proves, he said, that the right-wing was correct just as it was on the Palestinian issue.
…
In November, Far-right Eliyahu said that that dropping a nuclear weapon on the Gaza Strip is “an option.”
Eliyahu, a member of National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir’s Otzma Yehudit party, maintained that “there are no non-combatants in Gaza.” He was then asked, in light of his views, whether a nuclear attack on the Gaza Strip is an option. “That’s one way,” he responded.
Seems pretty clear and unambiguous what he means. This is calling for genocide.
In response, Ben-Gvir said that the Eliyahu was only speaking "metaphorically.
A ridiculous statement.
A metaphorical nuclear weapon, much better.
Does it mean they now admit the Vela incident was them?
Wow. Amazing. How the tables have turned.
Weird how that happens. I mean seriously. It makes no sense how terrible a peoples’ memory can be.
I’m not a person of belief but by their own lore, they have fell in disgrace again, by their own actions.
"You see this shit!? This is why we kicked them out. " --Spain
Realistically I’m not a proponent of genocide or exile against anyone (and no one should be!), but I really do feel like the world would have done Israel a true favor by nipping this Middle Eastern paranoid tribal victimhood thing in the bud back in the 90s or earlier. This is a fine example of how terroristic activity has nothing at all to do with a religious system.
It should have been nipped in the bud in 1947. The UK should have made a point of fighting the Israeli terrorists and setting up a proper post colonial government like they did everywhere else. But this was the desired outcome by people in power at the time. Their last grasp at colonialism and a giant middle finger to the locals who were taking the empire a part bit by bit every year at that point.
“It also confirms for many people in the world the allegation that Israel does intend to commit genocide,” he added.
Yes. Yes it does.
Do you ever wish you could be there just to call all of these people out? I mean I don’t possess the eloquence to do it right but still. Seeing people in suits calling for the destruction of others really makes me grip my palms.
If you lack eloquence you can always throw your shoe, the message is clear.
The lawmaker in question is Moshe Saada, number 28 out of 32 MKs from Likud (Israeli elections fix an order for each party, and legislative seats are awarded by that order).
He gave an interview on Channel 14, which is generally regarded as extremely right wing in Israel. Ahmad Tibi, number 1 on the Ta’al list, was the one who called him out for the statement:
Moshe Saada said this in response to the article:
The full interview is here on youtube (In Hebrew, no translation available).
He only said it once in a 13 minute interview and every other instance he’s talking explicitly about Hamas (L’hashmid Ha’Hamas). I’m guessing it was him searching for a word to include both Hamas and PIJ, but that might be too generous. But anyone thinking this is an official policy of Israel and that’s the way forward is delusional - almost every country on Earth has extremist members of their legislature.
Funny how when it comes to Israeli extremists we all discuss nuance and how complicated and messy politics and language is but when it comes to extremists in resistance organizations it’s immediately assumed that what they say colours the entire resistance.
Which extremists in resistance orgs are you referencing?
Cough-Hamas-cough
Lol it’s always so fun that they’ll speak in code but never acknowledge the actual abhorrence of the things they support.
Who is “they”?
Everyone who supports Hamas, like the poster above is doing by referring to them as a “resistance group” with “a few radicals.”
So… You didn’t understand the point that was made. Aight
Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to the continued illegal occupation of Palestinian territories by Israel and the corruption of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. That’s literally a resistance group. Nobody said they weren’t also culpable in some heinous shit but Israel has several politicians in ministerial positions calling for genocide, just with different words like, “Clear them out” or “significantly reduce the population of Gazans”. And of the two Israel is the one with the power to do it. So yeah that’s who I’m going to worry about.
Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to the continued illegal occupation of Palestinian territories
Hamas was literally formed because the Palestinian government was becoming too secular and was too interested in peace with Israel.
Here is an interview, with quotes, and details, with a literal expert on th subject who is also Pro-Palestinian.
How Hamas got elected:
KEAR: The key Fatah people - most of Fatah are living in the diaspora. They’re the ones living in the four-story houses, driving around in their gold Mercedes. They’re not experiencing the day-to-day privations of the occupation, whereas Hamas - they’re a product of the occupation. You can see them walking in the streets. You can see them at the market. People may not necessarily agree with their narrative, with the - as an Islamist movement. They get a lot of respect for the fact that they live amongst the community.
ARABLOUEI: As the first intifada went on, many Palestinians became more and more frustrated not only with the occupation but with the PLO/Fatah as it attempted to negotiate a two-state solution with Israel.
ELGINDY: The reality was that Fatah and some of the smaller parties were interested in joining a peace process that would result in a compromise situation of a West Bank and Gaza state.
KEAR: And certainly by this stage, 1987, 20 years of occupation - what have the PLO done? When I say PLO, what has Fatah done? Nothing, virtually. We’ve been fighting for 20 years, resisting for 20 years. Nothing has changed. In fact, it’s actually gotten worse, where we are further away from an independent state than we’ve ever been before.
Israel did not become aggressive to Hamas until after they began terrorist activities.
BACONI: “Hamas Contained: The Rise And Pacification Of Palestinian Resistance.” When Hamas was established out of that structure and it began to engage in resistance activities…
ARABLOUEI: Like attacks on military posts and abducting Israeli soldiers.
BACONI: …Immediately, Israel’s approach to dealing with Hamas changed, and it stopped being one of approval. It started being an antagonistic relationship because obviously now it’s a resistance party.
HACHAM: In retrospective, I think this was - I call it the original sin of the Israeli authorities - Israeli security authorities that did not understand that period of time what can be developed of this innocent organization movement, al-Mujama al-Islamiya.
This frustration and aggression is also detailed in the original Hamas charter
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
You don’t have to agree with Israel’s government, response, or how this war is being prosecuted, to understand that
1: Hamas is an islamic terror organization that usurped a government and denies democracy to millions
2: Hamas cannot and will not back down, because Jihad is their sole purpose for existing
3: A two state solution was one-track, and is always infinitely more possible with any other Palestinian leadership.
Support for Hamas is always wrong. Gazans who support Hamas today are wrong, but they do not deserve to be killed or to suffer as they have been.
Lmao, you’re still trying to tie Hamas of 2023 to Hamas of 1987. Even the article you cite has the expert calling it a resistance organization. Then you add in that Jihad is their only purpose for existing. That’s you. Not them. This isn’t AQ/ISIS. They have one, very clear, reasonable demand that we are bending over backwards to avoid. If Israel ended their occupation and submitted to a UN mission for peacekeeping and elections Hamas would lose all of it’s reason for existence. Believe it or not, people don’t like to commit suicide or murder. They have to be driven to it. Militaries do it by training and indoctrination, resistance groups just hoover up broken people who were Indoctrinated by oppression.
Which is why the number one way of ending political violence always has been and always will be bringing the group into the decision making process if it’s at all reasonable. That’s why you see a peace process in Colombia, but cult deprogramming and military action with ISIS. As long as conservatives can count on sheep like you running around shouting, “they just hate us for no reason!” They will have cover to continue the cycle of oppression.
That’s because they’re politicians in a political structure where different views exist and matter.
As opposed to a group of insurgents where their level of extremism is irrelevant. If you’re a part of the group willing to resort to mass murder and kidnapping you’re in the “too extreme” group already.
Asking for a nuanced view of “resistance fighters” is like asking for a nuanced view of serial killers, they’re all a problem. Trying to identify which serial killer did it for the correct reasons or doesn’t really want to kill people but does anyways is a ridiculous concept.
So mass arrests of protestors and holding them without charge is what?
And they’re literally committing genocide in front of your eyes.
At what point do you figure it out?
Fuck Hamas. Talk to me about Fatah and Hezbollah.
I support palestine but this kind of reporting definitely seems dishonest. There absolutely is an argument to be made about it being a slip up and a showing of true colors, but saying this is clear evidence for the intent of a genocide is dishonest and only hurting the movement to free palestine. Thanks for pointing out that it was the only time in the interview where he says gazans, not hamas.
No, it is as clear as yet another GOP representative saying we should ban abortion. That is obviously their party’s position. This is not the first Likuud member to outright call for a genocide. It is obviously the position of the Likuud party. Who happens to control the military and police in both Palestine and Israel.
Dishonest? The lawmaker literally said these words.
There’s a translated video in the article that doesn’t leave much room for creative interpretation like steventheIDF is suggesting https://twitter.com/i/status/1742415488519393502
And keep in mind that the dishonesty extends to the OP, of which there are many in this sub with the motive to disseminate inaccurate rage bait articles.
Good thing you’re always out there on every article to defend israel against the dishonest OP’s.
This, but unironically.
anyone thinking this is an official policy of Israel
…need only look at their actions to confirm that
Pretty sure if Israel really wanted to kill every Gazan things would look dramatically different right now.
Are you aware of the irony of using Holocaust denial tactics to defend Israel?
it wouldn’t look “dramatically” different, maybe slightly. I think its more they want gazans gone and don’t care about how many people they kill.
Not really. The next step would be a systematic approach that could not be politically defended. They’re doing as much as they think they can get away with. And if, as several influential and high ranking Israelis have said, they’re clearing land for more settlements then it’s the ethnic cleansing form of genocide.
That is a possibility but we will have to remember this conversation in a year or two and see if they have placed settlements in Gaza or not.
No. You don’t just wait for the genocide to be complete. You act now.
Ok what do you want to do right now?
UN peacekeeping mission in the short term. Within the year remove Israeli police and military from all settlements. At that point Hamas can accept a peace and elections or lose any goodwill from Gazans and the UN can conduct a standard counter insurgency.
Imagine if everyone in the world assumed that everything that came out of Marjorie Taylor Greene’s mouth was official US policy
Context matters. If she says abortion is bad, it deserves to be reported, and is, while abortion policy is actively being dismantled - because she is a lawmaker in the party actively working towards that (and in power for one of the legislatures).
Just like this guy’s words matter while it’s being supported by other people like Ben-Givir and while they’re actively in the process of doing genocide stuff.
In context of everything else that’s happening, other remarks by his party, and the availability of “It’s clear to everyone that militants in Gaza must be destroyed.” There is no excuse. It’s just another layer of evidence.
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Sure there are some extremists in almost every political faction, but were his comments denounced by others in his party?
Ok, so post reported.
On the one hand it’s a factual article about events that are clearly true. On the other it’s sensationalized and making a mountain out of a molehill.
The quality of the discussion on this article is bottom of the barrel “I hate Israel and you should too”.
I hate genocide regardless of who is committing it
It honestly seems pretty clear only to apartheid regimes hell bent on ethnic cleansing.
I have a question but I want to make it clear that I am asking in good faith as I fumble my way through understanding the complexities of geopolitics, and I am not casting aspersions or pushing a conspiracy theory. I am especially not taking a position in defense of Israel, or against their accountability to the ICC.
Okay, that said: Is South Africa pushing this at the behest of Russia, like as a BRICS thing? The only other thing I can think of is that this helps improve the image of an embattled ANC at home.
I get why they have a unique perspective given their defeat of apartheid, and that’s likely the steelman for why they are advancing this, but that just seems like too pat of an answer.
I would love additional perspectives on this.
As horrible as South African apartheid was, what is happening to the Palestinans is degrees worse.
Ordinary South Africans still remember the deep damage Apartheid perpetrators inflicted on us, it’s poisonous remnants are still affecting us as a country to this day as we try to heal as a people.
Now imagine South Africans seeing what Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians, now and in the past. It’s a punch to the gut, a searing pain, to see what was done to us and our parents being done to Palestinians. We’re seeing a gross refined version of Apartheid that was inflicted on us being inflicted on the Palestinians. And largely the so called west/ global north is cheering for the Israeli Apartheid regime commiting genocide. It makes me sick to my core.
For these reasons there is immense pressure on our government by civil society to denounce Israel and support Palestine. It does help that the ANC has always been pro Palestinian in the first place. Also it’s elections this year so the ANC definitely wants some good pr too.
I would say that these points factor in way more than any link to Russia or China
I’ve heard Irish people say they support Palestine for similar reasons. They didn’t go through an apartheid, but they went through oppressive colonization being done on them.
I suspect whats going on here is that the South Africans know what kind of people Zionists are, since the old apartheid government used to partner with them.
It’s probably a similar reason to why the european country that first asked for sanctions againat Israel was the Republic of Ireland, who like Palestine and until the early XX Century was occupied and oppressed by a larger neighbhour, in their case the United Kingdom: when you suffered it yourself or grew up hearing the stories from those who suffered it, it’s a lot easier to understand the true depth and hurt of what’s being done to a people in a similar situation as you, your paraents or even grandparents were once in.
It also explains why Germany still unwaveringly supports Israel: they naturally empathise with the strong military power that’s trying to control a “lesser race” in a territory they occupy - it’s painfully obvious that “never again” wasn’t at all about the violent genocide of a weaker ethnic group by a stronger one driven by cold violent extreme racism (the kind who describes another etnic group as untermenschen/human animals) and greed, but was only ever about Germans vs Jews, hence Germany ending up again involved in a Holocaust on the side of the genociders.
An additional perspective is that the Apartheid government became an ally of convenience with Israel to the point that they created a joint nuclear weapons program together. Then you have the political pressure African union states have for maintaining robust trading agreements with Arab states. There’s a ton of history there
Thank you for this!
Wow I had forgotten all about that.
I don’t think it’s a BRICS thing at all. It’s what their own population want. South Africa has long been critical of apartheid in Israel.
Moreover back when South Africa was under Apartheid, for a long time Israel was one of its main trading partners even after the west had imposed sanctions, and it also contributed directly to the white military. They eventually joined the boycott but the damage was done.
I think South Africans just have a more defined (and more recent) sense of pride when it comes to standing up against Apartheid. They recognize the rhetoric and the legal justifications from Israel’s right wing. I had the privilege of studying law under someone who helped to right the ship in South Africa, an American constitutional law scholar who worked with President Mandela to help write their new Constitution in the late 1990’s. They are immensely proud of it as a document that secures human rights for people.
As an aside, just as Hamas must be thought of as separate from the Palestinians, the far right Israeli leadership needs to be thought of distinct from the Israeli people.
There are plenty of people in Israel who think their government has been going too far, and there are plenty more people who think their response after the attacks were justified but have since gone too far.
The danger is not really Israel or Zionism, it is nationalism, a perversion of patriotism that works to justify people’s worst emotional reactions.
Only on Lemmy would you need to add all of those disclaimers before asking a legitimate question.
Have you just never experienced what manners are good online discourse look like? I admit its rare thing, but your statement reads like you’re looking at a filet mignon and asking why its missing a leaf of iceberg lettuce, a dollop of ketchup, and a sesame seed bun.
Let’s just say that, hypothetically, the OP didn’t hold a pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli viewpoint. In that case, would they have to lie and add those disclaimers in order to be “well mannered”?
My point is that anyone should be able to ask a simple question about why South Africa are the ones filing this case at the ICJ. It shouldn’t matter what their overarching beliefs are, nor should they be required to submit their liberal bona fides before they are allowed ask the question.
That’s not good manners, that’s an echo chamber.
Let’s just say that, hypothetically, the OP didn’t hold a pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli viewpoint. In that case, would they have to lie and add those disclaimers in order to be “well mannered”?
You’re putting too much emphasis on the “manners” part and not enough on the “good discourse” part.
Part of communicating is not only the idea you’re trying to discuss, but the context of where the requestor is in understanding the topic, and the tone the requestor is intending for the further discussion. I think you’re seeing the “disclaimers” as you call them as apologies, or some kind of shibboleth or dog whistle to those who may answer that the requestor is part of the “in group”. If so, I think that’s your mistake.
Instead the requestor is opening up to be vulnerable as a cost in search of truth. They’re admitting their gaps in knowledge and calling out places where they have some understanding. They’re giving a short map of their “swiss cheese” understanding of the topic. In effect they’re saying “I only know a few bits. There is a lot I don’t know, but I’d like to learn”.
My point is that anyone should be able to ask a simple question about why South Africa are the ones filing this case at the ICJ. It shouldn’t matter what their overarching beliefs are
Sure. That would be fantastic, but if you’ve been on the internet for more than 5 minutes you’ll experience its littered with bad faith or loaded questions. People asking provocative questions simply spoiling for a fight or to “stir the pot”, trolls. Blame the rise of “talking points” the pre-canned ideology which requires no critical thinking, just call and response if you like. The reality is that this is most of political discussions on the internet. Instead this is a rare example of honest discussion, and you mistake it for something else.
nor should they be required to submit their liberal bona fides before they are allowed ask the question.
As I said above, you’re misreading the poster and think what you’re seeing is a credentialing exercise. I don’t believe it is.
That’s not good manners, that’s an echo chamber.
Luckily, I believe the error is in your assessment of the situation instead of the content or intent.
The point is that what you described is not unique to lemmy.
Perhaps, but I was conditioned more by reddit than Lemmy, as were likely most of us.
Or a person sees shitbots parroting Kremlin and CCP talking points all across the web and wants to avoid getting lumped in with them.
That’s the language of the team on defense!
So they are fast tracking from a Madagaskarplan to a Wannseekonferenz level, just with the roles of the players replaced.
If anyone should keep their fingers out of such ideas, it is Israel.
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