That logic doesn’t flow, though. You need to compare number of current illegal users vs number of users before it was illegal.
Have you heard of the US prohibition on alcohol? It’s a pretty famous counterexample to your argument showing that it absolutely does not reduce usage.
Normally I’d agree, but cigarettes in particular are a product that is designed to be as addictive as possible with a laundry list of negative health impacts and virtually zero positive ones. Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you, there’s a strong case to be made for banning them outright.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you,
That’s part of responsible use. I’m ok with only letting smokers smoke in specialty ventilated & filtered areas. Easy for me to say, I don’t smoke. But if any adult wants to make an informed decision to, that should be their choice.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Maybe they could just regulate what they put in them instead? Good tobacco is pretty tasty and not insanely addictive. Why not just basically put them in legacy mode?
They’ve already hit a crazy stride with vapes. Maybe they could do a 5-10 year plan where the clean it up while also gaining the foothold that they have with younger people?
Nah, nicotine is very addictive by itself. But yes, the additives make it even worse.
I agree though, it’s disappointing that governments don’t have better labeling regulations on “sinful” products. Alcohol: why not require a list of ingredients and calories? Cigarettes: same thing, show what it has been processed with, etc? Like how the EU used to require showing how much tar and nicotine each cigarette contained, but realized all the producers started to fake the testing machines by designing holes in the filters (like “light” cigs) where the user’s lips would otherwise cover when smoking.
Cigarettes != tobacco. Tobacco is an ingredient in cigarettes, and not the only one, not by a long shot. Literally dozens of additives are included in cigarettes, many of which are designed to make them more addictive.
Secondly, modern tobacco absolutely was “made” the way it is, first through selective breeding and then genetic modification to (among other things) increase Nicotine content. Much in the same way that modern weed is far stronger than the stuff grown 50 years ago, so too is tobacco.
The theory that when you smoke, the nicotine binds to surfaces the smoke touches, causing cancer to anyone who comes near surfaces that nicotine has touched.
It was a “truth” run around in the 80s as we were discovering the nature of radiation, so lots of war on drug “research” papers got published functionally saying nicotine and radiation are the same thing.
I mean, nicotine does saturate things when you smoke in an enclosed area. It’s impossible to paint over the stained walls of a smoker’s house without chemically stripping them first, because all the accumulated tar will just seep through the paint and leave brown stains. There’s no way that shit’s healthy.
I spent half my life legally smoking tobacco and illegally smoking weed.
I moved a quarter of a country away for the mental health of legally smoking tobacco and legally smoking weed.
I WILL NOT be dragged back into a life where one of my vices give me crippling fear of imprisonment.
Get off your fucking high horse. Mind your own fucking business. Stop asserting your will over others. Live your own fucking life. Let me live my fucking life.
I’m glad I live in a country with universal healthcare. Your point is made completely erroneous by the fact that everyone’s taxes are paying for your cancer treatment. This “fuck you i’ll do what i want” mentality is literally antisocial conservative garbage.
Because African American smokers tend to favor menthol over other types of cigarettes.
“In the 1950s, less than 10% of Black smokers used menthol cigarettes. Today, after decades of tobacco industry targeting, that number is 85%. Menthol cigarettes continue to be heavily advertised, widely available and priced cheaper in Black communities."
Black people tend to primarily smoke menthol, disproportionate to other races. I’m too lazy to link, but you can Google it and find studies pretty easily.
This apparently is an objectionable point to bring up… not sure if your downvotes are the “all or nothing” aspect, or the spotlighting of the blatant racist aspect, but it seems people don’t want to see this at face value :/
I’m with you though. The selective targeting is wrong. Equal ban or no ban is the right position to take IMHO.
I down voted it because I don’t think the government should ban substances. Not cigarettes, not alcohol, not marijuana, not psychedelics, and probably not a bunch of other drugs too. The government’s job is not to play mommy and daddy for a nation of adults. Our citizens are entirely too eager to strip away their own liberty these days.
The specific ban in question on this particular post isn’t a general matter though… it’s targeting minorities…
That kinda makes it a moot point in my opinion on wether or not prohibition is appropriate in general, because regardless of where you fall on the matter of bans or liberties, the specificity of the intended targets is wildly inappropriate, because it’s racist/homophobic, so I kinda disregarded the last point they made entirely :)
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Banning drugs or alcohol has never worked. The demand will still be there. People will turn to the black market instead if it gets banned.
There is a whole arc in the Battlestar Galactica reboot series that masterfully illustrates this topic.
Yeah, which is why illegal drugs have more users than legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco). Except they don’t.
Their argument was that banning cigarettes wouldn’t eliminate their use, only drive people to continue doing it through other methods.
What does your comment have to do with that…? Nobody said there would somehow be more users than before, just that people would continue doing it…
My argument is that since illegal drugs have significantly fewer users, prohibition does reduce usage.
That logic doesn’t flow, though. You need to compare number of current illegal users vs number of users before it was illegal.
Have you heard of the US prohibition on alcohol? It’s a pretty famous counterexample to your argument showing that it absolutely does not reduce usage.
The same number of people, as a percentage, smoke marijuana as smoke cigarettes. Marijuana use is federally illegal and illegal in most states.
So no, it really doesn’t reduce usage. Price and perceived risk are the two factors that reduce usage the most.
I don’t know about the USA, but I see tobacco smokers every day and very rarely see marijuana smokers.
Most people smoking weed aren’t just doing it out in the open like tobacco users
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Well, then the prohibition has pretty much fulfilled its purpose.
Or, how about we let people put whatever they want into their own body?
Normally I’d agree, but cigarettes in particular are a product that is designed to be as addictive as possible with a laundry list of negative health impacts and virtually zero positive ones. Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you, there’s a strong case to be made for banning them outright.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Yes. Yes they should.
Fuck prohibition.
Prohibition=Oppression.
That’s part of responsible use. I’m ok with only letting smokers smoke in specialty ventilated & filtered areas. Easy for me to say, I don’t smoke. But if any adult wants to make an informed decision to, that should be their choice.
I emphatically agree.
Maybe they could just regulate what they put in them instead? Good tobacco is pretty tasty and not insanely addictive. Why not just basically put them in legacy mode?
They’ve already hit a crazy stride with vapes. Maybe they could do a 5-10 year plan where the clean it up while also gaining the foothold that they have with younger people?
Nah, nicotine is very addictive by itself. But yes, the additives make it even worse.
I agree though, it’s disappointing that governments don’t have better labeling regulations on “sinful” products. Alcohol: why not require a list of ingredients and calories? Cigarettes: same thing, show what it has been processed with, etc? Like how the EU used to require showing how much tar and nicotine each cigarette contained, but realized all the producers started to fake the testing machines by designing holes in the filters (like “light” cigs) where the user’s lips would otherwise cover when smoking.
Bruh, you know tobacco is a plant. Right?
Alcohol needs so much work to be made.
Tobacco is a plant.
Just like weed.
So’s hemlock, what’s your point?
That noone “made it” the way it is, and if dudes gonna smoke a plant, let dude smoke a plant.
Cigarettes != tobacco. Tobacco is an ingredient in cigarettes, and not the only one, not by a long shot. Literally dozens of additives are included in cigarettes, many of which are designed to make them more addictive.
Secondly, modern tobacco absolutely was “made” the way it is, first through selective breeding and then genetic modification to (among other things) increase Nicotine content. Much in the same way that modern weed is far stronger than the stuff grown 50 years ago, so too is tobacco.
Tell that to all the smokers trying to quit who wish their younger self had not started in the first place.
Because of the children, won’t someone think of the children?!
They already aren’t allowed to smoke!
But parents are allowed to expose them to the smoke.
Do we need to ban everything that a shitty parent might not be able to keep away from their kids?
Why not expand the definition of child abuse to include these things instead of punishing people who are never around kids?
That sounds like a great idea, but it’s going to be impossible to enforce.
Vape for the same effect. I don’t want to choke on what you’re putting in your body.
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Wtf is 3rd hand smoke?
The theory that when you smoke, the nicotine binds to surfaces the smoke touches, causing cancer to anyone who comes near surfaces that nicotine has touched.
It was a “truth” run around in the 80s as we were discovering the nature of radiation, so lots of war on drug “research” papers got published functionally saying nicotine and radiation are the same thing.
I mean, nicotine does saturate things when you smoke in an enclosed area. It’s impossible to paint over the stained walls of a smoker’s house without chemically stripping them first, because all the accumulated tar will just seep through the paint and leave brown stains. There’s no way that shit’s healthy.
You mistake the word “nicotine” for the word “tar”.
2 wildly different concepts.
And thank you captain I have something to add for observing that tobacco is less healthy that a carrot.
I meant for me. I’m not sure if you were talking about people or real estate.
Are you suggesting that tar doesn’t contain nicotine or other harmful substances found in cigarettes? Because lol.
That’s okay though, I’m sure you are very special and immune to it.
So if some can’t enjoy something responsibly, no one can?
Can’t tell if you are joking or just that stupid.
Fuck you.
I spent half my life legally smoking tobacco and illegally smoking weed.
I moved a quarter of a country away for the mental health of legally smoking tobacco and legally smoking weed.
I WILL NOT be dragged back into a life where one of my vices give me crippling fear of imprisonment.
Get off your fucking high horse. Mind your own fucking business. Stop asserting your will over others. Live your own fucking life. Let me live my fucking life.
Seriously.
Stop.
Just stop.
Prohibition is horse shit.
Stop supporting prohibition.
I don’t think this person means criminalize use of cigarettes to be fair.
They would criminalize tobacco production and smuggling and there would 100*% be a black market.
Think of it more like a safety standard - prevent the sales of variations doing the most harm to public health
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Leave it to Lemmyists to downvote a comment saying that you shouldn’t be allowed to force other people to breathe poisonous smoke.
Come to Colorado! If it’s worth legalization, we are all about it.
(One of my post-legalization projects…)
There’s already too many people in Colorado.
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I’m glad I live in a country with universal healthcare. Your point is made completely erroneous by the fact that everyone’s taxes are paying for your cancer treatment. This “fuck you i’ll do what i want” mentality is literally antisocial conservative garbage.
Ok, I’ll bite. Why is banning only menthols racist?
Because African American smokers tend to favor menthol over other types of cigarettes.
“In the 1950s, less than 10% of Black smokers used menthol cigarettes. Today, after decades of tobacco industry targeting, that number is 85%. Menthol cigarettes continue to be heavily advertised, widely available and priced cheaper in Black communities."
https://www.tobaccofreekids.org/what-we-do/industry-watch/menthol-report
Because it’s doing the most harm to the most harmed demographic?
Black people tend to primarily smoke menthol, disproportionate to other races. I’m too lazy to link, but you can Google it and find studies pretty easily.
It’s why this same prohibition measure has failed in many legislative bodies many times.
This apparently is an objectionable point to bring up… not sure if your downvotes are the “all or nothing” aspect, or the spotlighting of the blatant racist aspect, but it seems people don’t want to see this at face value :/
I’m with you though. The selective targeting is wrong. Equal ban or no ban is the right position to take IMHO.
I down voted it because I don’t think the government should ban substances. Not cigarettes, not alcohol, not marijuana, not psychedelics, and probably not a bunch of other drugs too. The government’s job is not to play mommy and daddy for a nation of adults. Our citizens are entirely too eager to strip away their own liberty these days.
I agree with that.
The specific ban in question on this particular post isn’t a general matter though… it’s targeting minorities…
That kinda makes it a moot point in my opinion on wether or not prohibition is appropriate in general, because regardless of where you fall on the matter of bans or liberties, the specificity of the intended targets is wildly inappropriate, because it’s racist/homophobic, so I kinda disregarded the last point they made entirely :)
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It aint racist my guy. The chemical processes involved in menthol cigarettes increase the carcinogenic properties of the cig.
Yes, no shit cigs are bad. Menthol cigs are the worst offenders.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna42237299
Edit: lol stay mad