I mean, at least you acknowledged that I said it this time. Even if I’m now slightly less convinced that you deliberately aren’t getting it, because you still didn’t seem to understand what I was actually arguing.
They say it takes exponentially more effort to debunk bullshit than it does to spread it, and when I’m making a real effort to make a point and your rebuttal is basically “nuh uh,” that seems to hold true. Fortunately, I don’t have to type out the argument myself when I can just post Charlynn Teter’s excellent essay, sources included, about it instead. https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2021/01/30/no-more-lies-the-truth-about-raising-the-minimum-wage/ I look forward to how you “nuh uh” this.
First, and least important (but still important), this article is out of date
In California, 96 percent of workers who would benefit from the proposed minimum wage increase to $15 are over the age of 20, and 58 percent are over the age of 30
This data is not accurate after wage increases
Second, this article has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. I have nothing against raising the minimum wage. I think it should be tied to local cost of living and reassessed every 2 years.
What we’re talking about is that raising the minimum wage would not provide the price pressure on the labor market you think it will, because there are already more jobs than people and wages are already rising as a result (though slowing, in which case your argument may someday become relevant again).
The market is unlikely to shift away from labor for over a generation, barring some ludicrous advancement in AI and robotics. Our population is shrinking while our economy is growing. That’s bad for employers in price-sensitive markets but great for literally all employees (until they get old, but whatcha gonna do).
Raise the minimum wage. Go nuts. It won’t affect average wages in any significant way, because not enough people are on the minimum wage.
I appreciate that you want more frequent adjustments to the minimum wage. I am in full agreement. I think it should be assessed on a national level more so than local, because making it piecemeal like that leaves lots of open opportunities for bad actors to exploit it (think gerrymandered congressional maps), but I do appreciate that as far as that goes, we are largely in agreement.
That said, Teter’s essay addresses most of the other claims in your comment, with both argumentation and sources. Maybe you should read more of that and try addressing some of her other rebuttals to your points, rather than just ignoring them and repeating yourself endlessly? Then you might at least look a little bit less disingenuous.
This does not imply a lack of wage growth, quite the opposite.
Literally the first sentence
Wage growth has been a bright spot for workers (and perhaps a challenge for business owners), but not when measured against inflation.
Whether or not it’s enough wage growth isnt what were discussing. I’d love to see wages rise more. This growth means raising min wage won’t do much tho.
What’s the point of discussing if wages have grown without factoring in inflation? If wages increase, but inflation increases by the same amount, then leaving out the latter when arguing the former seems a little fucking dishonest, no? And of course it didn’t occur to you to read past the first sentence to see where she makes that exact same point… or you deliberately ignored it to keep doubling down on the points I’ve already debunked.
And you’ve also admitted that there are still workers making the federal minimum wage, so it doesn’t seem like this wage growth you think is such a trump card has been benefiting them at all. As I pointed out earlier, a third of the workforce is making less than $15, meaning that all of them would get a pay bump from raising the minimum, not just the ones who are already on the minimum wage. I have made this point multiple times and you still refuse to acknowledge it.
Honestly, you’re arguing dishonestly enough that I straight up don’t believe you when you say you’d love to see wages rise more.
You are ridiculously uninformed while being supremely overconfident in your baseless opinions.
Giant fuckin oof on your part.
Here’s a simplified explanation of how the minimum wage can affect the labor economy:
Employment Levels:
Effect on Employment: When the government raises the minimum wage, it can lead to increased labor costs for businesses, particularly those in low-wage industries like retail and hospitality. This can result in a reduction in the demand for labor, as some businesses may cut jobs to offset the higher costs.
Effect on Unemployment: Critics argue that increasing the minimum wage may lead to higher unemployment, especially among low-skilled workers. Employers facing higher wage costs might be less willing to hire or retain workers, particularly those with fewer skills or less experience.
Wage Distribution:
Positive Impact on Low-Wage Workers: On the flip side, proponents of minimum wage increases argue that it helps low-wage workers by providing them with a higher income. This can contribute to poverty reduction and improve the standard of living for those at the bottom of the wage scale.
Potential Compression of Wage Structure: However, some economists caution that raising the minimum wage might lead to a compression of the overall wage structure. If the minimum wage increases significantly, there could be a ripple effect causing a narrowing of the wage gap between low-skilled and higher-skilled workers.
Inflation and Prices:
Inflationary Pressures: An increase in the minimum wage can contribute to inflationary pressures. As businesses face higher labor costs, they may pass on these costs to consumers through higher prices for goods and services. This, in turn, can impact the purchasing power of consumers.
Productivity and Innovation:
Incentive for Productivity Improvement: A higher minimum wage can create an incentive for businesses to invest in productivity improvements and automation to offset increased labor costs. This can lead to advancements in technology and innovation in the long run.
Regional and Industry Variances:
Differential Impact: The impact of changes in the minimum wage can vary across regions and industries. In areas with a lower cost of living, the same increase in the minimum wage might have a different impact compared to higher-cost regions.
The effects of minimum wage changes on the overall labor economy are complex and multifaceted and to offhandedly call it “NOT RELEVANT” is beyond moronic.
Might be time to go back and look at your highschool econ homework.
It’s like the 3rd or 4th time I’ve explained this with increasing levels of detail.
Dude is just a ficking moron IMO and completely dishonest in how he discusses topics. He just ignores anything that might show his view to be the slightest bit incorrect and barrels forward… Or he’s a chat bot.
It’s at least a little bit interesting IMO that this is something of a pattern I’ve noticed. I had plenty of stupid arguments on Reddit, but at least those ones would change over time as new information was introduced and responded to. Here, it seems way more common for people to just ignore your rebuttals to their points and just repeat them without adding anything new. Are people here just more stubborn, or what?
I mean, at least you acknowledged that I said it this time. Even if I’m now slightly less convinced that you deliberately aren’t getting it, because you still didn’t seem to understand what I was actually arguing.
They say it takes exponentially more effort to debunk bullshit than it does to spread it, and when I’m making a real effort to make a point and your rebuttal is basically “nuh uh,” that seems to hold true. Fortunately, I don’t have to type out the argument myself when I can just post Charlynn Teter’s excellent essay, sources included, about it instead. https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2021/01/30/no-more-lies-the-truth-about-raising-the-minimum-wage/ I look forward to how you “nuh uh” this.
Told ya he’s a troll.
A verbose troll, but still a troll.
So, couple things.
First, and least important (but still important), this article is out of date
This data is not accurate after wage increases
Second, this article has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. I have nothing against raising the minimum wage. I think it should be tied to local cost of living and reassessed every 2 years.
What we’re talking about is that raising the minimum wage would not provide the price pressure on the labor market you think it will, because there are already more jobs than people and wages are already rising as a result (though slowing, in which case your argument may someday become relevant again).
The market is unlikely to shift away from labor for over a generation, barring some ludicrous advancement in AI and robotics. Our population is shrinking while our economy is growing. That’s bad for employers in price-sensitive markets but great for literally all employees (until they get old, but whatcha gonna do).
Raise the minimum wage. Go nuts. It won’t affect average wages in any significant way, because not enough people are on the minimum wage.
I appreciate that you want more frequent adjustments to the minimum wage. I am in full agreement. I think it should be assessed on a national level more so than local, because making it piecemeal like that leaves lots of open opportunities for bad actors to exploit it (think gerrymandered congressional maps), but I do appreciate that as far as that goes, we are largely in agreement.
That said, Teter’s essay addresses most of the other claims in your comment, with both argumentation and sources. Maybe you should read more of that and try addressing some of her other rebuttals to your points, rather than just ignoring them and repeating yourself endlessly? Then you might at least look a little bit less disingenuous.
I read the article
She does not discuss minimum wage’s relevancy in an era of massive wage increases. In 2021, wages weren’t growing. Not were they before then.
And they still aren’t, so why should she discuss that?
Wages have absolutely grown quite a lot.
Top result on Google. https://www.ppic.org/blog/wage-growth-is-struggling-to-keep-up-with-inflation/ Got another “nuh uh” for me, or are you going to make an actual effort this time?
This does not imply a lack of wage growth, quite the opposite.
Literally the first sentence
Whether or not it’s enough wage growth isnt what were discussing. I’d love to see wages rise more. This growth means raising min wage won’t do much tho.
What’s the point of discussing if wages have grown without factoring in inflation? If wages increase, but inflation increases by the same amount, then leaving out the latter when arguing the former seems a little fucking dishonest, no? And of course it didn’t occur to you to read past the first sentence to see where she makes that exact same point… or you deliberately ignored it to keep doubling down on the points I’ve already debunked.
And you’ve also admitted that there are still workers making the federal minimum wage, so it doesn’t seem like this wage growth you think is such a trump card has been benefiting them at all. As I pointed out earlier, a third of the workforce is making less than $15, meaning that all of them would get a pay bump from raising the minimum, not just the ones who are already on the minimum wage. I have made this point multiple times and you still refuse to acknowledge it.
Honestly, you’re arguing dishonestly enough that I straight up don’t believe you when you say you’d love to see wages rise more.
You are ridiculously uninformed while being supremely overconfident in your baseless opinions.
Giant fuckin oof on your part.
Here’s a simplified explanation of how the minimum wage can affect the labor economy:
Employment Levels:
Effect on Employment: When the government raises the minimum wage, it can lead to increased labor costs for businesses, particularly those in low-wage industries like retail and hospitality. This can result in a reduction in the demand for labor, as some businesses may cut jobs to offset the higher costs.
Effect on Unemployment: Critics argue that increasing the minimum wage may lead to higher unemployment, especially among low-skilled workers. Employers facing higher wage costs might be less willing to hire or retain workers, particularly those with fewer skills or less experience.
Wage Distribution:
Positive Impact on Low-Wage Workers: On the flip side, proponents of minimum wage increases argue that it helps low-wage workers by providing them with a higher income. This can contribute to poverty reduction and improve the standard of living for those at the bottom of the wage scale.
Potential Compression of Wage Structure: However, some economists caution that raising the minimum wage might lead to a compression of the overall wage structure. If the minimum wage increases significantly, there could be a ripple effect causing a narrowing of the wage gap between low-skilled and higher-skilled workers.
Inflation and Prices:
Inflationary Pressures: An increase in the minimum wage can contribute to inflationary pressures. As businesses face higher labor costs, they may pass on these costs to consumers through higher prices for goods and services. This, in turn, can impact the purchasing power of consumers. Productivity and Innovation:
Incentive for Productivity Improvement: A higher minimum wage can create an incentive for businesses to invest in productivity improvements and automation to offset increased labor costs. This can lead to advancements in technology and innovation in the long run.
Regional and Industry Variances:
Differential Impact: The impact of changes in the minimum wage can vary across regions and industries. In areas with a lower cost of living, the same increase in the minimum wage might have a different impact compared to higher-cost regions.
The effects of minimum wage changes on the overall labor economy are complex and multifaceted and to offhandedly call it “NOT RELEVANT” is beyond moronic.
Might be time to go back and look at your highschool econ homework.
I mean, if he went to high school in a red state, maybe his high school econ homework would explain why he’s like this.
It’s like the 3rd or 4th time I’ve explained this with increasing levels of detail.
Dude is just a ficking moron IMO and completely dishonest in how he discusses topics. He just ignores anything that might show his view to be the slightest bit incorrect and barrels forward… Or he’s a chat bot.
It’s at least a little bit interesting IMO that this is something of a pattern I’ve noticed. I had plenty of stupid arguments on Reddit, but at least those ones would change over time as new information was introduced and responded to. Here, it seems way more common for people to just ignore your rebuttals to their points and just repeat them without adding anything new. Are people here just more stubborn, or what?
Now that you mention it, yea I have noticed it as well.
Dunno what it is.