A UBI program was implemented in a part of Ontario to study it’s impact.
Results showed that people were able to cover their basic essential needs and the vast majority were able to improve their career by finally being able to spend time getting training for better job opportunities and improve their living conditions as a whole. It also allowed them to get certain healthcare services that aren’t covered by OHIP like dental care.
It also allowed them to get certain healthcare services that aren’t covered by OHIP like dental care.
That sounds like a good reason to expand OHIP, which doesn’t require a UBI.
As for the rest, I wonder to what extent it went that way because the participants knew it was a short term experiment. Pensioners are not the epitome of productivity.
I have followed the UBI subject for the past ten or fifteen years. I used to be an advocate for it. It was precisely through reading and thinking about it that I started to question whether it really was a better alternative to our current welfare programs.
It stands to reason that if extending OAS to people over 60yo would lead to more people retiring early and stop contributing significantly to our tax base, then a UBI which essentially means extending OAS to every adult would have a similar effect, only multiplied. And with fewer workers, how do we pay for UBI and everything else?
I’m sure there’s plenty of room for improvement to our existing welfare programs, but that doesn’t automatically mean extending them to every healthy person is the only solution or the best one.
Are you opposed to giving everyone an equal opportunity in life?
Giving everybody a good opportunity in life doesn’t mean a UBI, and a UBI doesn’t mean giving everybody a good opportunity either. It’s a false dichotomy.
Ah wait hold on. You’re taking about UBI applying only to retired people?
I’m talking about it applying to everyone that’s independent. Whether it’s a 16 year old that is emancipated because they can’t live with their parents for whatever reason, anyone over 18, or even retired people.
Heres a more pressing quandry. What are we going to do about the fact that Technology continues to kill more jobs than it creates, and is starting to do so at a faster rate. There isnt enough livable wage paying jobs left to allow everyone access to proper food and housing.
Edit: Also, UBI doesnt need to fulfill ALL needs, there are many luxuries and ways to better ones life and social standing that would provide enough of a carrot for enough of the population to seek ways to contribute. The flip side that people who are worried about societal contribution I have 2 points:
1: Do half of the highest paying jobs we do now contribute all that much to society? It really seems nowasays that the highest paying jobs include the highest levels of exploitation
2: If people are freed from being forced to work to pay their bills, more people would ve free to volunteer, our society is so work heavy its incredibly hard to convince oneself to donate what little time one has left afterwards to a volunteer organization
What are we going to do about the fact that Technology continues to kill more jobs than it creates, and is starting to do so at a faster rate.
Yeah, that is a big deal.
There isnt enough livable wage paying jobs left to allow everyone access to proper food and housing.
For starters I think that minimum wages are too low in North America. Anybody working full time should be able to afford a place to live without roommates. Housing cannot be an investment vehicle if we want it to be affordable.
If people are freed from being forced to work to pay their bills, more people would ve free to volunteer
Some pensioners do some volunteering, but on average the amount they contribute to society is a small fraction of what they did when they were working full time. Society needs enough full time workers to fund the ongoing cost of a first-world nation.
A UBI program was implemented in a part of Ontario to study it’s impact.
Results showed that people were able to cover their basic essential needs and the vast majority were able to improve their career by finally being able to spend time getting training for better job opportunities and improve their living conditions as a whole. It also allowed them to get certain healthcare services that aren’t covered by OHIP like dental care.
Sources:
https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/full/10.3138/cpp.37.3.283
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgotten-universal-basic-income-experiment
That sounds like a good reason to expand OHIP, which doesn’t require a UBI.
As for the rest, I wonder to what extent it went that way because the participants knew it was a short term experiment. Pensioners are not the epitome of productivity.
Why are you playing devil’s advocate? Are you opposed to giving everyone an equal opportunity in life?
Have you even read the links I provided to you? At least read the article?
I have followed the UBI subject for the past ten or fifteen years. I used to be an advocate for it. It was precisely through reading and thinking about it that I started to question whether it really was a better alternative to our current welfare programs.
It stands to reason that if extending OAS to people over 60yo would lead to more people retiring early and stop contributing significantly to our tax base, then a UBI which essentially means extending OAS to every adult would have a similar effect, only multiplied. And with fewer workers, how do we pay for UBI and everything else?
I’m sure there’s plenty of room for improvement to our existing welfare programs, but that doesn’t automatically mean extending them to every healthy person is the only solution or the best one.
Giving everybody a good opportunity in life doesn’t mean a UBI, and a UBI doesn’t mean giving everybody a good opportunity either. It’s a false dichotomy.
Ah wait hold on. You’re taking about UBI applying only to retired people?
I’m talking about it applying to everyone that’s independent. Whether it’s a 16 year old that is emancipated because they can’t live with their parents for whatever reason, anyone over 18, or even retired people.
Heres a more pressing quandry. What are we going to do about the fact that Technology continues to kill more jobs than it creates, and is starting to do so at a faster rate. There isnt enough livable wage paying jobs left to allow everyone access to proper food and housing.
Edit: Also, UBI doesnt need to fulfill ALL needs, there are many luxuries and ways to better ones life and social standing that would provide enough of a carrot for enough of the population to seek ways to contribute. The flip side that people who are worried about societal contribution I have 2 points:
1: Do half of the highest paying jobs we do now contribute all that much to society? It really seems nowasays that the highest paying jobs include the highest levels of exploitation
2: If people are freed from being forced to work to pay their bills, more people would ve free to volunteer, our society is so work heavy its incredibly hard to convince oneself to donate what little time one has left afterwards to a volunteer organization
Yeah, that is a big deal.
For starters I think that minimum wages are too low in North America. Anybody working full time should be able to afford a place to live without roommates. Housing cannot be an investment vehicle if we want it to be affordable.
Some pensioners do some volunteering, but on average the amount they contribute to society is a small fraction of what they did when they were working full time. Society needs enough full time workers to fund the ongoing cost of a first-world nation.
Playing devil’s advocate is important for understanding both nuance and thinking dialetically.
How many times do you need to see the evidence? You just hand wave it away and demand more proof.
Fuck off if you aren’t here to have a real discussion.